In response to Kate

Kate wrote:
This isn't the first sign. This is years down the line and you're doing
the same things and getting the same results. In fact, things are
getting more complicated. You have another mouth to feed and a
disinterested mother on your hands now. Why you ask?

Yes , I asked for advice , I asked why?, little did I expect the answers I
received. You who knows the history better than anyone have attacked me . I can
take it, don't get me wrong, I even can agree with some of what *You feel*
because of the history between us. Yes Kate I know...........It is o.k. that
you want to tear me down for what I already tore myself down for. I came back a
long way from the darkness I fell into when Gayle died. You are not telling me
something I don't already know and that I haven't beat myself up enough for. I
could not have become this responsible for my behavior and fall back then, at
this time in my life If I didn't finally forgive myself for failing my
daughter. I know where I have been and I came back because I loved my children
enough to wake up and realise I was failing them. No one can possibly judge me
as harshly as you just have for grieving , who said there was a right way to
grieve ? You sure didn't during that years worth of comfort and support you
offered me. People crash emotionally ,people do all the time, if a family
therapist is what you say you wanna be then you need to start seeing this. Good
strong parents fall under stress (except of course the perfect ones here) This
is the kind of troubles you will be facing with some of the families you are
going to deal with. My family is a perfect dysfunctional example of what the
world is full of. I never denied this , so Pauls little dribble does not effect
me. I came from dyfunction and yes I am not perfect and I am human. None of
this should be a deciding factor on the kind of parent I may be. I work hard
and support my family financially , emotionally and spiritually. I am proud
that I came back from the depths of hell to be what I always tried to be for my
kids. My fall had some good lessons for my daughters too ya know and they have
said so themselves , do you think I don't talk to my kids about that , what
happened to me ? Do you think my apology to them is not enough ? For them it
is. I do and have and had family therapy with my daughter Sara who was the one
there during my crash and fall. My young 15 yr. old child I so abused looked me
in the face and said she understood and was proud of how I fought my way back
to live this life . I do not need your acceptance to who I was then or who I am
now. I have my daughters respect and she is not this angry , ragefull, child
you remember from our conversations . You know what was going on in the
begining of my grief and HERS. You know I was involved with many doctors and
school personell and was present at the IEP meetings and helping to get to the
core of my daughters issues.You know I was fighting tooth and nail for her ,
You knew it all ? I never lied to the people helping us they knew I would
rather had been home hiding from my grief instead I sat in meetings with these
people crying and apologising for the way I was. I fought the diagnosis of
Manic depression and bi polar after trying the meds that did nothiong but put
my child down to non functioning.Yes I was drinking then too but I was not ,
ignorant to my daughters issues and needs and YOU played a very important role
in the strength I had back then . There was all kinds of professionals involved
in our family from before Gayle died . I was sharp enough to know and
challenge the drs refusal to see grief being the main important issue for my
daughter , be it Gayles death and the loss of me who was pretty shot and
struggling to maintain my own grief.There was not as much failure on my part as
you portray in calling me a drunk and in saying I destroyed my daughter with
selfishness. You can not condemn people who have mental and or emotional
factors effecting their parenting , You know the incredible stressors that
played a part in my fall, You know we lost our home, my job, there was no life
insurance to sit back on, our savings were depleated long before Gayle died,
you did not live my struggles to maintain an income and care for my dying
partner and my child living in a hostile atmosphere , I was all about caring
for my family , not myself , I have been so terribly unselfish in my actions
for years that to be beaten with your words is almost laughable except I can
not laugh at the thought that this you think will be helpful to hurting and
troubled families? After Gayle died we were literally homeless , We slept on
the couches in Gayles daughters apartment we survived that and I had just saved
enough to get us in our own place and lost my job 2 months later. We survived
on 1300.00 unemployment wages and C.S. ( go for it Paul!) for that first year
in an apartment paying 675.oo a month in rent alone, I could not afford and
yeah I know even the 5.oo a week to tie one on once a week was too much to
spend but yeah I did. I functioned all week and on fridays got **** faced yep I
did. Who can say they have never? If so good for you I am glad you have never
been pushed to the edge. As a prospective therapist in my opinion, you really
need to step back and re think your approach, cause if I was weak enough you
could have really caused incredible harm to my family by shutting me down with
guilt and grief again. That is not your job. To judge a families leadership in
times of trouble. Your place is supporting them and helping them to be better ,
not blame, you can't blame, this is counter productive to healing and helping a
family get better. The **** about all this Kate is you know this already ? you
lived it with me that year? you supported me and helped me , and saved my life
and even though what happened did, I never stopped knowing that. You won't talk
to me privatly and that is fine, I respect your choice, but you opened this up
here and I will not allow you to do this to me. I will not allow you to act as
if you do not know more about me than what i shared briefly with these other
self serving quick to condemn and judge self rightious non supportive idiots
that think they got the number on parenting. For instance I read the pot
smoking boys mothers post and all of you blamed her , people do not come to a
support group to be beaten down and blamed, ya know they already do blame
themselves what the best advice is for her is to seek a support group that
deals with drug and alcohol abuse , embrace her family and seek professional
help. Educate herself on the problem and get outside help. And NEVER NEVER come
here again.

