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New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 24th 04, 05:12 PM
Iowacookiemom
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

At the risk of continuing what may well be a two-person discussion at this
point, I do think there are lessons to be learned for other parents in the
experiences I recount below.

David wrote:
Dawm writes:
It's not hard for me to imagine how low-income, less-educated parents
might not have been able to find the right answers. I lay the
responsibility for that with the schools, not the parents. IMNSH (and
certainly not unbiased) O, Henry is bright enough that someone, in 5
years of public schooling, should have recognized that he was not
reading well.


I don't doubt that, but it's hard for me to believe that the school
didn't notice. Do you mean that, in his report cards, and
parent-teacher conferences, the school claimed that he could read, when
he actually couldn't?


Basically, yes. He could read a little bit and is so bright in other ways that
he had little tricks to fake his way through. He is very charming, very
personable, and used those skills plus his intelligence to get around the
reading thing. His grades (not letter grades at that point) were all in the
satisfactory range -- he was getting by and he was not a discipline problem.

In his first school, and inner-city school in a high-poverty area, he was in
the lower part of the upper half of his classmates, in other words slightly
above average. I think they had so much else going on that a kid who is making
it work at grade level schoolwork was just not a priority.

In his second school, in an affluent section of town, he was below average but
not so far below that he required intervention. I think, sadly, that race may
have come in to play in that case. He is black and was doing better than most
of the other black kids (only a handful) in that school. So I'm sure they saw
him as a success.

No one other than us seemed to think it was weird that he was so clearly among
the brightest kids when it came to classroom discussions, cognitive thinking
during class group work, and on-the-spot thinking during, say, math
instruciton... but when he had to put pencil to paper or work independently his
performance took a severe turn south. Even Henry would articulate it: "I feel
like I'm as smart as my friends, but they do so much better than me in school."

And certainly, the parents should realize that their child can't read,
whether or not the school does.


This assumes the parents can read. At Henry's first school that was not true
for a significant number (the school felt it might be as high as 25%) of
parents.

It seems that you did realize that your
son was struggling to read, so the "recognizing" wasn't a problem in
your case.


We recognized it much earlier than we were able to convince the school of the
problem. Truthfully I'm not sure they ever acknowledged it. I think some of
them still view us as over-achiever yuppie parents who couldn't handle having
an average kid. It was never about that. It was about Henry's increasing lack
of overall confidence as he faced this incongruous situation.

Thinking back, I think this may have been largely a side effect of the reliance
on standardized tests. On the tests Henry would do just well enough to be
technically performing at grade level. If I had to guess I would say he
probably cheated on some of the tests, although I'm sure he didn't see it that
way (he was too young to do so with any other intent other than a desire to fit
in and please the adults in his life). I think our schools are currently
rewarded for keeping kids above a specific, arbitrary bar rather than helping
each kid reach maximum potential, whether that be above or below that bar.

As you say, it can happen that some parents may realize the problem, but
not do anything effective about it. I *understand* how that can happen.
But I still think that they are failing in one of their basic
responsibilities as parents.


I guess what I'm saying is that I think most parents do the best they can with
the resources they have available to them. And if they themselves didn't have
a good education, then they are ill-equipped in many ways to assist their own
child's education in the same way you and I can.

I think that as long as the educational system relies on parents as first
responders rather than as allies, we will continue to have a two-tiered system.

I also understand, very well, how the schools can be unable to fix the
problem for every child.


We agree there. But I do think the reliance on test scores and underfunding
are the problems -- I understand and don't necessarily blame schools as much as
I blame society/government.

I think that parents may rely on the schools for what schools
do---schools are an important resource for parents---but that doesn't
relieve the parents of the primary responsibility to ensure that their
children learn, and to intervene if it's not happening. IMHO, this is
just part (a big part) of the responsibility that people assume when
they decide to become parents.


Unfortunately not everyone makes that decision as intentionally as you and I
did. Again, that is true IMO due to a myriad of social and political
realities. But that's a discussion for another time ;-)

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 11

  #22  
Old January 25th 04, 09:55 PM
chiam margalit
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

Sandi Jones wrote in message ...
Schools have changed. Kindergarten was OPTIONAL in most states when I
was a kid. Now it is required in most states, and the focus is now
academic, not social. Study after study has found that 5 year old little
boys are not ready to sit down, shut up, and keep both feet flat on the
floor. With the change of focus of kindergarten, more little boys are
being prescribed Ritalin and other drugs in order to enable them to cope
with an academic environment that they are not developmentally ready to
handle. My oldest son, now 18 went through a full day program. His 5
year old little brother would NOT be able to deal with a full day of
school. (He's a YOUNG 5, having an August birthday, he is in the high
risk group, males born late July- early Sept sent to school at 5)


The HIGH RISK Group? Where did that phrase come from? High risk of
what? Learning their ABCs too soon? Learning how to make a
relationship between the written and oral language?

My son, who has a very late August birthday, started full day
kindergarten at age 5 years and 6 days. He was, as you claimed, a
YOUNG 5. Not only was he completely and totally kindergarten ready, he
was well beyond ready in that he was already reading and doing simple
mathematics on his own. He was socially adept after having 3 years of
full day preschool under his belt. Kindergartens test children where
we lived, and he applied to 3 different schools, all of which tested
him definately kindergarten ready.

Now, he's 11.5 years old and going to enter high school in the
upcoming school year. He's 3 years younger than most of his
classmates, and yet he's got plenty of friends, more than enough
actually. He's able to complete his schoolwork in a manner than
pleases everyone, he's able to keep up socially and is in fact a real
leader.

Being a YOUNG 5 evidentally wasn't a crisis situation for him, nor was
he ever at HIGH RISK. In fact, he and most of the other boys I know
were able to handle kindergarten just fine at 5. This tendency to
redshirt boys is, IMO, silly UNLESS your child really isn't ready. But
when my son was in kindergarten the boys ranged in age from DS as the
youngest, to another boy who was 7, a hulk, and a bully. THAT kid
caused more problems and had more issues than any of the "young 5's"
in class.

Marjorie

  #23  
Old January 25th 04, 09:56 PM
chiam margalit
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

(Iowacookiemom) wrote in message ...
If someone's child is really not learning to read, the parent has to be
doing something very wrong, regardless of what's happening or not
happening in school.


Oh, my. You're a person who backs up your statements with research, David.
Surely you don't mean that the way it came out.

If a child is not learning to read, any number of things may be going wrong,
independent of parental effort and initiative. Our son is an only child of two
highly educated parents who read to him daily from infancy and did everything
everyone tells you to do, and he still struggled to learn to read and it really
didn't click until this year (5th grade). It's taken a considerable amount of
effort, tutoring and diagnostics to get him on track (he now gets A's in
reading, it is his best subject).


As the parent of 11.5 YO twins who got literally the same upbringing,
where one was reading at 3.5 and the other one STILL has reading
difficulties, I can hardly see that it has anything to do with me, a
chronic reader for whom voracious doesn't even come close to
describing my reading habits. Reading problems come from many
different issues, including learning disabilities that are above and
beyond any parents skill set, even if that parent is a certified
teacher (like me) and knows plenty about teaching reading. DD is never
going to be a fluent reader. She has way too many physical (eye
problem) and neurological issues working against her. I could do
EVERYTHING in the world to encourage her to read, but the fact is,
reading is *physically painful* for her, and she's never going to do
it volunrarily.

Surely you don't think this is my fault, do you?

Marjorie


-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 11, who struggled with reading for years but who will not accept
that it had anything to do with her parenting skills.


  #24  
Old January 26th 04, 06:31 PM
Robyn Kozierok
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

In article ,
chiam margalit wrote:
Sandi Jones wrote in message
. ..
Schools have changed. Kindergarten was OPTIONAL in most states when I
was a kid. Now it is required in most states, and the focus is now
academic, not social. Study after study has found that 5 year old little
boys are not ready to sit down, shut up, and keep both feet flat on the
floor. With the change of focus of kindergarten, more little boys are
being prescribed Ritalin and other drugs in order to enable them to cope
with an academic environment that they are not developmentally ready to
handle. My oldest son, now 18 went through a full day program. His 5
year old little brother would NOT be able to deal with a full day of
school. (He's a YOUNG 5, having an August birthday, he is in the high
risk group, males born late July- early Sept sent to school at 5)


The HIGH RISK Group? Where did that phrase come from? High risk of
what? Learning their ABCs too soon? Learning how to make a
relationship between the written and oral language?


Many sources consider "young for grade" boys to be at risk for poor
school outcomes. Just because you have an exceptional son who thrived
on kindergarten entry when he was barely 5 does not mean that there
isn't a strong movement out there to encourage parents to hold such
boys back, and to tell them that their sons will be at risk from being
the youngest in their class, as I imagine you experienced when your son
was 5 (and I certainly experienced when I wanted to enter my
September-born son into K at nearly 5, which was "too young" by state
guidelines, though we later found a round-about route to do that and he
too thrived).

Like you, I'm against "red shirting" when it isn't really needed because
it just makes it more likely that a young 5 who does belong in K will
find the situation more difficult.

Informed opinions on the topic are mixed. But this poster did not make
up the notion tha many consider young-for-grade boys to be at risk in
Kindergarten. For example:

http://www.academy.umd.edu/AboutUs/n...s/11-11-01.htm

"If it's sit-still, paper-pencil, workbook ad infinitum, boys
are much more likely to have troubles," says James Uphoff, an
education professor at Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio,
and the author of Summer Children: Ready or Not for School.
"And the younger boys are most at risk."

http://www.srcd.org/sprv16n2.pdf

Studies of kindergarten teachers show that the majority endorse
later school entry for children who appear not to be ready for
kindergarten (NCES, 1997). The pressure to increase test scores
may encourage teachers to advise more parents to hold out
relatively young children, especially boys, who they consider
to be at risk of poor achievement.


(The quoted pieces are not meant to represent the full presentation of
the articles; merely to demonstrate the use of "at risk" terminology
applied to boys who would be young (relative to the rest of the class)
on kindergarten entry.)

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
* Support a family business and learn about the technologies underlying
the Internet with the TCP/IP Guide! http://www.tcpipguide.com
* For a challenging little arithmetic puzzle for kids and adults alike,
check out http://cgi.wff-n-proof.com/MSQ-Ind/I-1E.htm
(fwiw, I have a financial interest in the first but not the second)

  #26  
Old January 26th 04, 09:40 PM
Leah Adezio
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

Piggybacking off Marjorie's post....

om...
Sandi Jones wrote in message

...

[thar be snippage here]

With the change of focus of kindergarten, more little boys are
being prescribed Ritalin and other drugs in order to enable them to cope
with an academic environment that they are not developmentally ready to
handle.


This is not true...but I'm sure you have the cites and statistical evidence
to support your *specific* claim, yes? Please produce it.

And moderators? I thought one of the reasons the ng is moderated was to try
to keep things like meds bashing to a minimum.

I find the attitude of this poster, with her false statement which appears
to serve no purpose but to 'Ritalin/med bash' repugnant to those of us who
have children who have been properly diagnosed and are being treated for
ADD/ADHD with a variety of techniques, including medication.

Leah


  #27  
Old January 27th 04, 02:35 AM
MKM Moderation Team
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

In article , Leah Adezio wrote:

And moderators? I thought one of the reasons the ng is moderated was to try
to keep things like meds bashing to a minimum.

I find the attitude of this poster, with her false statement which appears
to serve no purpose but to 'Ritalin/med bash' repugnant to those of us who
have children who have been properly diagnosed and are being treated for
ADD/ADHD with a variety of techniques, including medication.


Thanks for your question, Leah. The moderators determined that the post
you referred to is not uncivil according to misc.kids.moderated
guidelines. In general, the moderators do not reject statements of opinion
unless they are stated in an uncivil manner or phrased in a way that could
be seen as an attack or insult to specific people. Also, moderators do
not fact-check posts. We do expect and encourage other posters to question
or refute statements they consider erroneous, just as you did here.

In this particular case, about the use of ADHD medication, we felt the
original poster was not criticizing specific parents who use medication or
claiming that children never need medication, but was stating a common
perception about overall trends. M.k.m. is a ideal place in which informed
readers can address these kinds of perceptions and provide more detailed
and personal perspectives on issues like this.

The misc.kids.moderated charter and posting guidelines may be found at
http://www.misckids.org .

-- The mkm moderators

  #28  
Old January 27th 04, 02:59 AM
Iowacookiemom
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

(Iowacookiemom) wrote in message
...
If someone's child is really not learning to read, the parent has to be
doing something very wrong, regardless of what's happening or not
happening in school.

(snip)
If a child is not learning to read, any number of things may be going

wrong,
independent of parental effort and initiative.

(snip my experience)

As the parent of 11.5 YO twins who got literally the same upbringing,
where one was reading at 3.5 and the other one STILL has reading
difficulties, I can hardly see that it has anything to do with me, a
chronic reader for whom voracious doesn't even come close to
describing my reading habits.

(snip Marjorie's experiences
Surely you don't think this is my fault, do you?


Are you suggesting that *I* suggested this was your fault? I said just the
opposite about my own experience. Something's wrong with either my ability to
express myself, your ability to understand what I'm saying, or your
attribution.

-Dawn

  #29  
Old January 27th 04, 09:55 PM
Circe
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Posts: n/a
Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

Iowacookiemom wrote:
Marjorie wrote:
As the parent of 11.5 YO twins who got literally the same upbringing,
where one was reading at 3.5 and the other one STILL has reading
difficulties, I can hardly see that it has anything to do with me, a
chronic reader for whom voracious doesn't even come close to
describing my reading habits.

(snip Marjorie's experiences
Surely you don't think this is my fault, do you?


Are you suggesting that *I* suggested this was your fault? I said
just the opposite about my own experience. Something's wrong with
either my ability to express myself, your ability to understand what
I'm saying, or your attribution.

I think Marjorie was agreeing with you and disagreeing with the poster to
whom you were responding (who stated that if a child isn't learning to read,
the *parent* much be doing something wrong).

Quite obviously, there are children with learning disabilities of various
kinds who will find reading difficult. That's not the fault of parents or
educators. And some children are simply not *ready* to learn to read when
the school curriculum dictates it. I know plenty of children who were
reading at a very rudimentary level (just enough to satisfy the
requirements) at the end of first grade only to suddenly "get it" in the
early parts of second grade and become voracious readers.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

  #30  
Old January 27th 04, 09:57 PM
Circe
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Default New Here, Q's about Kindergarten - Tips from those who've been there???

H Schinske wrote:
wrote:
The HIGH RISK Group? Where did that phrase come from? High risk of
what? Learning their ABCs too soon? Learning how to make a
relationship between the written and oral language?


It's another Gesell Institute thing -- they are very strong on having
kids, especially boys, be fully five and a half by kindergarten entry.

In fairness, the curriculum is TARGETED to 5.5yo's, not just-turned-5yo's.
And while my oldest did fine for the most entering kindergarten at 5y1m,
there were some things that were more of a struggle for him than for older
boys in his class (his fine motor skills were and still are the most
noticeable issue, since he's on the slow side for them to begin with and
boys generally lag a bit behind girls in this area anyway).

Of course, in California, the kindergarten cut-off is Dec. 2, which means
you have quite a lot of kids entering kindergarten who are not yet 5.5yo,
and many who aren't even 5yo when school starts. This is the case despite an
increasingly academic curriculum that really may be too much for many
children who are only barely or not yet 5 when school starts. That's not to
say that NONE of them are ready--a high proportion are--but parents
definitely need to decide whether an individual child is ready based on more
than just a birthdate.

In our case, I'm really struggling with the question of whether to send my
daughter (5 in July) to kindergarten next fall. If she were like my son, I
wouldn't be concerned, but she has some identified delays due to what I'd
now describe as a non-verbal learning disability (specifically, she has
trouble with sequencing auditory information, which leads to all sorts of
problems with both receptive and expressive language). Ironically, I have
the sense that she'd pass the kindergarten readiness testing with flying
colors because she knows all her letters, all the number 1-10, can count to
20, knows all the colors, can spell and write her first name, etc. IOW, all
the pre-academic skills they typically look for to determine kindergarten
readiness are there and the problem she has is so subtle, most people don't
even notice it (it took her community preschool teacher 3 months before she
noticed it, for example, and I *told* her about it). No decisions need to be
made yet, of course, but I'm already weighing the options: hold out
completely, send to Montessori kindergarten and decide the following year
whether to do kindy or first grade at the public school, or send her to
kindy with an IEP. So far, I think Montessori kindergarten is the leading
contender, but that could change after I consult with her preschool teachers
(both at the developmental school and the community preschool) in March or
April.

Anyway, that was a long way of saying that the choice of whether or not the
red-shirt is *very* dependent on the individual child and not even
particularly dependent on the child's birthdate or gender. You have to weigh
all the factors. The most important thing to remember, IMO, however, is that
children who wind up repeating kindergarten fare statistically worse over
their educational careers than children who are held out a year. I think
that argues in favor of red-shirting whenever there's any question.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

 




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