Question for Bob W

My husband is going to court at the end of January to have "arrearages set."
He has complained for the last year-and-a-half that Oregon grabs our income
tax refund, but Ca never subtracts it from the arrearages. Ca. has been
$5000 off in their total due! Quite a chunk of change. Oregon says he owes
only $1450 in arrearages. Ca called this week and told him that, after
getting together with Or, they have found that he only owes $4700. That is
with Ca interest added in, of course.

We need some (non-legal) advice. We could borrow and pay off the $4700, but
I know that our income tax refund will still be grabbed this year. Which
would mean he would be overpaid by approx $2000. What would Or do with that
$2000 overpayment? Would they send it back? Or send it through to the mom
(who is not owed it?)

Would it be better to wait for our tax refund to be snagged, then pay off
the remainder of the arrearage, giving them nearly a year to take our name
off the "grab their refund" list? How would you handle it, were it you?
Child support will be over in Apr, 2008--a little over 2 years. Thanks!!

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...
My husband is going to court at the end of January to have "arrearages
set."
He has complained for the last year-and-a-half that Oregon grabs our
income
tax refund, but Ca never subtracts it from the arrearages. Ca. has been
$5000 off in their total due! Quite a chunk of change. Oregon says he
owes
only $1450 in arrearages. Ca called this week and told him that, after
getting together with Or, they have found that he only owes $4700. That
is
with Ca interest added in, of course.

We need some (non-legal) advice. We could borrow and pay off the $4700,
but
I know that our income tax refund will still be grabbed this year. Which
would mean he would be overpaid by approx $2000. What would Or do with
that
$2000 overpayment? Would they send it back? Or send it through to the
mom
(who is not owed it?)

Would it be better to wait for our tax refund to be snagged, then pay off
the remainder of the arrearage, giving them nearly a year to take our name
off the "grab their refund" list? How would you handle it, were it you?
Child support will be over in Apr, 2008--a little over 2 years. Thanks!!

I have zero experience with interstate CS enforcement other than hearing
other fathers complain about all the inconsistencies when two states are
involved. My personal experience with hearings regarding arrearages is you
get one bit at the apple. And despite what evidence you bring to court, it
won't be exactly what you need to prove your side of the case. BTW - Oregon
does not access interest automatically on arrearage amounts on non-IV-D
cases. They require the CP to calculate the interest, explain how the
amount was determined, and they give the NCP the chance to challenge the
interest calculation in a hearing before they add it to the account. IV-D
cases have the interest added automatically.

I do know this. Oregon is good about sending NCP's a refund when an
overpayment is received. On several occasions I sent them a spreadsheet
showing previous statement balances, current payments made since the
statement date, and current month withholding to demonstrate the
overpayment. Ironically, on two occasions I got duplicate refunds for the
amount I was demanding and they tried to hit me with arrearage withholding
because they made a mistake by over-refunding. I called them on it and they
backed off.

Kinda reading into what you wrote I would suggest a couple of things.
First, ask the court to order the CA CS administration to justify how they
come up with the principle amount and how the interest was calculated. And
second, ask the court to make CA CS administration disclose what they are
doing with the interest.

Here's why. If the principle plus CA interest is being sent to Oregon and
Oregon does not access interest (or a different amount) the principle will
be paid off faster than the CA records will show. Oregon will then refund
the interest over payment and that money goes somewhere. If it goes to CA
CS administration and they don't refund it to your husband that just doesn't
sound right.

You also might look into how the full faith and credit process works. It
may be to your benefit to ask the court to clear up all the discrepancies in
dollars owned by requiring CA to only recognize the Oregon CS accounting and
not do a separate accounting. There are provisions in interstate CS law for
a state to have their order apply in another state. You'll need to have an
attorney with expertise in interstate CS law help you with that aspect.

Worse case I guess would be to keep paying the CA CS amounts until it is
paid off and continually ask for refunds from Oregon for the overpayments.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
k.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...
My husband is going to court at the end of January to have "arrearages
set."
He has complained for the last year-and-a-half that Oregon grabs our
income
tax refund, but Ca never subtracts it from the arrearages. Ca. has been
$5000 off in their total due! Quite a chunk of change. Oregon says he
owes
only $1450 in arrearages. Ca called this week and told him that, after
getting together with Or, they have found that he only owes $4700. That
is
with Ca interest added in, of course.