-----------------
Kate wrote:
Think about the
times when your daughter needed love and support and you were busy.
Think about her acting out and you were taking care of your own need to
get numb to get through the day. Gee, is it any big wonder that your
daughter has sought love from someone? This time it's a young man. Do
you think for one minute that her choices will get any healthier?

It was not like that ,you spoke to me everyday in e-mail,You of all people at
that time knows what I did on a daily basis, the doctors appt, the counsiling,
the school appt. the calls from the school , the difficulties iI was having
that first year you act as if you have not known , You helped me to make some
decisions when I could'nt think staright, when I could not sort it out , you
helped me do it one step at a time , YOU told me I was a good mother to be
doing all I was back then ? in my grief, why? If this is not what you truelly
believed did you lie to me ? Yes she spent much time at her friends house ,
the girls, who's mother sent prepared food home to me and I have been grateful
that people cared enough to be there for my daughter and for me and had
compassion and care and understanding of our grief. My daughter has been
searching for the affections of a male figure since she was 13 years old , not
because of my grieving ,but because of many things, lets start with peer
pressure, lets end with her father being an asshole. Jimmy came along and he
was a ray of sunshine in her life, she calmed down , took pride in herself ,she
cared about her appearance she went to school and she had begun to build her
self esteem back.( I guess I sort of can relate to this kind of pick me up
because of the changes in myself when Mari came along) they had been going
steady for 8 months and had just told me they were gonna get married when they
were 18 . I said O.K. Lets hope your dreams come true. Then shortly there after
they came to me that they were pregnant. I went with what I knew. I went with
what they said, and they did not want to abort or give up their child. I did
what I feel was and is the right thing to do. I support them. Yeah I could of
forced my daughter into making a terrible mistake and have an abotion , yeah I
could have forced her to have the baby and give it away, That was not what my
choice was and I do not regret my decision to support them. As much as I have
to sacrifice to do this ,I had another 2-3 years to finish raising my own
daughter and together she would learn the responsibility of her child. I stand
by thier decision to keep thier child and as a family this can work. They could
have taken the easy way out but they chose the long hard road. Again I stand by
them. Do not condemn me or try to make me some sick ass woman that thinks this
baby is hers. Far , far from the truth. This is my grandchild and I adore her
yes and I will see that she has everything she needs and that includes good
parents.Until these 16 year olds adjust,yes there is more on me . Untill they
walk out my door able to give the baby an adult outlook and adult headset she
belongs in an adults supervision. They still need an adults supervision. That
is family to me and was as well to my dad that taught us family comes first .
We are not harming this baby to keep her with her family. I am sorry for those
people that think for one minute we would be doing this for any reason other
than the love of Sara Jimmy and Jaime and to give them all a fighting chance to
see thier own family stay together . This is what they want and I am willing to
help them that is it. No underlying reason.

