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#21
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Sleep and older children
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message . .. Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift, and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more difficult. In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine. So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just to avoid one or two days of adjustment. I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, and so you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school schedule. Bizby |
#22
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Sleep and older children
bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message . .. Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift, and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more difficult. In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine. Mine take a lot longer to adjust. So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just to avoid one or two days of adjustment. Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since they're early risers to begin with. However, I can see DS1 drifting towards later wakings ever so slightly. I don't mind them sleeping in a bit during the summer (heck, I *wish* they'd sleep in a bit!), but I do expect folks up and ready to go at a reasonable hour. Weekends are family time, and I don't really expect to have to give up half of it because someone wants to stay up late and sleep in. For the summer, there are still things to do during the day. If I wait to get out until noon, I'm screwed because then it's naptime! I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however, the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So, we get up and get going and take care of business. and so you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school schedule. To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it, but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie around half the day and stall everyone else's day because they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later, but in our family, there are things to get done and people who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really, although it's not something every family needs to do, I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to get up and get going in the morning. My family would have gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer. Best wishes, Ericka |
#23
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Sleep and older children
"bizby40" wrote in message ... "Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message . .. Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift, and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more difficult. In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine. So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just to avoid one or two days of adjustment. Actually I always needed a few days of major lie-ins at the start of the holidays. Like 12ish. Then on the whole late rising (10ish) on the days I could. I never had a problem with the readjusting, even if I had always risen late during the holidays. If I didn't have the time to do those lie-ins then I would struggle through the next term health wise. Also my term time schedule for rising was 7:30-7:45 Monday to Friday, about 10-12 Saturday depending on how tired I was, then about 8:00 (for tennis) on Sunday. Again, I needed to have that lie in regularly, but when I knew I had to rise, it wasn't a problem. Debbie I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, and so you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school schedule. Bizby |
#24
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Sleep and older children
Sue wrote: For the parents of older children, when did you stop telling your kids when to go to bed and letting them decide when to go to sleep? This can be during the school year and summer please. I can't really remember (this is really straining my memory cells). I know my mom called me in the morning all the way through high school, and in college I had a clock radio and freshman year we had lights out at 10:30. There was a girl in my dorm who didn't want to go to bed at 10:30, so she used to knit argyle socks in the dark until she wanted to go to sleep. I found this unimaginable - even just knitting argyles in the light was more than I would have been able to do. Before I went off to college, and after freshman year IN college, I did read and sometimes I wouldn't turn off the light until pretty late. I still do that. My sister is a night owl, and she has always been hard to get up in the morning. I'm pretty sure that my kids always got themselves up early. I think we are all early bird types. DD#1 would get up to eat breakfast with her dad (dh) when she was in kindergarten and he would leave about 6 or 6:30 IIRC. DD#1 (and also dd#3) needed their sleep, so although they got up early, they took naps right up to first grade, and there was never any problem with them going to bed at a reasonable time. DD#2 would get up early and practice an instrument, and in hs she would ride a motorcycle down to the barn (kids weren't allowed to be out on the road in a car before 6 am but they didn't think of restricting motorcycles) so that she could ride and groom the horse and get back and shower before school. This was totally her own idea. Most of the problems I observe with my grandchildren has to do with their getting their homework done so that they can go to bed at a reasonable hour, because some of them have so many after school activities that they can't do it in the afternoon. I do remember being friends with the wife of a co-worker - actually a student in dh's PG school class who was a lark (early riser) married to a complete night owl. Night owl doesn't do in the Navy. The Navy is for larks. Anyway they had a very active boy and they had to tag team him. He'd stay up until 2 am with his dad, and then his mom would be up at 6 am with him. grandma Rosalie |
#25
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Sleep and older children