We need some (non-legal) advice. We could borrow and pay off the $4700,
but
I know that our income tax refund will still be grabbed this year. Which
would mean he would be overpaid by approx $2000. What would Or do with
that
$2000 overpayment? Would they send it back? Or send it through to the
mom
(who is not owed it?)

Would it be better to wait for our tax refund to be snagged, then pay off
the remainder of the arrearage, giving them nearly a year to take our
name
off the "grab their refund" list? How would you handle it, were it you?
Child support will be over in Apr, 2008--a little over 2 years. Thanks!!

I have zero experience with interstate CS enforcement other than hearing
other fathers complain about all the inconsistencies when two states are
involved. My personal experience with hearings regarding arrearages is
you
get one bit at the apple. And despite what evidence you bring to court,
it
won't be exactly what you need to prove your side of the case. BTW -
Oregon
does not access interest automatically on arrearage amounts on non-IV-D
cases. They require the CP to calculate the interest, explain how the
amount was determined, and they give the NCP the chance to challenge the
interest calculation in a hearing before they add it to the account. IV-D
cases have the interest added automatically.

I do know this. Oregon is good about sending NCP's a refund when an
overpayment is received. On several occasions I sent them a spreadsheet
showing previous statement balances, current payments made since the
statement date, and current month withholding to demonstrate the
overpayment. Ironically, on two occasions I got duplicate refunds for the
amount I was demanding and they tried to hit me with arrearage withholding
because they made a mistake by over-refunding. I called them on it and
they
backed off.

Kinda reading into what you wrote I would suggest a couple of things.
First, ask the court to order the CA CS administration to justify how they
come up with the principle amount and how the interest was calculated.
And
second, ask the court to make CA CS administration disclose what they are
doing with the interest.

Here's why. If the principle plus CA interest is being sent to Oregon and
Oregon does not access interest (or a different amount) the principle will
be paid off faster than the CA records will show. Oregon will then refund
the interest over payment and that money goes somewhere. If it goes to CA
CS administration and they don't refund it to your husband that just
doesn't
sound right.

You also might look into how the full faith and credit process works. It
may be to your benefit to ask the court to clear up all the discrepancies
in
dollars owned by requiring CA to only recognize the Oregon CS accounting
and
not do a separate accounting. There are provisions in interstate CS law
for
a state to have their order apply in another state. You'll need to have
an
attorney with expertise in interstate CS law help you with that aspect.

Worse case I guess would be to keep paying the CA CS amounts until it is
paid off and continually ask for refunds from Oregon for the overpayments.

Thanks, Bob. Your answer is very helpful.

More papers arrived today. The arrearage amount is now down to $4100. Down
from the $10,000+ they were saying was owed, and even down from the $4700
they told us just a week or so ago. They sent spreadsheets, so I can get
out all the papers I have from Or and Ca and compare them. The mother slid
from welfare to disability (because of her nonstop drinking), and has never
worked a day in her l;ife, so I am assuming that Or adds interest
automatically, and she has nothing to do with it. Mom never communicates,
although her social worked once called and asked my husband to send a
duplicate payment because the wage garnishment had not arrived yet.
(Needless to say, he did not do so) The court date has been moved to
February. I think they are just looking for the arrearage to be paid off,
and want to set payments to make that happen. When they get our tax refund,
the amount will be more than half paid off. So my next question is, once
the arrearage amount is paid off, will they automatically change the payment
to include only the current CS owed? Or will we need to go back to court to
ask that the amount be lowered to only current CS without arrearages? It
would be awful to be told that we could not go back to court for 2 years,
and have to pay the extra every month!!