------------------
Kate wrote:
Let me put it another way. You won't like this one as much as you
didn't like the other but I will have my say and be done with this.
Your daughter saw you in trouble. She saw you losing the will to live
and harming yourself... she saw you escaping. She doesn't want to lose
you. She tried everything to get your attention and make you see how
much she needs you but nothing worked until she got pregnant.

wrong Kate, she got pregnant 13 months ago. Gayle died Feb 3, 2001 thats 25
months after that Sara became pregnant and, and I stopped drinking shortly
after you and I ended our "friendship"which was around the time you went
skating and broke your arm , which was about 24 months ago.( give or take a
month or two) Sara and I attended family counsiling for 6 months rebuilt our
relationship Sara met Jimmy in the middle of that, our family life was pretty
normal as normal is ? We were laughing more and celebrating more, we were
coming out of the dark so to speak and I know we still have days that are hard
, that grief seeps in and the difference is we are sharing those feelings now
and not running and trying to hide our pain from one another. Sara had me back
a year before this pregnancy and our home had been a secure and loving
atmosphere . We rebuilt by this time and I disagree with your scenario of why?
My daughter and her boyfriend decided they wanted a baby. That is why.

----------
She had
your attention while she was pregnant

yeah , she had much attention from everybody, most pregnant women do smile I
remember.
--------
but now the baby's here and you're
focus is on the baby.


Sorry, sounds good but this would be Mari, not me, I work all day and spend an
hour here and there with the baby at my chioce until recently when the strange
behaviour began with my daughter. Now I do more to try and help my daughter
through what she is feeling, which is............... ready ? Postpartum
Depression. Yep strange enough that no one here had the ability to see through
thier want to condemn me as a parent and make this all about me. All about my
daughter just being a lousy mother. Sara is suffering from a very common
depression that she is even more susseptible to because she is already on meds
for major depression her meds have been increased. Seems the levels of hormones
changed because of the pregnancy and this was the result. As the responsible
parent I am we saw the doctor about this behavior she has had, I am somewhat
relieved that we know now what this is and we can deal with it without getting
all crazy . It is scary but it is easier to deal with a known reason rather
than a mystery.
-------------

She gave you a reason to live... that she needs
you.

this has been my reason to live all my life. The baby was not her reason for me
to live, I have been living since you decided I didn't need you anymore. I had
to deal with the come back of that on my own too.
----------

That baby is here because of you to give you a reason to stick
around.

I have strong doubts that my daughter had this baby at this time in our lives
to give me a reason for anything. I have maintained a secure job for 18 months
, have been involved in a very compassionate relationship with someone that has
the patience and unconditional love to embrace myself my daughter her
boyfriend and my granddaughter and help us maintain a healthy outlook on our
lives again. I have been happy again and this shines through to my daughter for
heavens sakes I know you are mistaken .
-----------

But you're screwing up, in her eyes... you're no longer focused
on your daughter. The baby has taken your daughter's place so she's
taking the baby away so that you will see *her* again.

Post partum depression , I haven't screwed up , my focus is right where it
needs to be , there is no replacement here, just an addition, I did bring my
concerns here in hopes some good ideas would flourish , In hopes that I had
gained a little respect to be treated with compassion, What I got was a bunch
of bull**** shoved up my ass and I am glad I know how to deal with that. My
daughter has decided she didn't know what was going on inside but it was not
good and we went to the doctor and it is post partum depression. There will be
no home change for the baby by my daughters recognition that she was not
thinking straight. There is adult supervision enough to maintain an adult in
the house 24/7. Her suffering from depression is again not reason to call the
adoption agancy ...........
or give up or blame me for a hormonal imbalance.
----------------

They aren't doing a good job of taking care of the baby even with your
help. You said so yourself.

