Daughter out of control

"Bizby38" wrote in message
et...
I'm completely at my wit's end. Today was unusual in a few
aspects -- how quickly she went from 0 to full tilt tantrum for
one. And the way she was yelling at me and calling me names
when I'm not the one who she'd had the original problem with.
But other aspects are all too common -- throwing a tantrum
when she doesn't get exactly what she wants, sassing and
showing us disrespect, failing to see that her actions are having
negative consequences, etc.

I'm at a loss as to what to do, and as to what I/we have done
wrong up to this point. Even reading what I've written here makes
me rather ashamed. She behaves well in school, but her behavior
has gotten her in trouble with friend's mothers, and there is at
least one mother who won't let her daughter play with mine
anymore. Please Help!!!!

Lots of parents use time outs. I think it is often used inappropriately,
but this is one occassion where it should be used. She should go to her
room for a time out and then come out when she's regained her composure.
Then, you could talk to her about what was bothering her. Don't come up to
her room, she might not be ready for you. It takes as long as it takes,
then she'll come down and you can talk, or not. No need to rehash things if
it was a minor incident and she's over it. You may want to help her work on
her communications skills when she's not having a temper tantrum, so she can
see how things could be handled differently. Your description of her sounds
more like a toddler who's throwing a fit because of his inability to
communicate, rather than an 8 yo.

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:52:57 GMT, "Bizby38"
wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like my entire family is out of control, but to take just one
thing at a time, I'd like to talk about my daughter. She's 8 years
old, very loving, smart, has a great sense of humor, is very imaginative,
and she has an incredibly hard time trying to control her emotions.

If the entire family is involved, I would suggest family counselling.
You probably cannot solve these problems by looking only at your
daughter.

Take this morning for example: I was in the living room and her
daddy was getting her some milk. She wanted a straw, but there
were no more disposable ones in the drawer, so he gave her a
crazy straw. "I don't *want* a plastic straw! I want a regular
straw!" So I called out to her that there were more straws in
the pantry. But she'd already gotten worked up, so she just
kept stomping around and shouting. Her daddy told her that
if she didn't stop, he'd pour the (chocolate) milk down the
sink She didn't stop, so he did pour it out, and she stomped
off to her room. I finally went up there about an hour later and
found her *still* steaming. I told her that I'd like to talk to her,
but she said she didn't want to talk, and then started calling me
names, saying I'm stupid and that she wouldn't have had to
yell if I'd gotten off my lazy butt and found the straws for her
and so forth. I told her that I'd done nothing but try to help
her from the start, and I couldn't believe she was talking to
me that way, and I left.

Why did it take you an hour to check on an 8 year old?

Perhaps your daughter needs more attention rather than
people shouting from another room.

I do agree that she probably needed a time out to cool down,
though I think an hour is overlong for that and that you probably
should have checked on her after about 10 or 15 minutes.

I'm completely at my wit's end. Today was unusual in a few
aspects -- how quickly she went from 0 to full tilt tantrum for
one. And the way she was yelling at me and calling me names
when I'm not the one who she'd had the original problem with.
But other aspects are all too common -- throwing a tantrum
when she doesn't get exactly what she wants, sassing and
showing us disrespect, failing to see that her actions are having
negative consequences, etc.

I'm at a loss as to what to do, and as to what I/we have done
wrong up to this point. Even reading what I've written here makes
me rather ashamed. She behaves well in school, but her behavior
has gotten her in trouble with friend's mothers, and there is at
least one mother who won't let her daughter play with mine
anymore. Please Help!!!!

Don't be ashamed, but realize that you cannot control her, you
can only control yourself.

Has she always been this way? Or has something changed
in your home lately?

Look carefully at how you have been behaving towards her.
Do you accept her feelings even when her actions are not
ones you can approve of?

Do you pay attention to her when she is behaving well?
Do you have any one on one time with her?

What is her relationship with her dad like? Does he handle
her respectfully?

Bizby

You are the adult. So change what *you* do.

First, when she is trying to tell you about something, listen to
her.. Don't be distracted by other adults or other children,
really listen.

Second, acknowledge and validate her emotions. You really
wanted that straw. That made you angry. etc.

Third, try to give her new ways to act and behave. Let her
do things for herself whenever you can. Don't try to do everything
for her. That creates learned helplessness and she will believe
she really is not competent to do things for herself.

More once you post more specifics, I guess. In general try to
respect her and listen to her more.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

Hi -

This may be a simple discipline problem, but there may be an underlying
issue. I'd get a consultation with a child psychiatrist, since your
daughter may have an underlying condition that needs addressing. Since
you mention that she's not the only one in your family who's "out of
control", you may also wish to look into family counseling. This is
clearly not the kind of question where you can get a simple answer on
the Internet.

