upset at nanny -- vent

Dawn Lawson wrote in message news:tPvWb.474356$X%5.391618@pd7tw2no...
Marie wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:24:38 GMT, Dawn Lawson
wrote:

Marie wrote:
I know LOTS of people who have spotless houses, hot meals, and enjoyable
children because they stay at home.


Hot meals, I have. Enjoyable children, *I* think so! I guess I do too
much with the kids to spend too much time doing other things. (I
homeschool and the kids are the main part of my life)

You made quite a sweeping statement that no one with similar commitments
has a spotless house. I've been pondering this, as I know literally
dozens of families that do, AND they do things like make most of their
own clothing, food (bread, canning, butchering, etc) AND are very
involved in community and such. I'm finding it very interesting to try
to pinpoint the difference between these families (where i'm guessing
the average number of kids is 4 or 5) and families I am reading about
here where there's *one* child and a SAH parent, and the household so
frazzled it seems ok to walk past animal waste because it's too
difficult to manage to clean it up. (Ok that's not said commonly, but
at least two people have posted just that)

I'm curious because I find the first group to be a calm, warm, loving
group, with welcoming homes, and a commitment to quality workmanship. I
find the second group to be frazzled and harried and generally
struggling to keep one disaster or another at bay. There's clearly some
fundamental difference between the SAHM and the communities in both
groups.

Coupla thoughts:
1. If the calm group tends to have 4 or 5 kids, they're by definition
much more experienced parents. Would be interesting to know if they
felt that they've gotten better at juggling their kids and other tasks
over time -- maybe when kid #1 was a baby they didn't have it all down
quite so smoothly.

2. With 4 or 5 kids the older ones are probably old enough to have
chores and help out a little. Are the youngest kids in these larger,
more together families as little as the kid in the more harried
one-child families? Even a few months makes such a big difference in
the first year.

3. In addition to the temperment of the adults, which would obviously
account for some differences you describe, the temperment of the kid
matters too. I recall once you mentioning gardening with your bub in
your sling. My Bug would put up with that for about 3 minutes -- if
she's in the sling and I'm not walking, she wants out.

I remember before Bug was born I looked forward to honing my
home-making skills on my year home with her. I figured that after a
few weeks-months to recuperate from childbirth I'd get better at
keeping the house clean, get good at cheap grocery shopping, become a
better cook, and maybe twoards the end of the year tackle a few
outstanding projects. HA!! The state of our house now is about
equivalent to what it was on my busiest months as a medical student.
Even I still don't really understand why I don't get more done, though
I've figured out some of it (until about a week ago she rarely napped
an hour or more in her crib, and she doesn't like to hang out in her
exersaucer for more than 10-15 minutes -- makes it hard to get any
useful quantity of time free to do anything other than pull her away
from the trouble she's quite skillful at finding). I wouldn't say I'm
at all harried or stressed out, but my goals for what to get done each
day are very modest, as I've learned over time what's realistic.

(One of my problems is reading this NG -- I enjoy it, but probably
could have spent the last 30-45 minutes more productively than
switching between writing this and chasing after the Bug!)

Kate
and the Bug, 8 months

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:29:11 GMT, "Mom2Aries"
wrote:
Hmm, maybe that means it will get easier as he gets older. He's only just
one year right now, so he still needs a lot of attention, and doesn't like
to play by himself, so I get naptimes to study.

My best friend started graduate school last semester, taking one
class, and this semester she has 3 or 4. Her son is 14 months old. She
says it's hard to get the time to study and do homework because of the
baby. Her mother also watches him for her, though I will start
watching him occasionally in a couple of months.

I'm currently getting all of the pre-requisites for the nursing program out
of the way. Then I want to get my RN degree, work for a while, then
eventually I'd like to go to medical school. So I'm looking at... 20 years?
LOL. This semester I have both day and night classes. During the day my
mom watches him, and my classes during the day are together, so I'm gone
from him only 1 1/2 hours T, Th, and 3 hours MWF. At night on T, TH, his
dad watches him for 4 hours on Tues but only 2 on Th (tues is lab and
lecture). W night my grandmother watches him for 2 hours and then we all
have dinner over there.

