How long to pump 3 oz?

Hi,

Sometimes people do really have supply problems, but how much you can
pump isn't a good indicator. FWIW 3 oz in 45 minutes was way more
than I could pump at that stage. I could pump maybe 1 oz at that
point.

IMHO you shouldn't drop all supplement at once, but should instead
drop 1 - 3 oz every 2 or 3 days while watching for low diaper counts
or dehydration.

I have had low initial supply with both my dds. With the first I gave
up, with the second I made it to 100% breastmilk. Here are some tips
that can help you succeed with your goal.

- no more bottlefeeding. Feed all supplements with a syringe,
supplemental nursing system, sippy cup or cup. Make it so the only
place the baby's sucking needs are met is your nipple.

- do not supplement after every feed. This keeps them hungrily
working at the breast more time to build supply, but keeps them from
getting low diaper counts.

- switch feed, this means to listen for the baby's swallowing, and
when it stops switch breasts. Keep this up until baby falls asleep or
wants no more. It's great for building supply. My dd and I did this
for 4 or 5 hours every night for months.

- know that many women's babies want to be latched on all the time.
It is not that abnormal in the first 6 weeks for a baby to want to be
at the breast all the time, especially in the evening. You are not
the only one.

- there are some galactagogues that might increase supply:
domperidone, fenugreek, 1 pill/day of vitex, mother's milk tea,
oatmeal, drinking lots of water, 1 beer to name a few.

Good luck,

KC

(Zucca4) wrote in message ...
Michael Jude will be 4 months old on Monday. He's nursing 70% of the time, 30%
Similac thanks to his intensive care stay where he was indoctrinated to
formula. Also he never seems satisfied at the breast and minutes after 30 mins.
of nursing will carry on and then suck formula down like there is no tomorrow.
I have found the whole breastfeeding thing very discouraging sadly enough
especially since I felt so strongly about it and really wanted this so much.

I offer the baby my breast for all his sucking needs and the only time I have
resorted to formula was when he cried uncontrollably after nursings and it was
very obvious he was still hungry. I am now a stay at home mom and while there
is no real need to pump, I have pumped quite a few times so that I can
physically see what my son is getting as he has a bowel movement only every
four days although he does have many wet diapers. I generally get only about 3
oz. in about 45 minutes from both breasts. I am wondering if my breasts are
not producing enough milk. Any time I give him formula, I pump to stimulate my
breasts as I recognize the relationship between supply and demand.

I have heard that women who don't gain a lot of weight during their pregnancies
or whose breasts don't get larger have a tougher time. I only gained 11 pounds
( I was a bit overweight however, and had gestational diabetes so I had to be
very prudent with my pregnancy diet) and my already very large boobs did not
get larger at all. I wore the same bras throughout my pregnancy.

I've read all breastfeeding material I could get my hands on and the sentiment
always seems the same- that all women are capable of breastfeeding, that's it's
what nature intended, and that with practice and perserverance the art can be
mastered.

I, however, am feeling very down suddenly about the whole thing as Michael
always seems hungry and never seems satisfied at the breast. The idea of
supplementing never seemed like a good one, however, his hungry cries get the
better of me every time.

Advice? I don't want to give up. My doctor assures me that if I make it to 6
weeks I'll have done a good thing, but I really wanted to make it to a year if
that was possible.

Thanks for listening,
lisa

(Zucca4) writes:

Michael Jude will be 4 months old on Monday. He's nursing 70% of the time, 30%
Similac thanks to his intensive care stay where he was indoctrinated to
formula. Also he never seems satisfied at the breast and minutes after 30 mins.
of nursing will carry on and then suck formula down like there is no tomorrow.

- My pumping speed: if my daughter nurses as much as she wants, then, at
the end of the day, I try to nurse, it would probably take me about 3
hours to pump 3 ounces. (I'd put the pump in the refrigerator, then pump
an ounce or so every half hour.)

- Suggestion: unless your son is very fat or is allergic to formula,
continue doing what you've been doing, and stop feeling guilty about
supplementing with formula. If you do everything you can to encourage
nursing, and, as much as possible, you let other people give your son the
formula bottles, you could be able to keep up nursing as long as women who
have better supplies of milk. The important thing is just to have a good
time with your baby and give him all of the nutrients and antibodies that
you can give him, not to win the Misc.Kids.Breastfeeding Purity Contest.

- My experience with supplementing: I turned out to have a mediocre supply
of milk, and a pediatrician, a certified lactation consultant and a friend
who's a certified LC told me I had to supplement with formula (or milk
bank milk, or something) starting when my daughter was 8 weeks old. (She
had slipped to the 3rd percentile, from the 10th percentile, in terms of
weight, and she was clearly unhappy with the amount of milk that she was
getting. She also was latched on ALL the time.)

My husband and the folks at daycare supplemented her with formula from the
time she was 8 weeks old till she turned 1. When I was home from work, I
nursed her as much as she'd let me. When I returned to work, I started
pumping once in the morning and a second time in the afternoon with an
Avent Isis manual pump and got about 2 ounces out each time. Then, when my
daughter turned 1, I cut down to pumping in the morning and, when I
have the energy, around midnight.

Results: my daughter is now 14.5 months old. She drinks regular milk
instead of formula and has no detectable allergies, except possibly to
grass lawns. Her height and weight are average, she's happy, and her only
illnesses have been a few short, relatively mild colds. And she still
nurses in the morning, at lunch time, and off and on throughout the
evening. Sometimes she will nurse, beg for a little cow milk, sip the cow
milk, then go back to nursing.

So, yes, formula is worse than breastmilk. Formula is aisgusting. Formula
diapers are absolutely vile. But, if your son really needs formula or
even just desperately wants it, give him formula

"Sue" writes:

I think you're doing fine, except I would stop all supplementing and let
Micheal nurse even if he seems hungry to you.

Letting a baby go hungry for a few days might not be a problem, but I
think that a mom who follows this kind of advice for more than a week
should do so only after taking the baby to a pediatrician and getting help
from a certified lactation consultant.

Women who've always had mediocre supply tend to have a much harder time
increasing their supply than women who've started out with a good supply.
Even though many people say, "Just cut out the formula and let your baby
nurse all the time to increase your supply!," I have a hard time finding
any studies that say that letting a baby go hungry for extended periods
(i.e., more than a week) while the mom builds supply is actually safe for
the baby.

"Em" writes:

minutes at a time (one side per time). When he was going through his three
week growth spurt, he would nurse for about a hour at a time! Nursing a
*lot* is very, very normal and it doesn't mean that the baby isn't getting
enough milk, even if he seems hungry again "too soon." Your breasts are
continually making milk, so as long as Michael is latched on and sucking, he
is getting milk to drink and will not starve. If he knows he will get a

This is true when moms have a normal supply, but it's not true for moms
with a mediocre or really bad supply. Some babies of moms who nurse on
demand (me!) do, in fact, end up suffering from dehydration or showing
signs that they are failing to thrive.

If a mom has a lactation consultant who is keeping an eye on the baby
and will weigh the baby once in awhile to make sure it's on track, then a
tough love approach to growth spurts is cool.

Otherwise, the mom ought to be pretty vigilant about looking for signs
that there might be problems other a growth spurt. Example: my baby was
latched on all the time from birth. Except sometimes when she was sleepy
very deeply, she hardly ever went a whole hour without nursing for an
extended period. That constant nursing was probably the first sign that
something was wrong.

Analogy: some moms here probably avoid getting their babies vaccinated
against measles, but most do get measles shots for their babies because
unvaccinated babies have a very small chance of dying from the measles or
ending up with a severe, measles-related handicap. I don't know what the
exactly percentage is, but my guess is that it's something like 1 percent.

If your baby is always hungry, maybe there's something like a 1 percent
chance that s/he's malnourished enough for the malnourishment to cause
problems with development.

If you'd spend $50 to take your baby to the doctor, if necessary, to get
the right vaccinations to ward off the effects of communicable diseases,
why not spend the $50 to hire an LC who can help you ward off the possible
effects of a crummy milk supply?

Irrational Number writes:

(1) From about 2 weeks through 7 weeks, I nursed about
45 minutes per hour during the day (and about every
two hours in the night), meaning I had 15 minutes each
hour to pee and get a drink. I piled magazines
galore by my bed and had my TV remote at the ready.
Hubby would come home and I was in the exact same

So you really nursed less than I did. My baby was latched on so much at
night that I started to get severe back and hip pain because it was so
hard to figure out how to turn over.

So, sure, some women can nurse their way to having enough milk. And some
women can do the splits and some women can make really good souffles.
Some women can't though, and it's very important to avoid letting
breastfeeding perfectionism get in the way of helping a baby who truly
needs formula.

I think the only way to know whether the baby really needs formula is to
weigh the baby a lot and have a lactation consultant who's familiar with
signs of failure to thrive look at the baby every few days to make sure
it's still thriving.

(KC) writes:

- no more bottlefeeding. Feed all supplements with a syringe,
supplemental nursing system, sippy cup or cup. Make it so the only
place the baby's sucking needs are met is your nipple.

For a baby who's already more than a few weeks old, my advice would be to
go with a cup, spoon or bottle, not a Supplemental Nursing System.

My experience with the SNS was that it was really hard to get the milk
tube in the baby's mouth in the right place. Placing the tube was so
difficult that I'd often accept a bad, painful latch just because I was so
happy the tube was in. So, using the SNS hurt. When I wasn't using the
SNS, my daughter seemed to get angry at my breast for not giving her
enough milk.

When we switched to supplementing with a bottle, my daughter seemed to
understand that bottle was different from the breast, and she started to
use a different suckling technique for each.

Is it possible to weigh your baby before and after a feeding? This was
very helpful for me. If you are seeing that your baby is 2-3 oz
heavier then that's probably adequate for this age, no? This in my
opinion would be a better gauge than the amount you get through
pumping because baby is better at removing milk.

If you are seeing 1.5oz or less difference, then I would think there
is a supply issue and it's not just a growth spurt or another issue.
You may want to step up the frequency of your pumping sessions (I know
it's not fun) and consider taking some galactogogues.

Also, when I was having supply issues, many people told me that after
nursing a baby would often take a bottle even if he/she had gotten
enough from the breast. So can you do the before/after weighing a few
times and based on that maybe stop supplementing for a week? Of course
you would want to keep an eye on diaper output and weight gain just in
case. This is a hot button issue, but maybe a pacifier would help
soothe after nursing? (Providing you've established that baby is
getting enough?)

I don't think a week of being slightly hungry until your supply
increases will harm baby. My dd was only 1/2 pound heavier than her
birth weight at 6 weeks and has experienced absolutely no ill effects,
physical or cognitive. She's now in the 75th percentile for weight and
is hitting all of her milestones on time or ahead of schedule. She was
exclusively breastfed until 8 weeks but because of my supply issues I
then started supplementing. She got part breastmilk part soy formula
until she was 6 months and is now 7 months and exclusively formula fed
and doing fine.

So although you will run into militant lactivists who would have you
believe that formula is poison, it really isn't. I was strongly
against supplementing myself, and held out until 8 weeks postpartum
before admitting that BF wasn't working out. I would say to give BF
your absolute best shot, and then you won't be wracked with guilt
later because you will have tried everything.

-V.