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


More papers arrived today. The arrearage amount is now down to $4100.
Down
from the $10,000+ they were saying was owed, and even down from the $4700
they told us just a week or so ago. They sent spreadsheets, so I can get
out all the papers I have from Or and Ca and compare them. The mother
slid
from welfare to disability (because of her nonstop drinking), and has
never
worked a day in her l;ife, so I am assuming that Or adds interest
automatically, and she has nothing to do with it. Mom never communicates,
although her social worked once called and asked my husband to send a
duplicate payment because the wage garnishment had not arrived yet.
(Needless to say, he did not do so) The court date has been moved to
February. I think they are just looking for the arrearage to be paid off,
and want to set payments to make that happen. When they get our tax
refund,
the amount will be more than half paid off. So my next question is, once
the arrearage amount is paid off, will they automatically change the
payment
to include only the current CS owed? Or will we need to go back to court
to
ask that the amount be lowered to only current CS without arrearages? It
would be awful to be told that we could not go back to court for 2 years,
and have to pay the extra every month!!

It is my understanding tax refund intercepts are done on an annual basis. In
Oregon, their computer system automatically sends the IRS an annual list of
all cases with an arrearage. The cut-off for IV-D cases is $150 in arrears.
It's $500 for non-IV-D cases.

The arrearage withholding order is a one time event. The hearing you are
going to have is preliminary to setting the arrearage amount which in turn
sets up how long it will take to collect the arrearage established. The
wage withholding order which goes to the employer should comply with state
law for the maximum arrearage collected through withholding. In Oregon the
maximum is 25% of the NCP's original order amount. So if a basic order is
for $300 per month, the maximum they can withhold would be $375 per month.

I had acceptable results dealing with Oregon CS accounting by monitoring my
own account, writing to them with spreadsheets to back up my requests, and
having them act. So I would recommend closely watching the account balance
and when it gets down near being paid off send a request to stop the
arrearage wage withholding a month before the need to end it. Send a
spreadsheet to show how future wage withholding will zero out the remaining
arrearage amount.

One other thing I did that really helped - Every time I sent a request to
the CS accounting unit I ended the letter with something like - "If you are
unable to complete my request for . . . please pass my request on to a
senior manager for them to review." That worked to get my requests out of
the hands of the low-level case workers and into the hands of managers who
could do things other than following a business process flow chart.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


More papers arrived today. The arrearage amount is now down to $4100.
Down
from the $10,000+ they were saying was owed, and even down from the $4700
they told us just a week or so ago. They sent spreadsheets, so I can get
out all the papers I have from Or and Ca and compare them. The mother
slid
from welfare to disability (because of her nonstop drinking), and has
never
worked a day in her l;ife, so I am assuming that Or adds interest
automatically, and she has nothing to do with it. Mom never
communicates,
although her social worked once called and asked my husband to send a
duplicate payment because the wage garnishment had not arrived yet.
(Needless to say, he did not do so) The court date has been moved to
February. I think they are just looking for the arrearage to be paid
off,
and want to set payments to make that happen. When they get our tax
refund,
the amount will be more than half paid off. So my next question is, once
the arrearage amount is paid off, will they automatically change the
payment
to include only the current CS owed? Or will we need to go back to court
to
ask that the amount be lowered to only current CS without arrearages? It
would be awful to be told that we could not go back to court for 2 years,
and have to pay the extra every month!!

It is my understanding tax refund intercepts are done on an annual basis.
In
Oregon, their computer system automatically sends the IRS an annual list
of
all cases with an arrearage. The cut-off for IV-D cases is $150 in
arrears.
It's $500 for non-IV-D cases.

The arrearage withholding order is a one time event. The hearing you are
going to have is preliminary to setting the arrearage amount which in turn
sets up how long it will take to collect the arrearage established. The
wage withholding order which goes to the employer should comply with state
law for the maximum arrearage collected through withholding. In Oregon
the
maximum is 25% of the NCP's original order amount. So if a basic order is
for $300 per month, the maximum they can withhold would be $375 per month.

I had acceptable results dealing with Oregon CS accounting by monitoring
my
own account, writing to them with spreadsheets to back up my requests, and
having them act. So I would recommend closely watching the account
balance
and when it gets down near being paid off send a request to stop the
arrearage wage withholding a month before the need to end it. Send a
spreadsheet to show how future wage withholding will zero out the
remaining
arrearage amount.

One other thing I did that really helped - Every time I sent a request to
the CS accounting unit I ended the letter with something like - "If you
are
unable to complete my request for . . . please pass my request on to a
senior manager for them to review." That worked to get my requests out of
the hands of the low-level case workers and into the hands of managers who
could do things other than following a business process flow chart.