I'm missing out on studying, most always, because I can't do anything with a
baby in my lap... he likes eating my books LOL. And after paying up some of
200 dollars for some of those books, I just don't want him to eat them. I
was lucky though to get a pel grant that pays my way through, with some
extra money at the end of the semester because I go to a community college
and the tutition isn't nearly half of my award. So I get reimbursed for the
horrible gas for my car, and food.

At my college, most of the people are just out of highschool, but then
again, so am I. Only difference is, tehre biggest problem is if Johnny will
call them again... mine is whether or not I'm spending enough time with my
son and enough time on school work, and will I have money for diapers this
week? I'm 18, and get told I could just put it off until he's older, and
even got chastized for choosing to better myself (like you I did bad in
highschool, only I barely passed with a 2.0... but I have a 3.4 in college)
told I was a bad mother for leaving him to go to school. I didn't leave him
until he was a little over 6 months old, and was nver gone for him for
longer than 4 hours at a time, and got to play with him for an hour or 4
between classes.

That is tough! I got pregnant my senior year and my due date was the
day of graduation (I lasted two more weeks ;o) When that daughter was
6 weeks old, I went back to work at McD's (making $5.50 which back
then was pretty good for fast food) and also started college. I didn't
make it to the end of that first semester, I quit when my daughter was
about 5.5 months old, I had failed every class but medical
terminology. Everyone was telling me it was the best thing for me to
do but it was horrible! I think the reason it was so much better the
second time I went, even with an extra kid, was because I matured, I
wanted to go, and I had a husband. I think if I were to do it over I'd
have either only done college, or only worked, but not both. It was
too much *for me*.

This weekend will be my catch up weekend, I'm so behind on my studying...
nothing's been going right these last few weeks. Thankfully though, I think
my brain has settled back into my head :-)

Well good luck keeping it there ;o) It's hard work going to school!
You only have about 3 years to go for your RN, right? I think the RN
program at our tech college here is 2 years, and depending on how many
prerequisites you have it can be an extra year.
Marie

i got a degree in computer science
i was a single mother of a toddler and an autistic
grade school child
it was hard,nearky killed me
my sister became an rn with 3 kids,one born while she was in
her last year and then she became single again
its hard, but possible eve in some realllllly hard situations
good luck and best wishes!
"Marie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:29:11 GMT, "Mom2Aries"
wrote:
Hmm, maybe that means it will get easier as he gets older. He's
only just
one year right now, so he still needs a lot of attention, and
doesn't like
to play by himself, so I get naptimes to study.

My best friend started graduate school last semester, taking one
class, and this semester she has 3 or 4. Her son is 14 months old.
She
says it's hard to get the time to study and do homework because of
the
baby. Her mother also watches him for her, though I will start
watching him occasionally in a couple of months.

I'm currently getting all of the pre-requisites for the nursing
program out
of the way. Then I want to get my RN degree, work for a while,
then
eventually I'd like to go to medical school. So I'm looking at...
20 years?
LOL. This semester I have both day and night classes. During the
day my
mom watches him, and my classes during the day are together, so I'm
gone
from him only 1 1/2 hours T, Th, and 3 hours MWF. At night on T,
TH, his
dad watches him for 4 hours on Tues but only 2 on Th (tues is lab
and
lecture). W night my grandmother watches him for 2 hours and then
we all
have dinner over there.

I'm missing out on studying, most always, because I can't do
anything with a
baby in my lap... he likes eating my books LOL. And after paying
up some of
200 dollars for some of those books, I just don't want him to eat
them. I
was lucky though to get a pel grant that pays my way through, with
some
extra money at the end of the semester because I go to a community
college
and the tutition isn't nearly half of my award. So I get
reimbursed for the
horrible gas for my car, and food.

