Visitation/Child Support

When has an oppressed group been liberated WITHOUT any
political organizing on their own behalf?

So? Anyone thinking mere organizing is the solution is as ignorant as
those who fail to recognize C$ as another political funds
transfer vote buying scheme and think it is a well meaning valid
institution that simply needs tweaking. Hmmm, so Cindy Sheehan's
prominence is due to her great organizational skills? I get it--
Army Of One, she is a political organization of one so that is
why she has been so sucessful! X-)

On the subject of organization, there are two observations. First,
there is a hodge podge of distinct separate groups. It is as though
every motivated and vicitimized father--and of course there
are very many--has started their own group. If there is a single
leading group (i.e. the anti-NOW) let us know. Second,
most groups, particularly the better publicized ones, are
male apologist groups--"We men are so terrible and bad
and aweful fathers but please accept our sins and help us
not to be such evil child abusing wife beating family abandoning
deadbeads that all men are." And you think organizing is good?

Here's a third observation, the most outragous information
posted here (e.g. the police gleefully assisting a mother in insuring
her children are alienated from their father) generates the
least reaction. As pointed out already, the thrust here is one
of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck
chairs on the Titantic.

"abdd" wrote in

As pointed out already, the thrust here is one
of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck
chairs on the Titantic.

Realizing that CS issues are nothing more than political stages for gain,
it's going to take a powerful organized group to swing the votes the other
way and get a control on this obscene abuse of low end income earners.

abdd:

I continue to think there is little difference between us. I was not,
of course, suggesting that organizing by itself was the solution. However,
it is an essential PART of the solution. Are you familiar with the
expression that some action or other is a "necessary but not a sufficient"
part of the remedy to a problem? In other words, action A must take place
before the solution of the problem can be achieved, but action A is not by
itself sufficient to bring about the solution to the problem.

That's the way it is for fathers, or men, who organize to fight the
systematic and pervasive discrimination against them. Organizing alone will
not solve the problem. However, if fathers and men DON'T organize to fight
the discrimination against them, nothing whatsoever will happen.

As for your more specific comments below, I have absolutely no sympathy
for those men who join groups that passively accept feminist anti-male
dogma. Men should stand up to feminists and point out that women owe an
enormous amount to what has been achieved almost exclusively by men in such
fields as science, music, engineering, etc., etc. That is part of getting
away from the situation where, in the battle of the sexes, only one side
shows up.


"abdd" wrote in message
...
When has an oppressed group been liberated WITHOUT any
political organizing on their own behalf?

So? Anyone thinking mere organizing is the solution is as ignorant as
those who fail to recognize C$ as another political funds
transfer vote buying scheme and think it is a well meaning valid
institution that simply needs tweaking. Hmmm, so Cindy Sheehan's
prominence is due to her great organizational skills? I get it--
Army Of One, she is a political organization of one so that is
why she has been so sucessful! X-)

On the subject of organization, there are two observations. First,
there is a hodge podge of distinct separate groups. It is as though
every motivated and vicitimized father--and of course there
are very many--has started their own group. If there is a single
leading group (i.e. the anti-NOW) let us know. Second,
most groups, particularly the better publicized ones, are
male apologist groups--"We men are so terrible and bad
and aweful fathers but please accept our sins and help us
not to be such evil child abusing wife beating family abandoning
deadbeads that all men are." And you think organizing is good?

Here's a third observation, the most outragous information
posted here (e.g. the police gleefully assisting a mother in insuring
her children are alienated from their father) generates the
least reaction. As pointed out already, the thrust here is one
of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck
chairs on the Titantic.

[organization] is an essential PART of the solution.

And what of the other point: C$ victims seek an end
to their oppression and the abuse of their children rather
than a reversal of fortune--when in history has an oppressed
group been effectively organized without the promise of
spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership?

"abdd" wrote in message
...
[organization] is an essential PART of the solution.

And what of the other point: C$ victims seek an end
to their oppression and the abuse of their children rather
than a reversal of fortune--when in history has an oppressed
group been effectively organized without the promise of
spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership?

That's a lot of fiery language in one sentence for any reader to digest. It
would be helpful if you could define how you come to the conclusion some or
all divorced, separated or never married parents are "victims." What
aspects of CS do you consider to be "oppressive"? How are children "abused"
by CS?

While most of us would agree there are significant problems within the CS
system, only a few people in our society actually understand what can happen
within the system. But not everyone within the system believes CS creates
"victims", "oppression", and "abuse". There are people within and outside
the CS system who just accept it "as is".

My personal experience is people who challenge the system get different
treatment than people who accept the system. But that doesn't mean everyone
is a victim. I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing
the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be
productive. What are your thoughts on that?

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
nk.net...

"abdd" wrote in message
...
[organization] is an essential PART of the solution.

And what of the other point: C$ victims seek an end
to their oppression and the abuse of their children rather
than a reversal of fortune--when in history has an oppressed
group been effectively organized without the promise of
spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership?

That's a lot of fiery language in one sentence for any reader to digest.
It
would be helpful if you could define how you come to the conclusion some
or
all divorced, separated or never married parents are "victims." What
aspects of CS do you consider to be "oppressive"? How are children
"abused"
by CS?

While most of us would agree there are significant problems within the CS
system, only a few people in our society actually understand what can
happen
within the system. But not everyone within the system believes CS creates
"victims", "oppression", and "abuse". There are people within and outside
the CS system who just accept it "as is".

