A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » misc.kids » General
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 20th 03, 01:55 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:05:39 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

That's just one example of spiteful behavior, without even giving it
much thought; I can no doubt come up with additional examples, if you
can't think of any.


If you had bothered to read my question, you'd see that I didn't ask for
examples of spiteful behavior. I asked for the motivation. There's always a
reason, whether it be real or imagined. And even when imagined, it is often
due to some other underlying cause.


You know, this is comparable to the fact that motivation is key to
children's *misbehavior* as well. For some reason a lot of people
don't understand that it is important to really listen and figure out
the reasons for the behavior. Communication is absolutely key
whether it is in adult relationships or in raising children.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #22  
Old November 20th 03, 04:54 PM
Byron Canfield
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

"Kathy Cole" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:05:39 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

If you had bothered to read my question, you'd see that I didn't ask
for examples of spiteful behavior. I asked for the motivation. There's
always a reason, whether it be real or imagined. And even when imagined,
it is often due to some other underlying cause.


The motivation is that the man or woman is still so ****ed off at the
former partner that whatever they do to get back at them is justified in
their eyes.


No, that is not the motivation -- that is the symptom of the cause.

The question remains unanswered.


--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."
-----------------------------
Byron "Barn" Canfield


  #23  
Old November 20th 03, 04:54 PM
Byron Canfield
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:05:39 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

That's just one example of spiteful behavior, without even giving it
much thought; I can no doubt come up with additional examples, if you
can't think of any.


If you had bothered to read my question, you'd see that I didn't ask for
examples of spiteful behavior. I asked for the motivation. There's always

a
reason, whether it be real or imagined. And even when imagined, it is

often
due to some other underlying cause.


You know, this is comparable to the fact that motivation is key to
children's *misbehavior* as well. For some reason a lot of people
don't understand that it is important to really listen and figure out
the reasons for the behavior. Communication is absolutely key
whether it is in adult relationships or in raising children.


Precisely. And as in politics "Follow the money."


--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."
-----------------------------
Byron "Barn" Canfield


  #24  
Old November 20th 03, 10:37 PM
Kathy Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:54:54 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

"Kathy Cole" wrote in message
...
The motivation is that the man or woman is still so ****ed off at
the former partner that whatever they do to get back at them is
justified in their eyes.


No, that is not the motivation -- that is the symptom of the cause.


You want a trigger event that prompted the anger, or a triggering
condition that existed over time? Neither the original trigger nor the
anger at the time of separation could justify spiteful behavior toward
the kids, so I'm having difficulty finding sufficient motivation of my
own to really care what the prompt for the harmful actions was.
  #25  
Old November 21st 03, 12:54 AM
ChrisScaife
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?


"toto" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:05:39 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

If your partner discusses the issues with her friends and
makes her own decisions but won't discuss them with you
because she simply believes that women should be in
charge of the whole child-raising thing then is that your fault
for not communicating ?


Again, that is symptomatic of failure to communicate a lot
earlier in the relationship. Like, did you and she even talk
before you got married? Before you had children?


This is key. I think that if a couple is thinking about marrying
and having children, they need to sit down and talk about this
before entering into the union. But people don't. And it is
difficult to see how we can change this given that most people
who are marrying begin with assumptions about how the
relationship will go that they have acquired along the way from
society.


Many people, (like my ex and I) cohabit for years before getting married. We
were happy together and as we were getting older we decided to get married
and have children before it was too late. We discussed a great many things.
IMHO it only started going wrong because she got severe post natal
depression coupled with the death of both her parents. While I was at work,
she spent a lot of time with a neighbour who was in the process of getting
divorced.

Before Byron asks... After 17 years, the woman was bored with her husband
and having a secret affair. Her husband found out and she did not want to
stop it. Not loving each other anymore is IMHO a good enough reason to go
your own separate ways when no children are involved. Nobody need feel
guilty of anything.

What pains me is the way that this person (who presented herself as a friend
of both of us) gave my wife "moral support" of the wrong kind.
That kind of female solidarity has nothing to do with Feminism by any
definition.
On returning from work each day I found myself in an atmosphere of moody
silence with the occasional muttering and throwing of things and the
exhibited alcohol abuse. Refusing any attempt to talk, she gravitated to
friends who had, or were in the process of divorce. These egged her on,
telling her how all men are *******s and how to get the better of them.

Not only am I still unaware of what her perceived issues were, but also
unable to see what I could have done to prevent it.
I certainly don't see why it should allow her to obstruct my right (oops...
I mean my duty ;-) to spend time with my son.

She sued me for divorced on the grounds of my refusing to accept the blame.
Why should I? So I pleaded guilty. (Irronically accepting the blame for not
accepting the blame)

I did object to being ordered to pay costs on grounds we had both
contributed to the marital breakdown.

The court said my objection had no merrit.
My son said "When can I see dad again?"
I said : "This stinks to high heaven!"

However, Byron has been vindicated by our fair and just, unbiased legal
system in our egalitarian democratic society.
I hope he is happy with this admission of guilt and can drop it now !?

My advice to mums who are happily married: Stay away from the cow shed
unless you want to join the cows.


  #26  
Old November 21st 03, 01:38 AM
dragonlady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

In article ,
"ChrisScaife" wrote:



However, Byron has been vindicated by our fair and just, unbiased legal
system in our egalitarian democratic society.
I hope he is happy with this admission of guilt and can drop it now !?

My advice to mums who are happily married: Stay away from the cow shed
unless you want to join the cows.



I can *almost* understand what happened to your wife. Several years
ago, by sheer coincidence, I was fairly close to 3 women who were in the
process of divorce, all of them with young children. One divorce was
almost amicable, though the husband was a bit of a pill. The other two
were awful divorces from the kind of men who make DH want to resign from
the gender. (In one case, the woman had sensed something was wrong, had
begged her husband to come to marriage counseling, had gone herself when
he refused, he kept insisting it was "all in her head" and that he loved
her and that nothing was wrong -- until the day he left her for the next
door neighbor, with whom he had been having an affair. She found out
later that on several occassions when she was babysitting for this
woman, the woman was off boffing her husband! -- enough scum of both
genders to go around. The other guy was equally scummy -- and also
involved with other women, though my friend didn't know it at the time.
His behavior towards the children was positively despicable.)

I spent time with all three women, doing what I could to support them,
and can begin to understand how someone might start to resent men in
general for the faults of those particular men, particularly since I was
also struggling with depression at the time.

However, *my* response was to go home at night and hug my prince. Often.

meh
definately married to one of the good guys -- and fully aware that there
are lots more out there!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #27  
Old November 21st 03, 04:48 AM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

I sympathize with you Chris. Don't really know what you could have
done differently. I do hope you have contact with your son currently.



On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:54:18 +1300, "ChrisScaife"
wrote:

Many people, (like my ex and I) cohabit for years before getting married. We
were happy together and as we were getting older we decided to get married
and have children before it was too late. We discussed a great many things.
IMHO it only started going wrong because she got severe post natal
depression coupled with the death of both her parents. While I was at work,
she spent a lot of time with a neighbour who was in the process of getting
divorced.

Before Byron asks... After 17 years, the woman was bored with her husband
and having a secret affair. Her husband found out and she did not want to
stop it. Not loving each other anymore is IMHO a good enough reason to go
your own separate ways when no children are involved. Nobody need feel
guilty of anything.

What pains me is the way that this person (who presented herself as a friend
of both of us) gave my wife "moral support" of the wrong kind.
That kind of female solidarity has nothing to do with Feminism by any
definition.
On returning from work each day I found myself in an atmosphere of moody
silence with the occasional muttering and throwing of things and the
exhibited alcohol abuse. Refusing any attempt to talk, she gravitated to
friends who had, or were in the process of divorce. These egged her on,
telling her how all men are *******s and how to get the better of them.

Not only am I still unaware of what her perceived issues were, but also
unable to see what I could have done to prevent it.
I certainly don't see why it should allow her to obstruct my right (oops...
I mean my duty ;-) to spend time with my son.

She sued me for divorced on the grounds of my refusing to accept the blame.
Why should I? So I pleaded guilty. (Irronically accepting the blame for not
accepting the blame)

I did object to being ordered to pay costs on grounds we had both
contributed to the marital breakdown.

The court said my objection had no merrit.
My son said "When can I see dad again?"
I said : "This stinks to high heaven!"

However, Byron has been vindicated by our fair and just, unbiased legal
system in our egalitarian democratic society.
I hope he is happy with this admission of guilt and can drop it now !?

My advice to mums who are happily married: Stay away from the cow shed
unless you want to join the cows.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #28  
Old November 21st 03, 05:33 AM
ChrisScaife
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?


.....
However, *my* response was to go home at night and hug my prince. Often.


I greatly admire your strength of character to not be swayed by all the
negative input you must have had.
Especially while suffering from depression!
I am glad you are still happily married.
I am sure that working your way through hard times together will have
strengthened your bond for the benefit of you and your children.
May you be an icon to other mums who are going thru the same thing and I
hope you will be able to find the time to give them positive moral support
and guidance and dissuade the others from transposing their problems onto
the ones who are vulnerable.

I too tried to get my wife to come to marriage guidance, but I was the
enemy.
The harder I tried, whatever it was, the more she would resist.
Eventually I stopped loving her and looked forward to the day the decree
absolute would come through.

Sadly our little boy was the real casualty.


  #29  
Old November 21st 03, 05:45 AM
Byron Canfield
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

"Kathy Cole" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:54:54 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

"Kathy Cole" wrote in message
...
The motivation is that the man or woman is still so ****ed off at
the former partner that whatever they do to get back at them is
justified in their eyes.


No, that is not the motivation -- that is the symptom of the cause.


You want a trigger event that prompted the anger, or a triggering
condition that existed over time? Neither the original trigger nor the
anger at the time of separation could justify spiteful behavior toward
the kids, so I'm having difficulty finding sufficient motivation of my
own to really care what the prompt for the harmful actions was.


What he was claiming was that there was spiteful actions not toward the
kids, but toward the father.


--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."
-----------------------------
Byron "Barn" Canfield


  #30  
Old November 21st 03, 12:39 PM
Kathy Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default should mum be allowed to deny dad contact ?

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 04:45:40 GMT, "Byron Canfield"
wrote:

"Kathy Cole" wrote in message
...
You want a trigger event that prompted the anger, or a triggering
condition that existed over time? Neither the original trigger nor the
anger at the time of separation could justify spiteful behavior toward
the kids, so I'm having difficulty finding sufficient motivation of my
own to really care what the prompt for the harmful actions was.


What he was claiming was that there was spiteful actions not toward the
kids, but toward the father.


It's all in how you orient your outlook. You can certainly manage a
post-divorce situation in which you share access to the kids without
much contact with the former partner; what is largely parallel
parenting, rather than co-parenting. If that's the case, there's not
much direct, spiteful action you have an opportunity to perform, that
isn't also likely to get you into legal trouble; most spiteful actions
need to be channeled through the kids to get a dig in at the other
parent.

But I don't see myself as owing my ex much. I owe *our son* an awful
lot, starting with respecting and supporting the role of his father,
stepmother and extended family in his life, and encouraging strong
relationships with them. That viewpoint requires me to keep our son out
of our disagreements, so that when his dad really ****es me off, it's
proven relatively easy for me to keep him away from it.

So, from my perspective, absent any direct, spiteful crap like trying to
get an ex fired, calling the new girlfriend and telling her my opinion
of him and his prior behavior, causing him financial trouble by falsely
reporting his car stolen so the police will hassle him, or other
extremely direct and clearly ex-focussed actions, any spiteful stuff
would have to use the kid, which is harmful to the kid and thus
completely unacceptable.

A parent who correctly concludes that the real goal in digging at the
kid is to dig at the other parent might label the activity accordingly,
and that may have been the case with the prior poster.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.