At my college, most of the people are just out of highschool, but
then
again, so am I. Only difference is, tehre biggest problem is if
Johnny will
call them again... mine is whether or not I'm spending enough time
with my
son and enough time on school work, and will I have money for
diapers this
week? I'm 18, and get told I could just put it off until he's
older, and
even got chastized for choosing to better myself (like you I did
bad in
highschool, only I barely passed with a 2.0... but I have a 3.4 in
college)
told I was a bad mother for leaving him to go to school. I didn't
leave him
until he was a little over 6 months old, and was nver gone for him
for
longer than 4 hours at a time, and got to play with him for an hour
or 4
between classes.

That is tough! I got pregnant my senior year and my due date was the
day of graduation (I lasted two more weeks ;o) When that daughter
was
6 weeks old, I went back to work at McD's (making $5.50 which back
then was pretty good for fast food) and also started college. I
didn't
make it to the end of that first semester, I quit when my daughter
was
about 5.5 months old, I had failed every class but medical
terminology. Everyone was telling me it was the best thing for me to
do but it was horrible! I think the reason it was so much better the
second time I went, even with an extra kid, was because I matured, I
wanted to go, and I had a husband. I think if I were to do it over
I'd
have either only done college, or only worked, but not both. It was
too much *for me*.

This weekend will be my catch up weekend, I'm so behind on my
studying...
nothing's been going right these last few weeks. Thankfully
though, I think
my brain has settled back into my head :-)

Well good luck keeping it there ;o) It's hard work going to school!
You only have about 3 years to go for your RN, right? I think the RN
program at our tech college here is 2 years, and depending on how
many
prerequisites you have it can be an extra year.
Marie

Akuvikate wrote:

Dawn Lawson wrote in message news:tPvWb.474356$X%5.391618@pd7tw2no...



You made quite a sweeping statement that no one with similar commitments
has a spotless house. I've been pondering this, as I know literally
dozens of families that do, AND they do things like make most of their
own clothing, food (bread, canning, butchering, etc) AND are very
involved in community and such. I'm finding it very interesting to try
to pinpoint the difference between these families (where i'm guessing
the average number of kids is 4 or 5) and families I am reading about
here where there's *one* child and a SAH parent, and the household so
frazzled it seems ok to walk past animal waste because it's too
difficult to manage to clean it up. (Ok that's not said commonly, but
at least two people have posted just that)

I'm curious because I find the first group to be a calm, warm, loving
group, with welcoming homes, and a commitment to quality workmanship. I
find the second group to be frazzled and harried and generally
struggling to keep one disaster or another at bay. There's clearly some
fundamental difference between the SAHM and the communities in both
groups.


Coupla thoughts:
1. If the calm group tends to have 4 or 5 kids, they're by definition
much more experienced parents. Would be interesting to know if they
felt that they've gotten better at juggling their kids and other tasks
over time -- maybe when kid #1 was a baby they didn't have it all down
quite so smoothly.

I suppose, though I find it somewhat ironic that if you have it together
with one kid, someone will say "oh, sure, but try that with two or more"
and if you have it together with more kids someone will say "of course,
you've done it before" but if you say "what will kid #2 be like?"
someone will say "babies are all different, so what you think works with
#1 might not at all with #2"

Plus I've known a lot of these families from baby #1, and they've always
been this way.

2. With 4 or 5 kids the older ones are probably old enough to have
chores and help out a little. Are the youngest kids in these larger,
more together families as little as the kid in the more harried
one-child families? Even a few months makes such a big difference in
the first year.

At some point, of course, they HAD to be that young. :-) And as I said,
I don't see the same abandonment of things other than the baby in any of
the families.

3. In addition to the temperment of the adults, which would obviously
account for some differences you describe, the temperment of the kid
matters too. I recall once you mentioning gardening with your bub in
your sling. My Bug would put up with that for about 3 minutes -- if
she's in the sling and I'm not walking, she wants out.

I get a sense people picture me flitting about trimming roses with DS
snuggled up to me. Would it help to replace "gardening" with "working
in the field"? And of course, if DS didn't want to be in the sling, I
had a little tent for him, or I would work around it so that I could get
the garden work done and have a mostly happy baby as well, working when
he was peaceful to watch or play, playing with him or tending to him
when he needed me. And if you want to, you can get one hell of a lot
done in three minutes.