Thanks, Bob. I have printed this out and put it with the other paperwork.
We are going to let them take this year's refund, then I am going to
increase my allowances so we have to pay for the next few years, and keep
the extra $$ in an account so we will have it to pay with come tax time each
year. The arrearages should be paid off by next year if they take it the
way you mention above. At that point, once the arrearages are totally paid
off, will we need to go back to court, or will it just happen on its own?
(I really appreciate your helpfullness, Bob!)

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


More papers arrived today. The arrearage amount is now down to $4100.
Down
from the $10,000+ they were saying was owed, and even down from the
$4700
they told us just a week or so ago. They sent spreadsheets, so I can
get
out all the papers I have from Or and Ca and compare them. The mother
slid
from welfare to disability (because of her nonstop drinking), and has
never
worked a day in her l;ife, so I am assuming that Or adds interest
automatically, and she has nothing to do with it. Mom never
communicates,
although her social worked once called and asked my husband to send a
duplicate payment because the wage garnishment had not arrived yet.
(Needless to say, he did not do so) The court date has been moved to
February. I think they are just looking for the arrearage to be paid
off,
and want to set payments to make that happen. When they get our tax
refund,
the amount will be more than half paid off. So my next question is,
once
the arrearage amount is paid off, will they automatically change the
payment
to include only the current CS owed? Or will we need to go back to
court
to
ask that the amount be lowered to only current CS without arrearages?
It
would be awful to be told that we could not go back to court for 2
years,
and have to pay the extra every month!!

It is my understanding tax refund intercepts are done on an annual
basis.
In
Oregon, their computer system automatically sends the IRS an annual list
of
all cases with an arrearage. The cut-off for IV-D cases is $150 in
arrears.
It's $500 for non-IV-D cases.

The arrearage withholding order is a one time event. The hearing you
are
going to have is preliminary to setting the arrearage amount which in
turn
sets up how long it will take to collect the arrearage established. The
wage withholding order which goes to the employer should comply with
state
law for the maximum arrearage collected through withholding. In Oregon
the
maximum is 25% of the NCP's original order amount. So if a basic order
is
for $300 per month, the maximum they can withhold would be $375 per
month.

I had acceptable results dealing with Oregon CS accounting by monitoring
my
own account, writing to them with spreadsheets to back up my requests,
and
having them act. So I would recommend closely watching the account
balance
and when it gets down near being paid off send a request to stop the
arrearage wage withholding a month before the need to end it. Send a
spreadsheet to show how future wage withholding will zero out the
remaining
arrearage amount.

One other thing I did that really helped - Every time I sent a request
to
the CS accounting unit I ended the letter with something like - "If you
are
unable to complete my request for . . . please pass my request on to a
senior manager for them to review." That worked to get my requests out
of
the hands of the low-level case workers and into the hands of managers
who
could do things other than following a business process flow chart.

Thanks, Bob. I have printed this out and put it with the other paperwork.
We are going to let them take this year's refund, then I am going to
increase my allowances so we have to pay for the next few years, and keep
the extra $$ in an account so we will have it to pay with come tax time
each
year. The arrearages should be paid off by next year if they take it the
way you mention above. At that point, once the arrearages are totally
paid
off, will we need to go back to court, or will it just happen on its own?
(I really appreciate your helpfullness, Bob!)

My experience was by being proactive with my CS account I didn't have to go
back to court. I ended up working out withholding changes satisfactorily
through my case worker or management contacts at the CS accounting unit.
The managers have a lot of power to do things administratively without court
approval. (The state law gives the CS program administrator the same
signing authority as a Circuit Court Judge.) But I can't speak for how
California CSE might handle an interstate CS file from their end.

If you want the email address for the head of the Oregon CS accounting unit
send me a private email and I'll send it to you. She is very responsive and
did some good things voluntarily to help me. I know her casually through
some of my testimony before the legislature. If she wasn't the "dreaded
enemy" I'd call her a babe. :-)

If all else fails, Oregon has a very good grievance procedure they run
through a "Constituent's Desk." The father's in Oregon successfully got a
Consent Decree several years ago requiring the state to set up a grievance
procedure to respond to our complaints. They help CP mom's too. I have a
generic email address for those people too if you want it.