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since they're early risers to begin with. ??? Then I'm a bit surprised you weighed in on this issue in the way you have. I have one of each. DS is usually the first one up on the weekends and all summer. DD likes to sleep in, and 10 is common for her, sometimes it's later. Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however, the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So, we get up and get going and take care of business. Well, sure, but getting up because you need to for whatever reason is different than just deciding that everyone needs to be up by X:00 just because. To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it, but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie around half the day and stall everyone else's day because they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later, but in our family, there are things to get done and people who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really, although it's not something every family needs to do, I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to get up and get going in the morning. My family would have gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer. If your only issue is that they need enough sleep to get up and do the things they need to do during the summer, then I have no argument with that. It sounded like you were saying that they needed to get up early all summer long because not doing so would somehow mess them up for the school year, and I don't see that. I did indeed sleep to and past lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer when I was a teen. I was also usually up until past dawn reading, so I had a pretty typical 7-8 hours of sleep daily, it just wasn't normally at night. I was in the top few percent of my high school class, made dean's list in college, and when I landed my first 8-5 job, was in bed by 11:00 every night so I could be up and fresh and ready to work on time. The key to me is to have a sleep schedule that works for you. Bizby |
#26
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Sleep and older children
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
I completely wouldn't worry about the "it's not fair" charge. It's *FINE* for older kids to have more privileges, and it's *FINE* for kids who have earned a privilege with appropriate decision making to have a privilege not granted to kids who have not made good decisions and thus not earned the privilege. Now, it may be more than it's worth to deal with the fuss over the perceived unfairness, but to some extent, I think it's *important* for kids to go through the process of earning privileges along with commensurate responsibilities as they get older and more mature. Oh I understand that and the older ones have gotten privledges, but with this particular issue, I am not going to go there because we already have enough sleep problems with this particular child. Her room is on our level and her sister's rooms are upstairs. If they are up and about, she will never go to sleep and it would be a nightmare. On the other hand, I also wouldn't feel one bit guilty about not allowing things to go haywire in the summer. As you point out, *you* don't get a summer break and still need a decent night's sleep. I also think that it just isn't good for anyone to muck with their sleep schedule too much. As they get older, every day they sleep in until whenever encourages a behavior that becomes harder and harder to break when it comes time to get in the groove when the school year starts. It also starts a pattern of thinking that says I *deserve* to sleep in whenever I don't have to go to school/work/whatever, which leads to a lot of wasted mornings. I think lie-ins should be special occasion sorts of things (late nights too). So, even in summer, and even with older kids, and even if they didn't have any morning obligations, I'm still not on board with unregulated bed times/wake times if the result is that they embark on a relatively consistent pattern of staying up late and sleeping in. If they self-regulate well, and just occasionally stay up late or sleep in, that's no biggie. Thank you Ericka. I feel much better about not letting them stay up to all hours in the summer. For some reason, I was feeling bad about having them in their rooms at 10 pm during the summer, but as long as they are quiet and don't keep hubby and myself awake, I don't mind if they read or listen to music. I work at home, so they don't necessairly have to be up and about at any certain time, but as past summers have been, it seems everything is just so chaotic because we don't have our routines in place. My oldest sometimes says that she can't wait for school to start because then we have a good routine. So that's my clue that I still need to have our routines in place. I was allowed to sleep in until I wanted and so far I have let the girls sleep in until they want. It usually goes that dd1 is up first, then dd2 and finally dd3 gets up much later than everyone else. Again, thanks everyone for your input. I feel much better about this. -- Sue (mom to three girls) |
#27
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Sleep and older children
bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since they're early risers to begin with. ??? Then I'm a bit surprised you weighed in on this issue in the way you have. I have one of each. DS is usually the first one up on the weekends and all summer. DD likes to sleep in, and 10 is common for her, sometimes it's later. I have lived with a number of late risers, and tend that way myself, and occasionally have had issues with the kids if I don't watch their sleep time. Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however, the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So, we get up and get going and take care of business. Well, sure, but getting up because you need to for whatever reason is different than just deciding that everyone needs to be up by X:00 just because. If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a significant part of family life. I think it creates distance in the family. You don't get to do as many things as a family because by the time one member wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am or noon because they're staying up until all hours, I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on a lot of family life that way. To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it, but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie around half the day and stall everyone else's day because they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later, but in our family, there are things to get done and people who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really, although it's not something every family needs to do, I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to get up and get going in the morning. My family would have gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer. If your only issue is that they need enough sleep to get up and do the things they need to do during the summer, then I have no argument with that. It sounded like you were saying that they needed to get up early all summer long because not doing so would somehow mess them up for the school year, and I don't see that. As I said, it's both. *MY* kids don't adjust in a day or two to the school schedule, especially if they have drifted more than an hour or so off schedule. Kids are different in this regard. But the bigger issue in my mind is the lack of family integration when part of the family is AWOL for much of the time. Even if there aren't specific assigned chores or whatever, the kid who's sleeping until noon misses out on impromptu pancakes for breakfast, or messes up a last minute decision to go on a family outing, or isn't around even to hang out and chat with folks. I did indeed sleep to and past lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer when I was a teen. I was also usually up until past dawn reading, so I had a pretty typical 7-8 hours of sleep daily, it just wasn't normally at night. I was in the top few percent of my high school class, made dean's list in college, and when I landed my first 8-5 job, was in bed by 11:00 every night so I could be up and fresh and ready to work on time. The key to me is to have a sleep schedule that works for you. I think it's key to have one that works for the *family* as well. It's not just about the individual. Best wishes, Ericka |
#28
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Sleep and older children
Sue wrote:
Thank you Ericka. I feel much better about not letting them stay up to all hours in the summer. For some reason, I was feeling bad about having them in their rooms at 10 pm during the summer, but as long as they are quiet and don't keep hubby and myself awake, I don't mind if they read or listen to music. I work at home, so they don't necessairly have to be up and about at any certain time, but as past summers have been, it seems everything is just so chaotic because we don't have our routines in place. My oldest sometimes says that she can't wait for school to start because then we have a good routine. So that's my clue that I still need to have our routines in place. I was allowed to sleep in until I wanted and so far I have let the girls sleep in until they want. It usually goes that dd1 is up first, then dd2 and finally dd3 gets up much later than everyone else. Hey, at least you know there's at least one meaner mommy than you out there ;-) My kids' bedtimes are 7:30 (2yo), 8:00 (8yo), and 8:30 (11yo) and they don't change all year! They get up about 7:00am, and despite the early bedtimes I still have to sometimes haul out the 8yo and 11yo for school in the morning, so I have no temptation whatsoever to move their bedtimes later or even suggest they can stay up a while reading or chatting. Clearly, they need the sleep. In the summer or on days when they don't need to get up in the morning, I might allow a special occasion. For instance, they're up late sometimes for concerts or for special dinners with family/friends or during sleepovers or whatever. Like as not, they'll still wake at about the same time the next morning (though the 11yo is starting to sleep in a bit after a late night), so it means a rough day the next day, but sometimes special occasions are worth it. But in the summer, there are lots of times they're going to bed at their regular times with their friends still outside playing and raising a ruckus. And really, they don't even complain because they know as well as I do that the next day is not good when they're out of sorts. Plus, if we're having a morning when there's not a lot to do, they might get pancakes out of the deal or a trip somewhere fun before we have to take care of other business ;-) Best wishes, Ericka |
#29
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Sleep and older children
Ericka Kammerer wrote: If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a significant part of family life. I think it creates distance in the family. You don't get to do as many things as a family because by the time one member wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am or noon because they're staying up until all hours, I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on a lot of family life that way. We're all slow starters on the weekend. We're too go-go-go all week long. I like weekends to be for resting/recharging, and having few commitments. It's true these days, the older I get, the harder it is for me to sleep in all that much. But for example this morning I slept in until 9:30. I'm having my coffee and lounging in bed with my laptop, taking my sweet time waking up. Kids aren't here with us today, but if they were, they'd just be getting up now. None of us are talkative for the first few hours in the morning anyway, so forget quality family time in the morning. Nobody's missing anything around here if they sleep in past noon. That's how I like weekends - we're never out the door before noon. On purpose I do not schedule any activities before noon, having learned the hard way that it sucks to have to be ready and rush out the door on a weekend morning for tennis or swimming or whatever. We all just end up stressed and grumpy. On the weekends we just want a break from all that. We go out as a family when everyone is ready, even if we have to wait around for the laggards, that's okay, because I hate having to crack the whip and keep everyone on schedule on the weekends. This was how it was for me growing up too. My mother was and still is a serious night owl. She never minded us staying up until dawn reading in bed, and then sleeping in well past lunchtime, because she did the same thing herself. In summers we didn't go to camp or anything like that. During school year we also didn't have any extracurricular activities, not like my kids have today, nor did we attend afterschool. Pace was slower and less stressful, and it continues like that when we visit my parents in the summer. jen |
#30
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Sleep and older children
shinypenny wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote: If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a significant part of family life. I think it creates distance in the family. You don't get to do as many things as a family because by the time one member wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am or noon because they're staying up until all hours, I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on a lot of family life that way. We're all slow starters on the weekend. We're too go-go-go all week long. I like weekends to be for resting/recharging, and having few commitments. Like I said, if the whole family can be on that schedule, fine. I'm all for weekends being more restful, but we can't afford to lay about until noon on weekends on any kind of regular basis. Heck, with the toddler's nap, that would mean no going out until late afternoon! ;-) (Obviously, that's a temporary issue, but will affect us probably for two more years, so it isn't really short term either!). Best wishes, Ericka |
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