HA!! The state of our house now is about
equivalent to what it was on my busiest months as a medical student.
Even I still don't really understand why I don't get more done, though
I've figured out some of it (until about a week ago she rarely napped
an hour or more in her crib, and she doesn't like to hang out in her
exersaucer for more than 10-15 minutes -- makes it hard to get any
useful quantity of time free to do anything other than pull her away
from the trouble she's quite skillful at finding).

That's no different from at least some of the moms I'm thinking of from
"group A" Babies are babies, more or less. I suppose it's what you do
with the time you have and what you consider to be busy.

The other thing I keep hearing is that stuff is left til it's too
overwhelming to even consider, and I suppose that a spotless house is
NOT one in which nothing needs to be done, but one in which everything
that needs to be done IS being done.....a dynamic state instead of a
Martha Stewart snapshot. Waiting til the floor or cupboards are caked
with grime, or the floor pulls your socks off will make it all seem
overwhelming.

Dawn

Elizabeth Reid wrote:

Dawn Lawson wrote in message news:WkEWb.466772$JQ1.155936@pd7tw1no...


Okay, I'll buy that. Certainly I would say that those qualities seem to
be at least some of the difference between me and other people who find
what I manage to get done rather amazing. Frankly, I have to wonder
what they would think if they saw me in "full production" (I'm not used
to city life, and find it rather less of a challenge than I prefer)

But still, these families are basically one community, and I wonder how
they manage to so consistantly show the traits. Perhaps it has to do
with how they *value* the work ethic and therefore how they keep going
better through the mud-bog times. I get a general sense that the
average member of the "opposite" group I described tends to value a lot
more disconnected time (TV, etc) and a greater willingness to "leave
that til later" than what I see in the first group.


Is there also any kind of difference between whether the
getting-things-done group and the other group about whether
time spent with kids should be spent on 'kid' activities or
spent doing work together and making it fun?

Yes, I'm beginning to think so. The children are encouraged to play,
are played with, but are not expected to take over the entire family.
They ARE family and so the day goes along in a balanced way. But the
children are not attended to at the expense of everything else. I'm not
sure that the work is made "fun" in a "wheee!" sense, but it is done in
a pleasantly matter-of-fact way, iykwim. And they are some of the
families in which i have heard the most genuine mirth and delight in
each other, and voices raised in song, and open affection.

I don't know if it's a greater willingness to 'ignore'
the kids in a benign way, or a greater ability to involve
them in adult household activities, or maybe those activities
are intrinsically more involving if they're obviously
part of the pattern of life rather than just 'tasks', or
what.

I think the last is more what I sense. The children are drawn into the
pattern of life, from early on. They have child roles, not little grown
up roles, imo, so I don't think they are being made to grow up early or
whatever, and I certainly don't htink I could call what I see "benign
ignoring" of the children in any way. Although, when you say that, i DO
think that the children are allowed to play on their own, in their own
ways, and to "run their own lives" a bit more, in their child roles, and
there is less emphasis on directing them and more on enjoying the
pattern of life that includes all the family.

Dawn, hoping I'm not making a hash of explaining this, though it's
coming clearer to me, and i'm enjoying the chance to examine my own
beliefs and what I desire for my little family.

"Mom2Aries"
I'm wondering if I'm the only one who feels this way, so I'm going to ask.
I've done it all :-), been a mom and worked, been a mom and stayed at home,
and am currently a mom who goes to school full time and worked, then mom and
just school. Did you, as a mom who went to school, ever feel like the times
when you were mom and going to school were the hardest?

I personally was done with school long before I had kids. Dh was in
school though. He feels like it was harder to be in school then to
work. As a family it was harder to have him in school then work.
Financially of course it was much much harder because all the money
goes out and none comes in ;-).

--

Nikki

In article 8ntWb.39185$QJ3.1126@fed1read04, "Circe"
wrote:

So I guess I'd like to see women everywhere having the freedom to *choose*
what sort of motherhood they want to do without any preconceptions or
prejudices about those choices.

The problem is that such choices are made within a legislative and cultural
framework -- which will always mean that some options are very likely and
others impossible. For example, I probably have access to the best maternity
conditions in Australia (I am in the NSW public service). I had a year's
maternity leave (9 weeks paid, the rest unpaid), followed by a year of leave
without pay (LWOP). I could have taken more LWOP, but I expected to use the
remaining two years of LWOP to work part-time in my full-time position. As it
happened, I transferred to a part-time position and now work a 17.5-hour week
(with flexitime, shift allowance, etc). My long leave, of course, was only
possible because DH is in a well-paid job.

Under NSW law the MINIMUM standard for maternity leave is 6 weeks unpaid
leave. If that had been my situation, I would have left for SAHM-hood at the
end of my 6 weeks -- but if DH and I were on low wages (where such conditions
are found), I would have had to keep working, and most likely use relatives
for child care -- even though said relatives really aren't up to it.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

In article ,
"Tine Andersen" wrote:

Things are very different. Daycare is 250-300$ per month. I make 3000$ after
taxes.

Comparison with Australia:
Day care in Sydney -- say $40/day (it varies enormously) = $800/month
Average wage $35000pa = $2917/month. Nearly a third of average *gross* income
on daycare... OTOH I think there is some kind of rebate for people on lower
incomes, but don't want to wade through the relevant website to find out!

I can take some hours off - with full pay - to go to the dentist,
doctor, what have you with the kids. When they are ill I can take one day
off - fully payed - and so can DH. When I'm on sick leave I'm payed my full
salary.

Same for me, except that the carer's leave is more generous, and usually
"bundled" with sick leave (ie, I can use my own sick leave to look after my
kids, if necessary). Not sure dental appointments are included, though.
However, I am still under a union-sponsored award, and outside the award
system life is a bit grimmer.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

In article ,
(Elizabeth Reid) wrote:

Is there also any kind of difference between whether the
getting-things-done group and the other group about whether
time spent with kids should be spent on 'kid' activities or
spent doing work together and making it fun?

[...] I don't know if it's a greater willingness to 'ignore'
the kids in a benign way, or a greater ability to involve
them in adult household activities, or maybe those activities
are intrinsically more involving if they're obviously
part of the pattern of life rather than just 'tasks', or
what.

I think you've hit it. I would guess that the more "together" families
approach life like permaculturists, seeking multiple yields from each
activity. An example from my own life would be that doing the washing
includes DS helping with sorting, pushing the buttons on the machine and
playing with the pegs. The yields are in our relationships, DS's learning of
life skills (washing and cooperation), DS's being out of mischief, and our
washing getting done. The alternative would be to set DS up with some
activity while I get the washing done, which would (or *might*!) keep him out
of mischief, but wouldn't build relationships or skills... and doing the
washing on my own is a lot less fun without DS to talk to.

I'd also like to say that neglect-within-limits is a good thing -- children
need to explore things on their own without their parents hanging over them
all the time. For DS, who is not 3, that means free-ranging in my back yard
(though i tend to keep a sharp eye on him when he heads for the vegie patch!).

However, I suspect that Ma and her peers mainly had a greater ability to
involve children in household tasks, and that the importance of the task was
obvious. If you don't pull the carrots, there won't be any for dinner.
Remember that Pa could plough a field at 11yo, so he must have started
learning to at age 9 or so.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

"Circe" wrote in message news:nJNWb.39371$QJ3.7028@fed1read04...


Incidentally, my brown husband of Mexican descent is often mistaken for
being either Greek or Hindi by people who meet him. People who are also of
Mexican descent easily recognize him as "one of them", but his features and
skin tone are in a range that could have a lot of potential cultural
affiliations.

Same here, but *everyone* thinks I'm "one of them" - those you
mentioned, and add in Iranian/Persian, Italian, Arab, Spanish
(basically all North Africa/Mediterranean region as well as all Latin
America). It's kind of fun when people try to speak to you in their
language thinking you must understand because of how you look

My blond nieces and nephews don't quite have the same problem, my half
black nieces and nephews do...Those that are half black (there are 9
of them) cover a full range of shades of brown to black. We're still
working on ours, but I suspect they'll be more on the white end of the
spectrum.