If your daughter is way beyond the other members of your family in her
behavior, with no identifiable cause, another thing you can look at is
food allergies. They do occasionally manifest as out-of-control
behavior. (They wouldn't be my first choice, however.)

My first choice, as I mentioned before, would be a child psychiatrist.
Someone who can figure out if there's something going on at school, if
there was undetected abuse at some point, if she's clinically depressed,
or who can simply help you figure out some good strategies to help her
behavior. Your pediatrician can probably help you find someone.

I'm afraid I don't have any specific advice to offer, other than that.
If you think a food allergy may be at play, I can help you go through
the standard elimination diet and food diary, but I honestly think that
other approaches should come first.

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

On 31 Aug 2003, Beth Kevles wrote:


Hi -

This may be a simple discipline problem, but there may be an underlying
issue. I'd get a consultation with a child psychiatrist, since your
daughter may have an underlying condition that needs addressing. Since
you mention that she's not the only one in your family who's "out of
control", you may also wish to look into family counseling. This is
clearly not the kind of question where you can get a simple answer on
the Internet.

If your daughter is way beyond the other members of your family in her
behavior, with no identifiable cause, another thing you can look at is
food allergies. They do occasionally manifest as out-of-control
behavior. (They wouldn't be my first choice, however.)

My first choice, as I mentioned before, would be a child psychiatrist.
Someone who can figure out if there's something going on at school, if
there was undetected abuse at some point, if she's clinically depressed,
or who can simply help you figure out some good strategies to help her
behavior. Your pediatrician can probably help you find someone.

I'm afraid I don't have any specific advice to offer, other than that.
If you think a food allergy may be at play, I can help you go through
the standard elimination diet and food diary, but I honestly think that
other approaches should come first.


My thoughts were similar. Someone else mentioned she behaved like
a toddler. I also see similarities to female teen behavior. And
some of her behaviors are characteristic of identified bullies.
The cause of the problem could be any number of things including
lack of communication skills as someone else mentioned. But I'd
consider seeking professional help. If she carries this behavior
on into her teen years, disaster awaits.

I'd start with the pediatrician tho and explore any/all physical
possibilities then move on at his/her recommendation to someone
in the mental health field.

Or do others here feel this behavior falls into the norm???

"From: "toypup"
Lots of parents use time outs. I think it is often used inappropriately,
but this is one occassion where it should be used. She should go to her
room for a time out and then come out when she's regained her composure.
Then, you could talk to her about what was bothering her. Don't come up
to
her room, she might not be ready for you. It takes as long as it takes,
then she'll come down and you can talk, or not.

Lol -- Someone else chided me for waiting so long to go up there! If she
hadn't gone to her room on her own, I certainly would have sent her there.
And while I occasionally use timed "time-outs" for small specific behaviors,
in a situation like this, it would definitely have been a "come down when
you're ready" type.

No need to rehash things if
it was a minor incident and she's over it. You may want to help her work
on
her communications skills when she's not having a temper tantrum, so she
can
see how things could be handled differently.

I don't usually rehash minor incidents, but this has become more of a
pattern.
And I have certainly tried talking to her about it calmly and
non-judgementally.
She tells me that when she gets upset she just has so much going on in her
mind that she can't think about what she should do. I've told her that I
understand that. I've talked to her about taking deep breaths and about
going somewhere to be alone until she's gotten herself under control. I've
even tried to "head off" tantrums ahead of time by recognizing when she's
on the edge and alerting her -- that has some success, but I obviously have
to be there right when it is happening.

Your description of her sounds
more like a toddler who's throwing a fit because of his inability to
communicate, rather than an 8 yo.

I agree 100%. I just don't seem to be able to help her.

Bizby

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

My first choice, as I mentioned before, would be a child psychiatrist.
Someone who can figure out if there's something going on at school, if
there was undetected abuse at some point, if she's clinically depressed,
or who can simply help you figure out some good strategies to help her
behavior. Your pediatrician can probably help you find someone.

I have been seriously considering this. It's hard to tell when your child
is far enough off the norm to need counseling. I have been working
with her school counselor over the years -- not so much for this kind
of thing as she does behave at school, but working on her shyness and
getting her to concentrate in class and so forth.

The other thing is that I haven't had good luck with counselors over the
years. I've seen two in my lifetime and they didn't help me a bit. And
I even took her to one when she was 3 and acting out after her brother
had been born. And to go to the expense, inconvenience and hassle
with insurance companies when I don't believe it will do any good....
Well, I guess I'd really have to believe there was no other choice.

Bizby

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Bizby38 wrote:


"Joni Rathbun" wrote in message
...
My thoughts were similar. Someone else mentioned she behaved like
a toddler. I also see similarities to female teen behavior. And
some of her behaviors are characteristic of identified bullies.

I can see why you would say that, but she's not a bully -- bossy
sometimes with her friends, and apt to pout if she doesn't get her
way, but not a bully. As I said, she's well-behaved at school. And
the group of friends that she hangs out with at recess are all extremely
nice.

Well I said "some" behaviors are characteristic. For example, being
verbally abusive in an attempt to get her own way... placing the blame on
you instead of where it belongs... taking charge in place of you... etc.
Bullies can bully adults. The victim doesn't have to be another child.

This doesn't make her a bully. But perhaps looking at some of the
literature of work done with those who display some of these
characteristics could be helpful.


The cause of the problem could be any number of things including
lack of communication skills as someone else mentioned. But I'd
consider seeking professional help. If she carries this behavior
on into her teen years, disaster awaits.

*sigh* I know.

Ask me about my niece some day She was your daughter X10. We
called her the exorcist child for a while there. And she abused
her mother almost to the point of oblivion before they finally
got adequate help.

I'd start with the pediatrician tho and explore any/all physical
possibilities then move on at his/her recommendation to someone
in the mental health field.

I don't want to flat-out rule out counseling, but it may take awhile
to gear up to that decision. I'm hoping for some specific strategies
to try right now.

That's fine. I'd probably do the same. And some people here may
have some good ideas. Consistency and compassion will probably
come in handy.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Bizby38 wrote:

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

My first choice, as I mentioned before, would be a child psychiatrist.
Someone who can figure out if there's something going on at school, if
there was undetected abuse at some point, if she's clinically depressed,
or who can simply help you figure out some good strategies to help her
behavior. Your pediatrician can probably help you find someone.

I have been seriously considering this. It's hard to tell when your child
is far enough off the norm to need counseling. I have been working
with her school counselor over the years -- not so much for this kind
of thing as she does behave at school, but working on her shyness and
getting her to concentrate in class and so forth.

The other thing is that I haven't had good luck with counselors over the
years. I've seen two in my lifetime and they didn't help me a bit. And
I even took her to one when she was 3 and acting out after her brother
had been born. And to go to the expense, inconvenience and hassle
with insurance companies when I don't believe it will do any good....
Well, I guess I'd really have to believe there was no other choice.


My niece was older (15) but the turning point came for her when
she finally clicked with a therapist who specialized in anger management.
It took a while to find the right therapist.

In article , bizby38
@adelphia.net says...
I finally went up there about an hour later and
found her *still* steaming.

I know a couple people have mentioned biological issues, and this
right here hit a chord with me.

My nephew, who was fostered with us for two years, has child-onset
bipolar disorder. One of our first really alarming discoveries was
that his rages did not subside, frequently until he had physically
exhausted himself breaking things or throwing himself around, and
after he'd slept it off. My psychiatrist, who evaluated him, said
these sorts of uncontrollable rages are one major symptoms of COBPD
(which frequently looks very different than adult BPD), and usually
occur during the more manic phases.

I don't know if girls would manifest these tempers less physically
than boys, but it's entirely possible. I would at least maybe keep
it in the back of your mind when talking to a doctor.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00) Zachary Mitchell
Theona Alexis (06/03/03) (01/12/94, fostered 09/05/01 - 07/23/03)

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 03:05:18 GMT, "Bizby38"
wrote:


"toto" wrote in message
.. .
Why did it take you an hour to check on an 8 year old?

Because she had gone up there on her own and was free to
come down whenever she wanted. Because she is perfectly
capable of entertaining her self for an hour or more -- especially
when she gets into a new book. Because she apparently
wanted to be alone. And because she's 8, not 4.

Ok. Personality does come in here to an extent.

Still, if she is the type of child who stews for long periods over
things, sometimes it helps to just go and let her know you are
available to listen to her viewpoint on this.

Perhaps your daughter needs more attention rather than
people shouting from another room.

Okay, this isn't fair. She was *with* her daddy. I was just
calling out to let them know where the new pack of straws
was. At the time I didn't see a need to go in there.

He couldn't find the straws himself?

I also think that yelling anything from another room is
unproductive. If she was with her dad, and you were not
involved, why not let him finish handling the situation, why
say anything at all?

Has she always been this way? Or has something changed
in your home lately?

Nothing has changed except that the school year has started.
That might have something to do with this particular incident
as it is a high-stress time and she will probably get better
after school has been in session a couple of weeks.

That's good. Still if you know that this is a stressful time,
you can plan to avoid situations where she might react
with such tantrums. Perhaps, she should have been getting
her own milk and straw instead of dad pouring it for her?
Depends on her personality of course, but if she finds his
help annoying, perhaps he can avoid helping her much.

Has she always been this way? Yes and no. She'll go
through long periods, months at a time, with nothing this
drastic happening. And then she'll go through several
weeks where this kind of thing might happen once or
twice a week.

Sounds like she reacts to stress this way.

Look carefully at how you have been behaving towards her.
Do you accept her feelings even when her actions are not
ones you can approve of?

I believe so.

Do you pay attention to her when she is behaving well?

yes.

Do you have any one on one time with her?

yes. Our best time is right before bed when we read together.
We both love reading and she has worked her way through
the Magic Treehouse, Boxcar Children and Baby-sitter's
club series. I read all the books too so we have something
to share and I know what she means when she says, "I'm
kind of like Jack and my brother is more like Annie." Or
"I'm like Bennie if he hadn't eaten for a week!"

That sounds good. Does dad have any good one on one time
with her as well?

What is her relationship with her dad like? Does he handle
her respectfully?

*sigh* Well, here is another whole can of worms. Her daddy
doesn't understand her a bit. He loves her, and she loves him,
but they just grate on each other. He doesn't know when to
let her be. He's a terrific dad to our son, but I swear that there
is pretty obvious favoritism. He denies it of course. Sometimes
it's obvious and I'll call him on it. Other times it's more subtle.
She's a girl, and an extra emotional one at that, and he just
doesn't know how to handle her. Even after the straw
incident today after he poured her milk out she screamed
something as she stomped upstairs and he followed up with
a mocking "wah-wah-wah". I did tell him to act like a
grownup.

It sounds as if he adds to the problem by his behavior. In a family
dynamic like this it is hard to change if only one person works on
it.

This is of course where the family counseling would come in,
but believe me, he wouldn't go. He bristles at the suggestion
that he might ever do anything wrong. His worst mistake is
that he doesn't know when to back off. She'll get riled up
and he'll just keep pushing her and pushing her.

That sounds like it is a poor way to work with any child.

But suggesting that he does it wrong, probably gets his back
up. Are there times when he does handle her well? Can you
reinforce those by acknowledging them when they happen?

First, when she is trying to tell you about something, listen to
her.. Don't be distracted by other adults or other children,
really listen.

I try.

We all try, but in a case like this you have to do more than try.
It's really important to listen to each person and to allow enough
time to do that.

One person may have to wait, but they should each have a turn
to speak without being interrupted and without the adult turning
away to take care of some other problem.

Second, acknowledge and validate her emotions. You really
wanted that straw. That made you angry. etc.

She may act like a toddler sometimes, but she's a saavy 8yo.
She sees that kind of thing as condescension and it seems to
only make her angrier.

It should not be done in a condescending way, but you can
describe what you see.

Find a way to phrase it that doesn't make her angry if you can,
but do let her know you understand and see what she is feeling.


Third, try to give her new ways to act and behave.

As I said in another post, efforts to get her to take deep breaths,
leave before things get out of hand, etc. have not worked well.
I even got a book about stress in kids called "Don't Pop Your
Cork on Mondays" We read it together, and I tried to get her
and her brother to do the relaxation exercises in the book
with me, but they seemed to think it was funny. So, I want
to do this, but I don't know how.

It's ok if it's funny. Humor can defuse anger too.

Why not do the exercises for yourself and be a bit of a fool?
It can't hurt to laugh instead of being angry.

What do you do when *you* get angry? What does your husband
do? Learn some anger management techniques for yourselves
and model them for her.

Let her
do things for herself whenever you can. Don't try to do everything
for her. That creates learned helplessness and she will believe
she really is not competent to do things for herself.

What specifically? She does do quite a bit for herself -- she always
dresses herself, and often gets her own snacks or drinks. She decides
what friends to invite over and when and calls them herself. I finally
decided she was old enough to have a lemonade stand this summer,
and she did almost all of that herself (except hauling the table to
the top of the driveway). I think she's pretty independant when she
wants to be.

Well, in the case of the incident above, if she wanted a specific
kind of straw, she could certainly have gotten it herself.

More once you post more specifics, I guess. In general try to
respect her and listen to her more.

I'll try to answer any specific questions you have.

thanks,

Bizby

I don't know that there is a good solution that focuses only on your
daughter here. It seems to me that your husband and son are
involved as well and that it is the dynamic and roles of each of
you that needs to change rather than one person's behavior.

For one thing, how is your daughter viewed in the family? If she
is labelled by her current behavior, then it becomes very hard
to change out of the pattern.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits