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#11
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3-year old sibling rivalry
H Schinske wrote:
wrote: Yeah, my husband and I both agree that we need a wife. Don't know how we're going to *****swing***** that, though Bah-doom-SHHH! You walked into that one! No kidding...can I plead working on several sleepless nights due to illness? Pleeeeeeze? ;-) Take care, Ericka |
#12
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3-year old sibling rivalry
Dave wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... 1) Is Erika getting attention (even if it's negative attention) for hitting the baby? Yes, I suppose she does get some attention. I tried my luck at just picking up the baby and leaving the room, telling Erika that "Daddy doesn't want to play with girls that hit" which she definitely did not like, to the point of begging "Daddy stay. I won't hit anymore"... she KNOWS it's wrong. Yet she does it anyway. She definitely doesn't get MUCH attention at this point; after so much repetition one would think the pain of punishment outweighs whatever crumb of pleasure she receives by way of attention. I don't think she's getting any pleasure at all from hitting Lindsay. It may be even a little scary and conflicting for her, which is another reason to make sure that there's no opportunity for it to happen. I probably wouldn't say *anything* to Erika. She knows it's wrong. I'd just pick up the baby and leave, cooing over the baby and lavishing her with concern and attention without a single backwards glance at Erika. I think that's a good point you make... we keep giving Erika the benefit of the doubt, assuming she'll grow out of this hitting phase and not wanting to make her feel too bad... also it seems the more of an issue we make of it the more she does it for the attention. Punishing her as I said seems to only make the problem worse. Maybe it's time to physically restrain her. It's tough though to keep her away from the baby at all times, and it makes us even more worried that Erika will start to think it's some sort of game and will try even harder. It is very difficult to keep her away from the baby-- I certainly understand that! Hopefully you won't have to do it for long. You can do things like: 1) Keep the baby in arms. 2) Put the baby down to play in a playpen/portacrib/etc. that Erika can't get into (at least not without giving you time to intercept). 3) Don't allow Erika into the room where the baby is playing if you can't provide any other security. When Erika complains about the restrictions, just explain that you absolutely have to keep Lindsay safe, and this is the only way you know how, so you're very sorry Erika can't do X right now--maybe later when you know that Lindsay won't get hurt. You have to couple this with still finding time for Erika to have good one-on-one time with you (i.e., the baby can't be freezing her out of her parents' lives, even though it will certainly have an impact on your availability). After a little while, you also have to start allowing some opportunities for success. Give Erika some very brief, very highly supervised opportunities to interact nicely with Lindsay. If she does well, praise the heck out of her. You *MUST* make sure she is successful, and you must keep it short (don't fall into the trap of thinking that she's done well for five minutes, maybe she's turned over a new leaf, maybe we'll go a bit longer). Then, very gradually, build on your successes. Every day you go without her going after the baby is a step towards success. When she hasn't hit the baby in a few weeks, the problem will likely be gone--but if there's a single time she manages to get a hit/bite/kick/whatever in there, you're back to square one. We need to teach Erika (somehow, some way) a constructive, or at least non-destructive, way to vent her frustrations. Funny thing is, I think she LIKES Lindsay. Last night at the swimming pool she asked me if perhaps next time we come we could bring Lindsay. And she will sometimes spontaneously bring a favorite toy over and let Lindsay play with it without being asked. Sure, she probably *does* like Lindsay very much. This isn't about liking or disliking Lindsay. In all likelihood, if there's anyone she has problems with, it's you or her mother-- but she knows better than to take it out on you directly ;-) And yes, you do need to teach her how to deal with her frustrations more constructively. Give her specific suggestions and role play them--frequently. Ask her to collaborate with you in coming up with alternatives. That often helps. Best wishes, Ericka |
#13
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3-year old sibling rivalry
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:24:53 +0200, LisaBell
wrote: Acknowledge that she feels angry about the baby and maybe even wishes the baby to go away Good book if you can find it - Nobody Asked Me if I Wanted a Baby Sister by Martha Alexander. The older brother Oliver tries to give the baby away to several people in the neighborhood. There is a sequel called: I'll Be the Horse If You'll Play With Me that I haven't read, but it might be good as well. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#14
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3-year old sibling rivalry
David Spear wrote:
When the baby came home, though, things did not, and have not, gone smoothly at all... Erika hits Lindsay (the baby) at any opportunity. Or kicks. Or bites. At first we thought that it was a normal jealous reaction to a new baby, and we were prepared to wait it out. Two suggestions. With our first one we convinced her that we were having the baby with the express purpose of adoring her. It's hard to hate someone who absolute adores you. Talk up how much the baby loves her big sister. Convince the big sister that the baby is there to be her audience/lady-in-waiting. The next suggestion is to point out to Erika that you gave HER exactly the same treatment when Erika was a baby. In fact, when cuddling Lindsey you might point out that it reminds you of how much you loved cuddling Erika at that age. Then go right into the schtick about how wonderful it is that she's such a big girl who can do such delightful things now like (list them out: ride a trike, color with markers, go to the potty, whatever.) The goal here is to show that your parenting of Lindsey is no different than your parenting of Erika except that the girls need different things from you at the moment (and will continue to have different needs for some time.) We have tried time outs and other non-violent punishments such as keeping her from going to the park, to swimming, etc. to no avail... she just takes whatever we dish out with no change in behaviour whatsoever. I've got a sticky situation with my second/third child like this. I'm on the verge of seeking family counseling over a dynamic that we just can't seem to shake. The 10 year old can't walk within arm's length of the four year old without nudging him in some way - it's like his hands compulsively reach out to tweak his brother. The little one yelps, I yell at the big one to get away from his brother and the older brother feels persecuted because I'm always yelling at him. We've sat down and talked about this over and over again - the theme being that nudging his brother has NOT worked out well for him - he doesn't get anything useful out of it, just misery and more misery so why do it? OTOH, I can't seem to stay out of it and let them nudge each other. (I've seen the little one walk by and outright PUNCH his brother... now wherever did he get THAT idea?) The little one is four now and the odds are evening up a bit from when they were seven and one. I think the answer might be in ME butting out since I can't seem to stop either of them. I keep thinking there are some behavioral payoffs in their fighting that I just can't spot. It makes no sense to me for the 10 year old to misbehave 40 times a day. He has also taken to blatent lying and seems to wallow happily in his misery about being mistrusted as well as his feelings of being persecuted by my constant pressure on him to not hit his brother. I don't know how to escape this dynamic, so maybe I'm telling you my advice is worthless. Or maybe I'm telling you that you should just seek outside help before they get much older! Wendy, thinking about how LONG this week-end has been! |
#15
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3-year old sibling rivalry
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:30:39 GMT, "David Spear"
wrote: My wife and I had our second child, a girl, in May this past spring. We have another daughter almost exactly 3 years older than the baby. Erika (the older one) was all excited about the coming of the baby, we got books out of the library about pregnancy, changes that would occur when the new baby came home, etc. When the baby came home, though, things did not, and have not, gone smoothly at all... Erika hits Lindsay (the baby) at any opportunity. Or kicks. Or bites. At first we thought that it was a normal jealous reaction to a new baby, and we were prepared to wait it out. We made sure to give Erika TONS of attention, even buying her a few special toys to offset all the baby gifts from our friends and relatives. In fact I daresay she has probably gotten at least as much attention over the past six months as the baby has! However, the behavior has not changed. Erika will come into a room, see Lindsay doing something, and will immediately either take away whatever toy Lindsay is playing with (or all of her toys) or, if she is not playing with a toy, will go over and SMACK her or push her over or do some other mean thing until Lindsay cries. We have tried time outs and other non-violent punishments such as keeping her from going to the park, to swimming, etc. to no avail... she just takes whatever we dish out with no change in behaviour whatsoever. If I see her about to hit Lindsay and say "Don't do that or you can't go to Grandma's tomorrow" she will look me in the eye and continue to hit Lindsay anyway. We do not dare leave the two of them together unattended for fear the baby will be hurt. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it normal? How long will it go on? As an aside, Erika is GREAT with other babies, plays with them, shares with them without being asked, is very gentle, it's just her baby sister she has it out for. When i'ts one-on-one with Mom or Dad (no baby) Erika is sweet as can be. Any replies greatly appreciated. Do watch her closely and do not leave her alone with the baby. Prevent her from hitting her sister by being close by and stopping her physically from doing so. Say *we don't hit people.* Do shadow her. Stay right with her and stop the hitting by holding her hands and not letting her do it. The same goes for the biting. etc. If you must hold her and keep her still, do so. Don't allow her to get away with hurting her sister. But do stay calm when you are holding her. She can scream, but *you* have to stay calm and let her know she can stop being held as long as she doesn't hurt the baby (or you). Gently pull her away and tell her that what she did isn't okay. You may need to take her away from her sister for a few minutes to cool down. Make sure she had toys of her own she doesn't have to share. She can keep these in her room. Pretend games, such as playing house, help teach preschoolers to work cooperatively. Because these games emphasize role-playing, they also teach your preschooler to express his feelings with words. If she gets angry during the game, prompt her to talk about her feelings by asking, "You're the mommy in this house. What does a mommy say when she feels angry?" If she's had a good example to follow, she'll handle it just like his own mommy does: by saying she's angry and explaining why. Play cooperative games with the two children. Give and take is a good one for this age as is peekaboo. Your older child can make her sister smile if she plays peekaboo with her. Emphasize that your older child is the *big girl* who can help you with lots of things and who can go places the baby can't go. Show her that she has the advantage. She can do so much more. Involve her in helping with the baby. Have her get the diaper when you are going to change the baby. When she does play with the baby without hitting, make sure you acknowledge that. *I see that you took turns with your sister just then. I like that.* Be consistent. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#16
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3-year old sibling rivalry
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:27:11 GMT, "Dave"
wrote: "Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... 1) Is Erika getting attention (even if it's negative attention) for hitting the baby? Yes, I suppose she does get some attention. I tried my luck at just picking up the baby and leaving the room, telling Erika that "Daddy doesn't want to play with girls that hit" which she definitely did not like, to the point of begging "Daddy stay. I won't hit anymore"... she KNOWS it's wrong. Yet she does it anyway. She definitely doesn't get MUCH attention at this point; after so much repetition one would think the pain of punishment outweighs whatever crumb of pleasure she receives by way of attention. The problem is that *you* cannot judge the attention she is receiving from her pov. Punishment almost never works anyway. It simply teaches children to be sneaky (unless it is harsh enough to squash their spirit entirely and even then for some kids, that makes them more rebellious). Follow through with leaving the room. This will get through. And do this *every time she hits or bites.* Don't give in to her pleading with you to stay, but do give her another chance after a short time out of the room with baby. And do play with the baby when you are out of the room with her. 2) I think you absolutely have to prevent her from hitting the baby. This isn't something you can allow to happen and then try to address it with punishment after it happens. You must do whatever it takes to make sure she doesn't have the chance to hurt the baby--not just because you don't want the baby hurt, but because hitting the baby is becoming a *habit* and it could more easily escalate. Erika needs to see that you just *will* not allow her to harm the baby. Period. No matter what she does or how hard she tries, the baby will be protected, just as you would protect Erika from anyone who would harm her. I think that's a good point you make... we keep giving Erika the benefit of the doubt, assuming she'll grow out of this hitting phase and not wanting to make her feel too bad... also it seems the more of an issue we make of it the more she does it for the attention. Punishing her as I said seems to only make the problem worse. Maybe it's time to physically restrain her. It's tough though to keep her away from the baby at all times, and it makes us even more worried that Erika will start to think it's some sort of game and will try even harder. Hadn't really thought about what poor Lindsay thinks of all the whacks on the head she gets... she is a very big strong baby, could sit up at 5 months and already weighs more at 6 months than Erika did at a year so we are not too worried about physical harm... we tend to sit her in the middle of the livingroom rug to play so worst case scenario she gets toppled over onto the carpet. We need to teach Erika (somehow, some way) a constructive, or at least non-destructive, way to vent her frustrations. Teach her to use words. You may want to read Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish's book Siblings without Rivalry. Another good one by the same authors is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. Funny thing is, I think she LIKES Lindsay. Last night at the swimming pool she asked me if perhaps next time we come we could bring Lindsay. And she will sometimes spontaneously bring a favorite toy over and let Lindsay play with it without being asked. When she does this, this is the time to give her positive attention. thanks for your insight. Dave -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#17
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3-year old sibling rivalry
"David Spear" wrote in message news:3B7ub.15996$1K.1604@edtnps84... My wife and I had our second child, a girl, in May this past spring. We have another daughter almost exactly 3 years older than the baby. Erika (the older one) was all excited about the coming of the baby, we got books out of the library about pregnancy, changes that would occur when the new baby came home, etc. When the baby came home, though, things did not, and have not, gone smoothly at all... Erika hits Lindsay (the baby) at any opportunity. Or kicks. Or bites. At first we thought that it was a normal jealous reaction to a new baby, and we were prepared to wait it out. We made sure to give Erika TONS of attention, even buying her a few special toys to offset all the baby gifts from our friends and relatives. In fact I daresay she has probably gotten at least as much attention over the past six months as the baby has! However, the behavior has not changed. Erika will come into a room, see Lindsay doing something, and will immediately either take away whatever toy Lindsay is playing with (or all of her toys) or, if she is not playing with a toy, will go over and SMACK her or push her over or do some other mean thing until Lindsay cries. We have tried time outs and other non-violent punishments such as keeping her from going to the park, to swimming, etc. to no avail... she just takes whatever we dish out with no change in behaviour whatsoever. If I see her about to hit Lindsay and say "Don't do that or you can't go to Grandma's tomorrow" she will look me in the eye and continue to hit Lindsay anyway. We do not dare leave the two of them together unattended for fear the baby will be hurt. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it normal? How long will it go on? As an aside, Erika is GREAT with other babies, plays with them, shares with them without being asked, is very gentle, it's just her baby sister she has it out for. When i'ts one-on-one with Mom or Dad (no baby) Erika is sweet as can be. Any replies greatly appreciated. You've gotten a lot of great advice... here's something else to consider: 1. Examine your own language. How do you talk to her about hitting? Do you say "Don't hit!"? If so, it's time to work very hard on changing your language. Say things positively. So, instead of "Don't hit"... "Be gentle!" 2. Echoing others... be consistent. The single *worst* thing you can do is keep changing what you do every single time. Erika is very, very confused right now, because she never, ever knows what is going to happen when she hits. I think you nailed it when you walked out of the room with the baby... it is the single most powerful thing you can do, far more effective than any punishment, to simply demonstrate, "I deserve to be safe. The baby deserves to be safe. We will go someplace safe." What she's got right now is a "random reward" system. She needs to know that if she even tries to hit, she will suddenly have *no* attention. Yeah, she'll beg and plead. But if you do it every time, consistently, then she will learn very quickly what the consequences will be. Ignore her begging. The smoother you can make this, the better. How I would do this... a) I would sit down with Erika when she's not hitting the baby, when she's doing okay. I would say, "I really appreciate that you're being gentle right now. When you're gentle like this, we can all be together in the same space." b) The next time she attacked the baby, I would pick the baby up and leave the room. Just that fast. I would go do something with the baby, preferably putting baby up in a baby carrier (I would NOT fuss over the baby...this is so not about the baby and you don't want to set your younger kid up with a complex, either!) or down someplace safe. I would wait a couple minutes, not talking or interacting with Erika in any way (3 minutes is about tops at that age) and then go back to where she was and ask, "Are you ready to be gentle now?" This is a far more effective form of time out than the traditional way. Why? Because getting a 3-year-old to stay in time out takes a whole lot of interaction. But keeping that kid out of where you are is much easier. I used a locked bathroom, locking myself in. And no, having her "out there" unsupervised wasn't an issue. Why? Because she spent the whole time beating on the bathroom door. I knew exactly where she was... c) When she calmed down, I would say, "We need to talk about how to be gentle and what is safe to do when you are angry." I would go over with her what is okay with the baby. I would talk about how being angry is okay, but hitting people isn't. I would give her a durable, soft doll and say, "When you feel like hitting someone, hit this." I would also say, "Why did you hit the baby?" If she can give you an answer, you can give her a better way to get what she's wanting. Give her a specific thing to do when she's feeling "that way"... we described this sort of thing just like 9-1-1... how do you hand an emotional emergency.... If she's old enough to learn "stop-drop-and-roll then she's old enough to learn, "When you want Mommy's attention, do X, Y and Z" And I would keep doing those three steps consistently. It doens't take long, usually. I do think you need to get more sensitive to your younger baby in this... just because she's big doesn't mean she's that big. If her sister is making her cry, she's telling you she doesn't like it. There is no excuse for allowing a 6 month old to be deliberately and unnecessarily hurt by another human being in my book. You're there to protect the baby. I have friends who are still dealing with emotional scars from abusive older siblings, and the biggest scar of all is not the abuse, but that Mom and Dad let it happen. If you have to keep your body between them continuously to prevent that harm from coming to her, well, that's what you need to do. At 6 months she's most likely not crawling or not crawling well, and she really can't do ANYTHING to protect herself. Jenrose |
#18
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3-year old sibling rivalry
"Wendy" wrote in message Two suggestions. With our first one we convinced her that we were having the baby with the express purpose of adoring her. It's hard to hate someone who absolute adores you. Talk up how much the baby loves her big sister. Convince the big sister that the baby is there to be her audience/lady-in-waiting. Yup, we do this. Prior to Lindsay coming home we got books and videos out of the library with titles like "My New Baby Sister" and such, many of which were very good at preparing the older sibling for the shock of getting less attention, etc. Erika was EXTREMELY excited about Lindsay coming home, it was quite funny that when my wife was pregnant Erika would go around telling people that SHE had a baby in HER tummy too. The next suggestion is to point out to Erika that you gave HER exactly the same treatment when Erika was a baby. In fact, when cuddling Lindsey you might point out that it reminds you of how much you loved cuddling Erika at that age. Then go right into the schtick about how wonderful it is that she's such a big girl who can do such delightful things now like (list them out: ride a trike, color with markers, go to the potty, whatever.) The goal here is to show that your parenting of Lindsey is no different than your parenting of Erika except that the girls need different things from you at the moment (and will continue to have different needs for some time.) Yes we have gone this route as well, my wife is just incredibly patient and positive with Erika. It is now part of Erika's standard vocabulary to blurt out phrases like "Lindsay can't do "X" because she's a baby, but Erika can because she's a BIG girl." We have tried time outs and other non-violent punishments such as keeping her from going to the park, to swimming, etc. to no avail... she just takes whatever we dish out with no change in behaviour whatsoever. I've got a sticky situation with my second/third child like this. I'm on the verge of seeking family counseling over a dynamic that we just can't seem to shake. The 10 year old can't walk within arm's length of the four year old without nudging him in some way - it's like his hands compulsively reach out to tweak his brother. The little one yelps, I yell at the big one to get away from his brother and the older brother feels persecuted because I'm always yelling at him. We've sat down and talked about this over and over again - the theme being that nudging his brother has NOT worked out well for him - he doesn't get anything useful out of it, just misery and more misery so why do it? OTOH, I can't seem to stay out of it and let them nudge each other. (I've seen the little one walk by and outright PUNCH his brother... now wherever did he get THAT idea?) The little one is four now and the odds are evening up a bit from when they were seven and one. I think the answer might be in ME butting out since I can't seem to stop either of them. Yeah I have found it very very difficult not to get angry with Erika for hitting Lindsay, it's just so hard to watch no matter what the motivation. I tell myself over and over and over again "she's only 3, she's only 3, she's only 3". It is my impression that Erika hits Lindsay only when someone is watching, it's not that she wants to hit for any particular dislike of Lindsay, it's 100% attention. We tried making a big deal of zero tolerance: you hit your sister, you go to your room and BOY, did that backfire. Instant attention every time! The bigger deal we made of it the more Erika misbehaved so, I think you're on the right track with butting out. If you're not worried about physical harm maybe a couple of weeks of ignoring the behavior would help, as it seems everything that kids do is designed (by them) to get attention, good or bad. They learn early on to be master button-pushers. I will qualify all of the above as you did and say that obviously I haven't figured out the right thing to do but hopefully our mutual partially-successful blunderings will help each other out. I keep thinking there are some behavioral payoffs in their fighting that I just can't spot. It makes no sense to me for the 10 year old to misbehave 40 times a day. He has also taken to blatent lying and seems to wallow happily in his misery about being mistrusted as well as his feelings of being persecuted by my constant pressure on him to not hit his brother. A lot of kids (I am feeling old so am tempted to add the phrase "these days" but I'm sure things haven't changed since I was a kid) just don't respond to punishment well, they just don't get the whole "consequences" game. My wife's brother was a "problem child" when he was younger and the parents tried gradually increasing punishments: you can't watch your favorite TV show, you can't go out after school with your friends, you have to stay in your room, etc. The kid just withdrew into himself, got quieter and quieter but never modified the bad behavior that started the whole process in the beginning. The whole situation just made everyone feel bad. Positive reinforcement is key, it just seems really hard at times to do it because adults ARE so consequences-oriented. I often wonder "what the heck is that kid thinking? How can she not figure out behavior X = consequence Y?" Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and good luck with the hitting issue. Dave |
#19
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3-year old sibling rivalry
Dave wrote:
Positive reinforcement is key, it just seems really hard at times to do it because adults ARE so consequences-oriented. I often wonder "what the heck is that kid thinking? How can she not figure out behavior X = consequence Y?" I would not ignore it for this age group. I think for 2-5yo you have to be very creative to make sure the consequence is *directly and instantly* related to the behavior. I think that is why holding my sons hands worked so well. We intercepted him the instant he reached out to hit (before he actually even hit) and held his hands. It was his hands that were causing the problems and it was his hands that were being quieted. That is for the specifics of her hitting the baby. We used similar techniches for kicking (although it took a bit longer). For the bigger picture take a step back to see if she has un-met needs. Physical play, time with dad, some change to our disasterous evening routine, and a couple others stood out to us but only when we really took a step away and looked at the *whole* picture. Look for ways to teach her to become a 'team' or 'family' in addition to baby versus big girl. Good luck. This has been a good thread. -- Nikki Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2) |
#20
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3-year old sibling rivalry
In y8cub.7501$iS6.1427@fed1read04,
Circe wrote: *Well, I *have* a wife. Actually, I have a *new* wife--my former wife (aka au *pair) left for New York this morning, whence she'll fly back home to South *Africa. My new wife, Judy, started work last week with Ninian showing her *the ropes. (That was sort of interesting, since Judy's English is a bit *weak--she speaks mainly Spanish--and Ninian has no Spanish at all, but it *turned out fine.) Anyway, I don't know what I'd do without my serial wives *g! Hee hee. I never thought of the girls in quite those terms before! I'm curious, did you know about Judy's language difficulties before she showed up?? Or had she "hidden" them from you? I'm just wondering because I know that has been one of my biggest issues with having an au pair - ensuring that she speaks excellent English, because I just personally couldn't deal with someone who didn't. I've managed by making sure to choose people from countries which educate their citizens in English. Back when we were still interviewing people from other countries like Czech Republic or whatever, these girls would pretend to speak English but you'd catch them by asking detailed questions that their canned answers didn't make sense for... it was very annoying. Good luck with Judy and the transition, though , and here's hoping Ninian has a safe trip. -- hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large |
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