No I do not recall saying that? I recall saying the daddy has been putting in
more in the care department while my daughter slept and stared off into space.
Verbalized how exhausted she was , and didn't think she was a very good mother?
and yes we put more into the care for a while because we saw the need to.
Things are getting back to a normal schedule for all. The only part I am not
changing is an adult close by at all times for now.

----------
Kate wrote
If you had been able to control the drinking maybe things would be
different now.

yeah maybe ..........but looking back will not change today, not now. That was
looked at 2 years ago and I have not had a lick of alcohol or any other non
prescribed mood altering drug in two years. That I am proud of , that is not an
easy thing for anyone to do once they have self medicated.

---------
Kate wrote:
Children need ONE functioning parent. You were not functioning for a
long period of time.

I was functioning? That entire time you were involved with us did you once tell
me these words? NO , you gave me your thoughts and ideas as to what to do about
what Sara was doing , what the doctors were diagnosing, what the meds did to
her , you were aware of my appointments on a daily basis and you knew when i
was lost and needed more. How can you say I was not functioning for a long
time? That year was the hardest one cause I was so deep into my loss, it was so
fresh I was so devastated and so was Sara and both of us were raging lunatics
at one point (tell me you don't remember) and yet you continued to support and
tell me I was doing a good job, Why the change?. I can not understand what you
are doing ? You are the last person in this group that should be posting
unknowledgeable trash to me.
--------

Kate wrote:
Kids should not have to live in a home that is
headed by a drunk. Kids should not have to feel like their parents
can't afford their food, medical care, clothing for school and that the
parent made a choice that the booze was more important than the
child.... that's not a child's responsibility nor should they ever feel
that way. Struggle is one thing.. when it's the parent's assuming
responsibility. You did not assume responsibility. You gave up and
numbed out with the booze. You retreated into your own world and your
daughter was very afraid for you.

Absolutely , if that were the way it was you would be correct.......... I was
using alcohol yes I have admitted that, I never said I was a roll in the gutter
wino, You are painting this picture that is not true, I was functioning making
and attending appointments with Drs. school, counsilors, yes I got into a habit
that I watched myself fall into, and before the picture you paint here
developed I got help. I do not doubt my daughter may have been afraid for me ,
I can not change the past I can be a better, present and future and that is
all.Yes I did retreat to a point and again I grieved my way you grieved yours .
I lost differently than you. I was not as strong as you, I am me. You had your
own struggles prior to Phils death , I had my own and they were way different.
Your life after phils death was way different than mine, we grieved differently
.. I did not have the financial benefits you had, nor the education in the field
that carries an understanding of the fall I was taking and the effects on my
daughter that I would cause. I made an uncontrollable mistake at that time in
my life, I paid dearly for what I did in guilt and suffering. I do not deserve
condemnation now for something in the past. The parenting I do now is not under
the influence and is from many months if not a year of therapy.I am not to
blame anymore.
---------------
Kate wrote:
That baby is not YOUR child. You are NOT the mother. Your daughter is.

Uh huh ? I know? uh huh? I know? What I meant was our household has more than
one child in it and I see no reason why I could not parent my daughter and look
after her daughter at the same time as in a family where more than one child
lived? Heres a Springer Joke...."My sister is really my mother " I do not like
that show any more than anyone else but if there is one truth to come out of it
is the world is F'cked up ............
My job is to do what is right for my daughter and given her diagnosis and
disability I am.


Yes
my daughter has issues to be taken care of first and foremost,

Kate wrote:
And just like you couldn't take care of yours when you were drinking,
your daughter can't take care of hers.

Is my daughter drinking or drugging ? did I miss something? what ? My daughters
issues are not about drinking or drugging, it is emotional , it is now
diagnosed as Postpartum depression and that can be dealt with now that we have
this knowledge.
I wanted to express what I was feeling from your hard to understand attack on
me ? What I haven't told them here you know and this is just bizzare to me. I
have tried to maintain a level head with the comments made to me bt others and
I may have come up short for good words or reactions to the attacks but I will
never allow people to trash me and treat me as something less than they when in
my heart I know they are wrong about me. Maybe my life would make a great
lifetime movie but I promise the ending is a happy one .

-------

"Bebelestrnge0721" wrote in message
...


Just another 'it's about me WHINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNE


whine snipped


Gee...........nothing left

'Kate wrote in message
...
On 24 Apr 2004 17:19:05 GMT, (Bebelestrnge0721)


Gees Kate.........why do you always attract the nuts?

'Kate wrote in message
...
On 24 Apr 2004 17:19:05 GMT, (Bebelestrnge0721)


Gees Kate.........why do you always attract the nuts?

self serving quick to condemn and judge self rightious non supportive
idiots
that think they got the number on parenting. For instance I read the pot
smoking boys mothers post and all of you blamed her , people do not come
to a
support group to be beaten down and blamed, ya know they already do blame
themselves what the best advice is for her is to seek a support group that
deals with drug and alcohol abuse , embrace her family and seek
professional
help. Educate herself on the problem and get outside help. And NEVER NEVER
come
here again.

-----------------
Kate wrote:
Think about the
times when your daughter needed love and support and you were busy.
Think about her acting out and you were taking care of your own need to
get numb to get through the day. Gee, is it any big wonder that your
daughter has sought love from someone? This time it's a young man. Do
you think for one minute that her choices will get any healthier?


Hi Bebe,
I have read your post and can see that you have had a tough time. I
appreciate your empathy. Coming on this group opened my eyes to what a self
righteous bunch most of them are. All I can say about Kate is that she must
be perfect. What puzzles me is how come she is a single parent? I can only
conclude she must be a widow. No-one that perfect could be divorced.
It isn't the things these people say so much as the way they say it. They
attack and judge rather than offer constructive advice.
You, like myself, have faced tough times and have comitted that terrible sin
of being human. We don't always make the right choices. We don't always put
our children first even though we try to. We aren't always strong enough.
But we try to be good parents the best way we know how.
Truth is, a bad parent, a truly bad parent, wouldn't even try to get advice
or support. They wouldn't give a damn. We do, and to this end we find
ourselves being shot down in flames.
I learned my lesson and won't be asking for any more advice from here.
Shelley.

I learned my lesson and won't be asking for any more advice from here.

That's a wise decision, since advise is not what you were seeking. You were
seeking a bunch of "Oh you poor thing, whatever you are doing must be right" --
guess maybe your friends are tired of giving that to you.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

Subject: In response to Kate

On 24 Apr 2004 17:19:05 GMT, (Bebelestrnge0721)

Bev wrote:
as harshly as you just have for grieving , who said there was a right way to
grieve ?


Kate wrote:
There is a wrong way when it endangers the self or harms the children of
the family. Grief is not an excuse for neglect. What if I decided that
I didn't want to feed the children because of grief? What if I ignored
a medical condition that one had?

Bev wrote:
Yes , you are right I do not disagree. I failed, I did the best I could , noone
wants to understand my confession nor recognise what it took to get my life and
parenting skills back on track, so be it. I know that I have paid the price and
deserve the chance to be whole again and that my daughters and my granddaughter
are in no danger nor will they suffer from my choice to be the parent they did
have and should of had before Gayle died. I don't give a rats ass who
understands anymore . The scenario as an example you give here Kate is not how
it was for us, there were outside people involved in our lives helping me back
from my breakdown, wether you care to believe me or not , you were one of them.
-----------------------
Bev wrote:
do you think I don't talk to my kids about that , what
happened to me ? Do you think my apology to them is not enough ?

Kate wrote:
I think that's up to them but regardless of whether they accept it,
these things still happened.