My personal experience is people who challenge the system get different
treatment than people who accept the system. But that doesn't mean
everyone
is a victim. I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing
the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be
productive. What are your thoughts on that?


....I agree.
To many clichés to list...
I have found the more questions I ask, the more obfuscated the *spoken*
answers become.
Therefore, I usually like to use trickery and an implied ignorance of the
law(make them think you're dumb). "Art of war" kinda stuff.

--

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all
arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that
principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--Herbert Spencer
theelectricgunssuck.com

when in history has an oppressed
group been effectively organized without the promise of
spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership?

....

I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing
the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be
productive. What are your thoughts on that?

Gee, how successful has your "rearrange the deck chairs on
the Titanic" approach been? In fact, such an approach only
serves to legitimize a system of oppression and allow it
flourish.

You & Me throughout history:

You: slavery is cruel and horrible. we need to change things
so slave families are not broken up and slaves are
insured medical treatment and the ability to rest when
sick or injured.
Me: slavery is an abomination. it needs to be abolished, not
prettied up and made more acceptable.

You: Nazi treatment of Jews is cruel and horrible. we need
to improve the sanitation level in the slave camps and
not punish the residents without approval of the commandant's
punishment review committee.
Me: Nazi treatment of Jews is an abomination. It need to
be ceased and all those involved held accountable.

You: British treatment of the residents of India is cruel and horrible.
We need to change things so the people of India have one,
no, make that two members of the House of Commons
assigned the role of protector of the interests of the
people of India.
Me: British treatment of residents of India is an abomination.
India should have self-rule.

You: Southern treatment of blacks is cruel and horrible. We
need to increase the punishment for lynching and
insure there are just as many colored water fountains
as there as white water fountains.
Me: Southern treatments of blacks is an abomination. The
federal government must intervene and end all forms
of racial segregation and discrimination.

But you just go on rearranging those deck chairs and telling us
what a good and practical approach it is. Until you recognize
C$ as the political vote buying scheme that it is your comments
defending it are of no interest. Well, no interest to people
opposed to oppression. The people benefiting from it welcome
your remarks.

"abdd" wrote in message
...
when in history has an oppressed
group been effectively organized without the promise of
spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership?

...

I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing
the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be
productive. What are your thoughts on that?

Gee, how successful has your "rearrange the deck chairs on
the Titanic" approach been? In fact, such an approach only
serves to legitimize a system of oppression and allow it
flourish.

Railing about the CS system is not productive. The way to facilitate
changes is to understand the current system, establish relationships with
state CS administrators, meet with your state representatives to discuss
your concerns, monitor legislative activity, testify before house judiciary
committee hearings, and be a credible concerned citizen.

Sometimes being successful is blocking changes for good reasons. Other
times its slowing things down so the legislative committees consider your
concerns and make modifications to proposed laws. Still other times its
just giving the legislature an earful from a parent's perspective.

Successes - Stopping a proposal to establish an over-riding money judgment
when multiple money judgments exist in more than one jurisdiction.
Establishing parental advocates in courthouses to assist in preparing and
filing court documents pro se. Getting the house judiciary committee to
recognize the need to fund parental information programs to notify CS
program constituents of changes rather than pretending major changes to the
program are "revenue neutral."

Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to
changing the CS system.

Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to
changing the CS system.

Abolishing C$ would, by definition, eliminate its oppression. You live
in a fantasy world with your notion that C$ ills are just inadvertent
mistakes and if those in charge were only made aware of them they
would thank you and rush to make changes. C$ is just another
political vote buying scheme. Its tie to the support of children is only
one of this being an effective bit of propaganda to mask this truth
and keeping the support of the ignorant--especially the dumb asses
who only need to have it prettied up to fully embrace it.

I found another newsreel of us in history:

you: if only curtains were put inside the concentration camp
barracks it would make things better. No need to do anything
so rash as to bulldoze, I mean scorch the earth of the camps.
me: scorch the camps and don't spare the gasoline on their operators.

you: what if the policy was changed so blacks sit on the left side of
the bus and whites on the right side, wouldn't this make Rosa
Parks and everyone else happy?
me: dig a deep hole, put all vestiges of Jim Crow in it, and cover it over.
Oh, and then scorch the earth above the hole.

and on and on.

Look in the mirror, it is people exactly like you with your tolerance
for oppression that allows it to flourish. The oppressors love dupes
like you, the easily fooled who the oppressors are more than happy
to pretend to accept improvement suggestions from.

you: well sure apartheid is bad but I think with a few changes it
will work for everyone in South Africa. Let's not take a
scorched earth approach, that will never work.

You make it so easy for you and your nonsense to be mocked.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in

Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to
changing the CS system.

I agree that shouting about the present system on here solves nothing, but
it doesn't mean we have to accept or approve a system that is so bias and
unfair, it stinks of prejudice.

The only way to fight this political system is to single out the people that
are supporting it and vote their asses out of office.
Oh wait a minute, they've already figured that move out and made us felons
so we can't vote!

That's fine, we still have parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, it's time to
put up or shut up!
If it can get voted into legislation, it sure as hell can get voted out by a
bigger lobby, along with all the limp dicks that support such a pathetic
piece of poorly thought out policy!!!!!!!!!