Bev wrote:
Yes things still happened, the family that my children grew up in was a loving
secure home, all those years of good parenting and love and time Gayle and I
put in to raise them healthy and happy did not go away because I fell when that
all ended. My life ended then , as well as my childrens grief I had many
stresses that I could not handle, My children were strong enough to see me
through this and as much as no child should have to face this yes mine did and
yes they are forgiving, and understanding, they know I am human.
------------------------------.
Bev wrote:
I do not need your acceptance to who I was then or who I am now..

Kate wrote:
I've never insisted that you measure up to any standard. I stated that
your actions created a situation. That they are connected is no big
mystery. I pointed out the connection. I didn't cause the situation.

Bev wrote:
Yes I do understand that, I was to blame, I can't continue to live my life in
a hole because of what happened. I put it back together and I am moving on. I
am doing what I feel is best for us as a family today.
---------------
Bev wrote:
I never lied to the people helping us they knew I would
rather had been home hiding from my grief instead I sat in meetings with
these
people crying and apologising for the way I was.

Kate wrote:
Actually, you lied by omission.

Bev wrote:
Yes I did, I am sorry, I can not justify it , I know my daughter didn't keep it
a secret.
--------------------
Bev wrote:
I fought the diagnosis of
Manic depression and bi polar after trying the meds that did nothiong but
put
my child down to non functioning.Yes I was drinking then too but I was not ,
ignorant to my daughters issues and needs and YOU played a very important
role
in the strength I had back then . There was all kinds of professionals
involved
in our family from before Gayle died .

Kate wrote:
I let you use me so that you would have a temporary lifeline. I never
expected a thank you. I never expected to have it out in the open. I
don't do that. I keep private things private. I would have prefered
that this be one.

Bev wrote:
Ouch Kate, "you let me *use* you" ? Geeze, very cold of you. The time we spent
, on line , on the phone, meant a lot to me. It was a lifeline yes, but girl
there is not much I held back from you and you know that and if you had no
intentions of accepting this to have been a friendship , I would of liked to
have known that ? You stopped comunicating , for whatever reason at the time
that was fine but you never closed it. You just stopped, no matter how I tried
to contact you , there was never a reply? You wanted it kept private, so did I.
You did not have to reply to me in this group. I did wonder if you would, You
hadn't for 2 years recognised my attempts to contact you. I guess now I
understand why, there never was a true connection as friends for you was there?
I don't want to do this here , damn it.

------------------------
Kate wrote:
It's from information that you posted here... nothing privately
spoken about.
Bev wrote:
I realised that Kate, you did know more is what I was saying, I was floored by
your opinion because I felt you understood from our past time of comunication
pretty much what the daily was for Sara and I . It was an "opposite" reaction
you gave me here. Different type of support I guess and I reacted with my
feelings about it.
--------------------------------
Kate wrote:
The thing is... if you don't look for the patterns, you'll never see
them and they will start all over again. I don't want that to happen to
you, your daughters, or the baby. So it's ok if you're angry at me. Is
it productive? Will it help? I believe so. I could be wrong... but
I'm willing to bet that you're able to handle this right now.... my
opinion, as another single parent.

Bev wrote:
I am not angry Kate , still healing maybe from what you never felt as a friend
I guess or I should say loss of someone important , you were then and will
always mean something important to me because of what you did to help me
through this , I thought you were my friend. Not just someone you picked to let
use you ???? What you say means a lot to me, I know you *know* what is good for
people in my situation and I still take your advice , You make me think ,
respectfully minus the emotional responses sometimes I do respect you. I have
been under a lot of stress with all of this baby stuff going on in our lives ,
I have been trying to do what is right and coming here for advice was/is my
intention in the first place, did I know you were here? , yes , did I reach ?,
yes, do I regret it ? , no. Did I take the hard advice of others in here ? Yes
I did from the start I could see mistakes I was indeed making with my daughter
and my granddaughter, I backed off and let myself be less involved. I did take
what I could use and tried to ignore the rest. That is really hard sometimes
when you feel atttacked. I let it get to me and I am sorry to those I
mistreated because my feelings were hurt. No I am not whining either.
-----------------------------------------
Kate wrote:
you got my
thoughts on what you're family is going through right now. I can't take
past information and ignore it as if I hadn't learned it. I know what
you were up against. Now you're back on your feet and it's up to you
whether to take another look or not.

Bev wrote:
O.K. all good , question? What should I be taking another look at? The past ?
The future?
--------------------------------------------

Kate wrote:
Good. I hope it is. I know you don't get what I said or why... maybe if
you take a step back and see what happened and what will continue to
happen, if not to you then to your granddaughter because she is the one
learning this pattern from all of you, your family will ultimately win.

It seems obvious to me that you can handle this.

Bev wrote:
Yes, I do understand now that I can manage to try and understand. I know about
the dysfunctional patterns that cripple families , generation to generation ,
and I am sure I can,t fix many generations of dysfunction that has plagued my
family, and yes I do look at it everyday as I try to make some kind of a
difference for my kids and grandkids. I had been all my life trying to make it
beter for my kids and I was sucessful most of that time, I have fumbled along
the way, but today is different for us and I guess I was inded looking for that
to be recognised. Be happy Kate, you should know I do mean that
Bev
'Kate

I don't give a rats ass who
understands anymore

Then why do you keep subjecting us to these tirades?

From the very beginning, you claimed to ask for help but if anyone said
anything different from what you already wanted to hear, we were subjected to a
litany of excuses, rationalizations and lamentations. Gues what? You aren't
the only one that has suffered in this world. You only want to hear "Oh, you
poor thing, don't worry, you did the best you could, that's all that counts"
and the only reason you are sticking around is because once in awhile you will
hear that.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

"Joelle" wrote in message
...
I don't give a rats ass who
understands anymore

Then why do you keep subjecting us to these tirades?

Because it is all about 'Bev' she doesn't give a rats ass about anybody
else


From the very beginning, you claimed to ask for help but if anyone said
anything different from what you already wanted to hear, we were subjected
to a
litany of excuses, rationalizations and lamentations. Gues what? You
aren't
the only one that has suffered in this world. You only want to hear "Oh,
you
poor thing, don't worry, you did the best you could, that's all that
counts"
and the only reason you are sticking around is because once in awhile you
will
hear that.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

Subject: In response to Kate
From: oaway (Joelle)
Date: 5/4/2004 12:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

I don't give a rats ass who
understands anymore

Joelle wrote:
Then why do you keep subjecting us to these tirades?

Bev wrote:
I was not tirading, sorry you read it that way. What I mean is If you wanna
have a bad opinion of me anymore I do not care, everyone is entitled to thier
opinion .Does not mean those opinions are true.

Joele wrote:
From the very beginning, you claimed to ask for help but if anyone said
anything different from what you already wanted to hear, we were subjected to
a
litany of excuses, rationalizations and lamentations.

Bev wrote:
Yes I asked for advice, I did not offer excuses I gave reasons as to why .
Maybe I do rationalize things , sometimes I am not sure I am making the right
decisions and think out loud. Good words you use here and I kind of have an
idea what lamentation is but I will only say, if I guess right you would be
speaking of my sorrow and/or grief and regret for what happened?
and yes you are right , I am still grieving the loss and the results of it.

Joele wrote:
Gues what? You aren't
the only one that has suffered in this world. You only want to hear "Oh, you
poor thing, don't worry, you did the best you could, that's all that counts"
and the only reason you are sticking around is because once in awhile you
will
hear that.

Bev wrote:
I know I am not the only person to suffer , why you would want to say I am so
narrow minded and inconsiderate of that?
I did not want what you say, I wanted to be treated with respect and
consideration . I did not deserve the treatment I received, in my opinion.
Bev

The horse is dead, lets stop beating it . I know I want to.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle