The Dumbest Claim of the Month

How many times has this unbelievably stupid statement been made in the
face of a huge problem with child abuse in this, and other countries?

"As adults I think we can tell the difference between abuse and
discipline."


No, as a matter of fact many people classified as "adults" do NOT
demonstrate they know the difference. That IS what most child
protection workers find in their cases investigating abuse, "I was just
spanking him for misbehaving."

The cases, including that statement, were accompanied by bruises,
lacerations, even broken bones...yet we keep saying such things as
though they were universally true.

The fact is adults can NOT tell when enough is enough, or too much.

Time and again parents have "punished," only to find the child was sick
or in the long run, with a neurological evaluation, incapable of
behaving as the parent wished.

I've seen far too much of this over the years working with children in
mental health.

A child with a clear diagnosis of neurological disorder or damage being
"punished" for behaviors they were not capable of controlling no matter
what one did TO the child.

Though the child can be patiently taught to change unwanted behaviors
using non-punitive methods.

Then there is the parent nearly or completely devoid of knowledge of
the normal progession of human development in the child. They expect
what the child can't do...like "share" at 2 or 3 years old
consistently. They expect a child to "not touch" when it's the human
condition to explore to learn, and nothing of more power in a child's
life at age three and about 15 can match the sheer force of the drive
to explore.

That's why I alway say to parents of the children I was responsible
for, "to understand your teen, note that they are divisable by five, so
what do you get when you divide your child of fifteen's age by five?"

There are a nearly endless variety of methods to parenting without
punishment it always astounds me anyone would take the risks inherent
in NOT knowing where the line is between "discipline" and "injury" of
one kind or another inherent in using corporal punishment.

I mean, an adult can't figure out how to get around a child's
behaviors? Please.

0:-

Michael=A9 wrote:
Wrote:

How many times has this unbelievably stupid statement been made in the
face of a huge problem with child abuse in this, and other countries?

"As adults I think we can tell the difference between abuse and
discipline."


No, as a matter of fact many people classified as "adults" do NOT
demonstrate they know the difference. That IS what most child
protection workers find in their cases investigating abuse, "I was
just spanking him for misbehaving."

The cases, including that statement, were accompanied by bruises,
lacerations, even broken bones...yet we keep saying such things as
though they were universally true.

The fact is adults can NOT tell when enough is enough, or too much.

Interesting. Yet an 'adult' CPS worker can tell when 'enough is
enough',

Yes, as long as they follow statute and policy. In fact my focus on
reform of CPS addresses this very thing. I want them better trained,
more experienced, and better paid so that people with more skill,
intelligence, and ability are hired. Other opinions differ, and would
like to try and get blood from a turnip.

whereas an 'adult' parent cannot?

I did not say they "cannot." I said that "... as a matter of fact many
people classified as "adults" do NOT demonstrate they know the
difference."

Would you care to argue in opposition to what I actually said, or is it
necessary to make things up as you go, just as you forged my post
yesterday to make it appear I had something I had not?

This could prove an
interesting thing to research.

I don't need to research it. The federal government simply keeps the
data that proves that many parents in fact do NOT know the limits when
it comes to discipline.

Care to cite a bona fide source used for
this 'fact'?

No, you know perfectly well the data says that hundreds of thousands of
parents in fact do hit and abuse their children and will try and claim
they were just disciplining. Or do you believe they immediately, upon
questions of the CPS abuse investigator, all confess that "yes, I hit
my kid deliberately to do injury?" Some even kill their children in
such actions. Stop playing the fool. It's obvious that you are up to
the usual dodging the questions I asked that you do nor or cannot
answer.

Do you work for cps?


Thanks.

Yer most welcome. All you need do is look up the data. It's been cited
here repeatedly by myself and others in the course of many an argument.


Are you planning to continue to dodge my questions? If so, then you are
a liar and have no right to be asking anything of others on this ng.
But then the unethical and immoral tend to think they are above the
niceties of polite society. Same thing that sociopaths indulge in.

0:-

Michael=A9 wrote:
Wrote:

[snip]

You creatively snipped the context so that the reader would be mislead.




I did not say they "cannot." I said that "... as a matter of fact many
people classified as "adults" do NOT demonstrate they know the
difference."

You said they 'can NOT', see below.

Michael, you are once again creatively snipping. You are a liar.

Now you prove it again. I said BOTH, so you cannot deny I said one and
not the other.



Would you care to argue in opposition to what I actually said, or is
it necessary to make things up as you go, just as you forged my post
yesterday to make it appear I had something I had not?

You deny now posting:
'The fact is adults can NOT tell when enough is enough, or too much.'?
[1]

[1] http://tinyurl.com/9hjp8

A forger posted this then, and not you?


This could prove an interesting thing to research.

I don't need to research it. The federal government simply keeps the
data that proves that many parents in fact do NOT know the limits when
it comes to discipline.

That IS the fact. Many cannot and do not know the limits.

You are dodging the issue, with a pretense of debate.

The issue is this: are there parents that cannot tell the difference
and know the limits?

Try arguing the issue, rather than a semantic irrelevancy. What "fact"
would I post, and in the absence of it, make my claim untrue?

Do you really want to argue that there are no parents that do not know
child development, the limits of abuse v discipline?

You are making a monumental fool of yourself. I'm not even helping.

Care to cite a bona fide source used for this 'fact'?

Care to cite a bona fide source that can support the claim that
thievery is a bad thing? Or would you be okay if someone broke into
your car and stole the dashboard? What proof can you offer that it's
"bad." A bona fide source please.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

Prepare to be buried under data supporting that in fact parents do NOT
universally know or understand child development. This of course leads
to abuses, neglect, and misuse of pain as discipline measure.

No, you know perfectly well the data says that hundreds of thousands
of parents in fact do hit and abuse their children and will try and
claim they were just disciplining. Or do you believe they immediately,
upon questions of the CPS abuse investigator, all confess that "yes, I
hit my kid deliberately to do injury?" Some even kill their children
in such actions. Stop playing the fool. It's obvious that you are up
to the usual dodging the questions I asked that you do nor or cannot
answer.

I thought so, again. You state your opinion as fact and decline to cite
a source where one can scrutinize the veracity of this 'fact' you claim.

No, my opinion is obviously "fact." It would be impossible for all
parents that are charged with child abuse to not have many among them
that do not know the limits.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

I have not been to the moon. I don't claim it's made of green cheeze. I
cannot prove it isn't made of green cheeze but logic and related facts
tell us it's rock, dust, and meteor detrius.

And among all the parents in the world, there are obviously a
significant number that in fact cannot tell the difference between
abuse and discipline.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

[snip the tripe]

Can't handle the truth. Want to debate the undebatable and claim that
the undebatable must be answered or the opponent is lying, as in
"veracity."

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

You are a proven habitual liar by your posts, claims, refusal to stop
dodging the questions.

And, to top it off, you are both stupid, and ignorant. It's not like
information is hard to find these days.

Or are you in fact "exercising" me to keep me from asking those very
embarrassing questions you keep lying about, Michael?

You will find that I can handle considerably more than you have the wit
to come up with and still not forget you haven't really answered at
all, but instead are using the claim...a lie...that you have answered
as an evasion.

Try again. You can answer without evasion. Surely.=20

0:-

Those of you that want the information for debate, or for knowledge and
unlike Michael can do something besides try to distract by a segue into
what I did or did not say in a single word:

http://www.zerotothree.org/pr-survey.html

What the survey shows parents DO know:

Parents Understand Many Important Issues

Although adults lack significant information about some aspects of
child development, most know a great deal about some key issues. For
example, they understand:

* Children's capabilities are not fully predetermined at birth and,
in fact, parents and caregivers play a major role in their development.
* Early experiences, even in the first months of life, have a
significant impact on a child's capabilities much later in life.
* Emotional closeness (i.e., love) with children has a profound
impact on a child's intellectual, social and emotional development.


What the survey shows they don't know (exactly as I've pointed
out...hell I've done client and patient survey work on this myself):

Parents Value Less Beneficial Forms of Play

According to Dr. Pruett, "play is extremely important to a child's
development; a way for children to learn about their world." While most
parents understand the importance of play, there are still several
information gaps:

* Many parents place too much emphasis on less valuable forms of
play, such as flashcards, educational television and computer
activities.
* Parents also don't understand the importance of the connection
between physical play, such as playground activities, and intellectual
development.


Parents Expectations Aren't Always Appropriate

Most American adults, according to the survey, are confused about what
should be realistically expected from young children at different ages.

* 51 percent of parents of young children expect a 15-month-old to
share her toys, and 26 percent of all adults expect a three-year-old to
sit quietly for one hour at a time - both unrealistic expectations,
according to experts.
* 26 percent of all adults, and 23 percent of parents of young
children believe that a child as young as six-months will not suffer
any long-term effects from witnessing violence. Child development
research shows it can have long-lasting, detrimental effects on a
child's social and emotional development and his developing brain.
* 61 percent of all adults, and 55 percent of parents with young
children, do not know when young babies begin to sense and are affected
by the moods of others. This is crucial because child development
research shows that if a caregiver is particularly anxious or
depressed, it can have a damaging effect on a baby's development.
* 40 percent of parents of young children incorrectly believe a
12-month-old who turns the TV on and off repeatedly while her parents
are trying to watch it, believe she is "angry and trying to get back at
them."
* 72 percent of parents of young children were unaware that
children as young as four months of age, can experience real
depression; 51 percent believe children cannot experience depression
until they are at least three years of age.


You might like to read the full report...it's very long...if you have
questions, but these are issues I dealt with professionally in mental
health work for many years. It's nor really changed all that much from
the 80s when I was doing that work actively. Too many Michaels out
there, along with his buddies bobber, and greegor.

0:-

On 28 Sep 2005 wrote:

Those of you that want the information for debate, or for knowledge and
unlike Michael can do something besides try to distract by a segue into
what I did or did not say in a single word:

IOW, he caught me lying so now I will try some distraction of my own. ;-)

[snipped]

Doan

Kane,

It does appear that Michael is relying on semantics rather than debating
the issue at hand.

It is a fact that there are parents cannot and do not differentiate
between discipline and abuse.

I knew a mother whose child was in early childhood special education.
The little girl kept reaching for pots on the stove. Her mother plunged
the little girl's hands into a pot of hot water to teach her the danger
of reaching for pots on the stove. She suffered third degree burns.
Two years later her mother was still insisting that she was just
disciplining her child and didn't know that she would be burned as badly
as she was.

I had a neighbor who locked her teenage son in the attic without food,
water, or a bathroom to teach him to "mind her." She viewed this
practice as discipline.

Recently in my state a couple locked their child in a dog kennel for
extended periods of time as discipline for "out of control behavior."
The case went to court and they received a jail sentence for child abuse.

Indeed, there are many parents who cannot and do not know the difference
between discipline and abuse. And, we do not make it easier for these
parents with our arbitrary laws and our blanket licenses to hit and hurt
children in the name of discipline.

LaVonne

wrote:
Michael© wrote:

Wrote:

[snip]


You creatively snipped the context so that the reader would be mislead.



I did not say they "cannot." I said that "... as a matter of fact many
people classified as "adults" do NOT demonstrate they know the
difference."

You said they 'can NOT', see below.


Michael, you are once again creatively snipping. You are a liar.

Now you prove it again. I said BOTH, so you cannot deny I said one and
not the other.


Would you care to argue in opposition to what I actually said, or is
it necessary to make things up as you go, just as you forged my post
yesterday to make it appear I had something I had not?

You deny now posting:
'The fact is adults can NOT tell when enough is enough, or too much.'?
[1]

[1] http://tinyurl.com/9hjp8

A forger posted this then, and not you?


This could prove an interesting thing to research.

I don't need to research it. The federal government simply keeps the
data that proves that many parents in fact do NOT know the limits when
it comes to discipline.


That IS the fact. Many cannot and do not know the limits.

You are dodging the issue, with a pretense of debate.

The issue is this: are there parents that cannot tell the difference
and know the limits?

Try arguing the issue, rather than a semantic irrelevancy. What "fact"
would I post, and in the absence of it, make my claim untrue?

Do you really want to argue that there are no parents that do not know
child development, the limits of abuse v discipline?

You are making a monumental fool of yourself. I'm not even helping.


Care to cite a bona fide source used for this 'fact'?


Care to cite a bona fide source that can support the claim that
thievery is a bad thing? Or would you be okay if someone broke into
your car and stole the dashboard? What proof can you offer that it's
"bad." A bona fide source please.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

Prepare to be buried under data supporting that in fact parents do NOT
universally know or understand child development. This of course leads
to abuses, neglect, and misuse of pain as discipline measure.


No, you know perfectly well the data says that hundreds of thousands
of parents in fact do hit and abuse their children and will try and
claim they were just disciplining. Or do you believe they immediately,
upon questions of the CPS abuse investigator, all confess that "yes, I
hit my kid deliberately to do injury?" Some even kill their children
in such actions. Stop playing the fool. It's obvious that you are up
to the usual dodging the questions I asked that you do nor or cannot
answer.

I thought so, again. You state your opinion as fact and decline to cite
a source where one can scrutinize the veracity of this 'fact' you claim.


No, my opinion is obviously "fact." It would be impossible for all
parents that are charged with child abuse to not have many among them
that do not know the limits.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

I have not been to the moon. I don't claim it's made of green cheeze. I
cannot prove it isn't made of green cheeze but logic and related facts
tell us it's rock, dust, and meteor detrius.

And among all the parents in the world, there are obviously a
significant number that in fact cannot tell the difference between
abuse and discipline.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf


[snip the tripe]


Can't handle the truth. Want to debate the undebatable and claim that
the undebatable must be answered or the opponent is lying, as in
"veracity."

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

You are a proven habitual liar by your posts, claims, refusal to stop
dodging the questions.

And, to top it off, you are both stupid, and ignorant. It's not like
information is hard to find these days.

Or are you in fact "exercising" me to keep me from asking those very
embarrassing questions you keep lying about, Michael?

You will find that I can handle considerably more than you have the wit
to come up with and still not forget you haven't really answered at
all, but instead are using the claim...a lie...that you have answered
as an evasion.

Try again. You can answer without evasion. Surely.

0:-

Carlson LaVonne wrote:
Kane,

It does appear that Michael is relying on semantics rather than debating
the issue at hand.

In his case it appears more as lying than relying. He knows perfectly
well what the truth is. After all, he claims to be a "certified peace
officer."

It is a fact that there are parents cannot and do not differentiate
between discipline and abuse.

The argument could be and has been put forward that given the
relatively tiny size (highly debatable in a society that claims 90% or
so of us are spanked by our parents) laws should not be created just to
control the few at the expense of the many. This has two logical
fallacies within it of course. That there will be an expense to the
many, (not shown by countries that have passed such laws), and that
people can't change.

Well, there is a third, and it's about the very core of such an
argument...that we need not have laws for the minority of us to control
the mass of us.

Would you agree that out of the entire population there are only a
miniscule number that rob banks? Or kill, for that matter? So would I.
Should we lobby for the removal of pertaining laws?

I knew a mother whose child was in early childhood special education.
The little girl kept reaching for pots on the stove. Her mother plunged
the little girl's hands into a pot of hot water to teach her the danger
of reaching for pots on the stove. She suffered third degree burns.
Two years later her mother was still insisting that she was just
disciplining her child and didn't know that she would be burned as badly
as she was.

When I did my work study and practicum with Oregon CSD over 1980-81 I
was assigned to compile (you know about student interns, of course...R
R R R) data from case records. No computers were being used for the
data collection then. All paper.

The things I found. Grandmothers sexually abusing their grandchildren.
Ritualistic tortures, including sexual torture, even bestiality. Not an
amusing task, but it did give me considerable insight to those that
claim CPS doesn't do its job, and there isn't that much to do.

I had a neighbor who locked her teenage son in the attic without food,
water, or a bathroom to teach him to "mind her." She viewed this
practice as discipline.

Recently in my state a couple locked their child in a dog kennel for
extended periods of time as discipline for "out of control behavior."
The case went to court and they received a jail sentence for child abuse.

Indeed, there are many parents who cannot and do not know the difference
between discipline and abuse. And, we do not make it easier for these
parents with our arbitrary laws and our blanket licenses to hit and hurt
children in the name of discipline.

An interesting argument. You contend then that child abuse of the kind
you relate above, so called "discipline" that is so out of hand, would
reduce under a law? Seems it worked that way in Sweden. I just wonder
if US citizens would ease up on the children.

I guess we are going to find out. I'm not willing to come to the end of
my life without something more definitive happening toward the end of
this brutal savagery toward children. I have to, in good conscience,
get behind efforts to pass laws, or amend them, so that the rules that
apply for adult assault and battery are extended fully to children.

Possibly the domestic abuse statutes would work.

We have some overlap now with assaults on children that rise to the
level of criminal cases. Imagine. I, an adult, do not have to injured
to make a criminal complaint and a civil one against someone that hits
me, or attempts or threatens to. Yet a child is denied this protection.
By law.

No reason, just as I enjoy, a child should not be protected from the
lessor injuries or insults of being hit, or threatened with it.

Kane

LaVonne

wrote:
Michael=A9 wrote:

Wrote:

[snip]


You creatively snipped the context so that the reader would be mislead.



I did not say they "cannot." I said that "... as a matter of fact many
people classified as "adults" do NOT demonstrate they know the
difference."

You said they 'can NOT', see below.


Michael, you are once again creatively snipping. You are a liar.

Now you prove it again. I said BOTH, so you cannot deny I said one and
not the other.


Would you care to argue in opposition to what I actually said, or is
it necessary to make things up as you go, just as you forged my post
yesterday to make it appear I had something I had not?

You deny now posting:
'The fact is adults can NOT tell when enough is enough, or too much.'?
[1]

[1] http://tinyurl.com/9hjp8

A forger posted this then, and not you?


This could prove an interesting thing to research.

I don't need to research it. The federal government simply keeps the
data that proves that many parents in fact do NOT know the limits when
it comes to discipline.


That IS the fact. Many cannot and do not know the limits.

You are dodging the issue, with a pretense of debate.

The issue is this: are there parents that cannot tell the difference
and know the limits?

Try arguing the issue, rather than a semantic irrelevancy. What "fact"
would I post, and in the absence of it, make my claim untrue?

Do you really want to argue that there are no parents that do not know
child development, the limits of abuse v discipline?

You are making a monumental fool of yourself. I'm not even helping.


Care to cite a bona fide source used for this 'fact'?


Care to cite a bona fide source that can support the claim that
thievery is a bad thing? Or would you be okay if someone broke into
your car and stole the dashboard? What proof can you offer that it's
"bad." A bona fide source please.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

Prepare to be buried under data supporting that in fact parents do NOT
universally know or understand child development. This of course leads
to abuses, neglect, and misuse of pain as discipline measure.


No, you know perfectly well the data says that hundreds of thousands
of parents in fact do hit and abuse their children and will try and
claim they were just disciplining. Or do you believe they immediately,
upon questions of the CPS abuse investigator, all confess that "yes, I
hit my kid deliberately to do injury?" Some even kill their children
in such actions. Stop playing the fool. It's obvious that you are up
to the usual dodging the questions I asked that you do nor or cannot
answer.

I thought so, again. You state your opinion as fact and decline to cite
a source where one can scrutinize the veracity of this 'fact' you claim.


No, my opinion is obviously "fact." It would be impossible for all
parents that are charged with child abuse to not have many among them
that do not know the limits.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

I have not been to the moon. I don't claim it's made of green cheeze. I
cannot prove it isn't made of green cheeze but logic and related facts
tell us it's rock, dust, and meteor detrius.

And among all the parents in the world, there are obviously a
significant number that in fact cannot tell the difference between
abuse and discipline.

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf


[snip the tripe]


Can't handle the truth. Want to debate the undebatable and claim that
the undebatable must be answered or the opponent is lying, as in
"veracity."

http://www.zerotothree.org/fullreport.pdf

You are a proven habitual liar by your posts, claims, refusal to stop
dodging the questions.

And, to top it off, you are both stupid, and ignorant. It's not like
information is hard to find these days.

Or are you in fact "exercising" me to keep me from asking those very
embarrassing questions you keep lying about, Michael?

You will find that I can handle considerably more than you have the wit
to come up with and still not forget you haven't really answered at
all, but instead are using the claim...a lie...that you have answered
as an evasion.

Try again. You can answer without evasion. Surely.
=20
0:-

I must admit that I had to go back to the original post to see for sure,
and it is 'do' not not 'can' not. But no matter.

I agree that there are some parents or caregivers who do not know the
difference and they should attend classes on parenting and perhaps anger
management. As a child I was spanked and I rememeber each and everyone,
there were only three.
It didn't make me grow up to be violent or abusive. It didn't make me want
to spoil children with things.
I do expect when I require attention or action on a child's part that it
will be followed through and if I have to discipline then I make sure I
follow through.
As for children with problems...one of my godsons has CP and he is the
best behaved of the five siblings in his home. Yes his IQ is low and it
takes him a few more minutes to accomplish things but he doesn't give the
backtalk that his brothers and sister do, he doesn't run off and
disappear. He is a kind and helpful young man and to many when they look
at him have pity in their eyes.
I have intervened on behalf of children who are dragged to stores when
they should be napping or at a meal and the parents are losing it.
I do think there is a place for spanking and that is not in the heat of
the moment. I also think it should be a last resort when dealing with a
child.
But there truly are parents out there who can and do know the difference
between discipline with love and abuse and they should be left to carry on
raising their children to be the best that they can.
Too many times I've seen agencies interfere with this and loving parents
are dragged through the mill. I realise that each case is different and
they should all be looked into, but if the parents are kind and the
children are not afraid to speak their thoughts what does that say?
On the other hand I've seen parental abuse that is haphazardly looked into
and the children go on suffering.
We all make mistakes and I don't think it's fair to cubbyhole so many.

As for citing sources, on a topic such as this it would rather difficult.
Cases are given the privacy that they deserve.
If Michael wants to know what the powers that be think all he has to do is
make an appointment and ask them, I'm sure they would be happy to quote
statistics, real or not to him.

I sound cynical and I suppose I am. I beleive that parents should be
allowed to raise their children in the way they wish, with little
interferences. But I also think that until family members are willing to
raise red flags when needed, that we desperately need people who are
willing to be yelled at, sworn at and treated badly. These are the folks
who are willing to put themselves out for love of children and help to
keep them safe.

devils_advocate wrote:
I must admit that I had to go back to the original post to see for sure,
and it is 'do' not not 'can' not. But no matter.

"No matter?" The meaning of words used don't matter?

I agree that there are some parents or caregivers who do not know the
difference and they should attend classes on parenting and perhaps anger
management.

Yes.

As a child I was spanked and I rememeber each and everyone,
there were only three.

That probably makes you atypical.

It didn't make me grow up to be violent or abusive. It didn't make me want
to spoil children with things.

Those that are violent and abusive usually are not aware of it.

I'm not sure what spoiling has to do with spanking.

I do expect when I require attention or action on a child's part that it
will be followed through and if I have to discipline then I make sure I
follow through.

The question is, what is appropriate in asking for a child's attention
or action. And what do you mean by "follow through?" Do you spank? Then
isn't it possible you are not the best judge of "appropriate" and "
violent or abusive?"

As for children with problems...one of my godsons has CP and he is the
best behaved of the five siblings in his home. Yes his IQ is low and it
takes him a few more minutes to accomplish things but he doesn't give the
backtalk that his brothers and sister do, he doesn't run off and
disappear. He is a kind and helpful young man and to many when they look
at him have pity in their eyes.

Children with disabilities can become accutely aware of their
vulnerability. Do you wish children without CP to well behaved because
they are afraid?

I have intervened on behalf of children who are dragged to stores when
they should be napping or at a meal and the parents are losing it.
I do think there is a place for spanking and that is not in the heat of
the moment. I also think it should be a last resort when dealing with a
child.

Why a "resort" of any kind?

Why not simply learn and use other strategies that work as well, or
better, and have zero risk compared to hitting a child?

But there truly are parents out there who can and do know the difference
between discipline with love and abuse and they should be left to carry on
raising their children to be the best that they can.

Actually that brings up a very significant question.

Can we really say, with all assurance, what you just said? That all
parents, or any, know with certainty what the limit is, the dividing
line, between safe "corporal punishment" for discipline, and injury to
mind and or body?

A child may be sick and not functioning well, or simply not
developmentally ready to respond as the parent desires. Children are
each different.

Give all the myriad variables in place in child rearing, from child to
parent to surroundings to circumstances how can we be so sure that any
parent actually knows that it's "safe" on this occasion to spank?

Why not use gentle methods? In fact why not use ONLY non-punitive
methods? Why do we need to cause another discomfort for the purpose of
"teaching?"

I never needed to. I might have done so, inadvertently, but I was
always aware, especially later as I observed the reactions and
outcomes, that I should NOT have used a tone of voice, or words, that
were punishing in their effect.

And more and more as I learned to be more supportive the better the
results were.

In fact I often worried my children were sometimes too compliant and
concerned with my feelings and wants for and about their behavior.

Too many times I've seen agencies interfere with this and loving parents
are dragged through the mill.

BS

I realise that each case is different and
they should all be looked into, but if the parents are kind and the
children are not afraid to speak their thoughts what does that say?

You think a child can't, by spanking parents, be trained to appear to
be outgoing? Hell, look at the Pearl family. Pictures of them have
everyone smiling with what appears to look almost like death rictus.
It's chilling how 'cheerful' they all appear. Brrrrrr.

These are people that avocate the painful punishment of month old
babies.

On the other hand I've seen parental abuse that is haphazardly looked into
and the children go on suffering.

I've noticed that if I look hard enough, or even casually 0:-, that I
can find errors nearly everywhere and in everyone. Now I can use such
events for lying, or for telling the truth, or for even fooling myself,
if I'm inclined that way. But the truth is more important than my
comfort.

We all make mistakes and I don't think it's fair to cubbyhole so many.

Then don't.

You have labelled a set of parents as being "okay" and "knowing" when
it's okay to hit and how to hit, presuming you mean without risk to the
child.

As for citing sources, on a topic such as this it would rather difficult.
Cases are given the privacy that they deserve.
If Michael wants to know what the powers that be think all he has to do is
make an appointment and ask them, I'm sure they would be happy to quote
statistics, real or not to him.

What would be a non-"real" statistic? Do you mean they would lie?

I sound cynical and I suppose I am. I beleive that parents should be
allowed to raise their children in the way they wish, with little
interferences.

What you don't get is that this true already. Notice we have not a
single state with a law against spanking children by their parents, and
even some states allow others in authority to spank the child
(schools).

But I also think that until family members are willing to
raise red flags when needed, that we desperately need people who are
willing to be yelled at, sworn at and treated badly. These are the folks
who are willing to put themselves out for love of children and help to
keep them safe.

There's no possible response to such a statement. Not a sensible one.

0:-

You know, this was originally meant to back you up in what you had written,
but you seem to think that everyone is out to get you for some reason.
By 'no matter', I meant it didnt matter that I had to go and make sure,
unlike Michael who just ranted about it.

Maybe it makes me atypical but the three I received were not for any
purpose that I could see, not then and not now.

I agree that most people who are violent and abusive are not aware of it.
I do not hit, and when I do hurt someone's feelings with words I am quick
to apologise. This doesn't mean I shouldn't learn from mistakes, but
sometimes I just don't think before I open my mouth like so many of us do.


Where did fear come into this? I would not wish for any child to ever have
to be afraid of the very people that they should feel protected by. It
would crush me if I thought for one moment that any of the kids in my life
were afraid. I don't think that is the case though, they all hang around
too much.

The spoiling comes from the well wishers that were abused, 'I'll never...
fill in the blanks.'


I personally do not spank. I use the time honoured 'time out' or if needed
I sit down with whomever and we talk it over. There are times when a child
just can't manage to do what has been asked and I tend to honour that.
Also, I do not expect a three-year-old to clean a room, do the laundry or
cook a meal. I do understand age appropriate chores.

If a child is sick or tired the last thing anyone should do is expect them
to anything more than rest. I know I do when I feel bad or tired, why
shouldn't they?

I can't say there is absolutely no room for not spanking. I've seen far to
many nonspanked kids who are verbally abused as a matter of course.

I don't know this family but I have seen what the cults can do and you are
right, it's frightening. It's vey hard to know where love ends and I just
think each case needs to be taken on it's own merits. Obviously these
people needed a lot more involvement.

Oh no not BS it happens and if you are so quick to judge maybe you need to
talk to parents that have been.
What about the moms and dads accused of abuse and the child has brittle
bone disease? What about the young single mom whose daughter won't eat
enough to get chubby and she is accused of starving her?

I wasn't the one cubbyholing and still am not but you have on both
ocassions. If someone doesn't agree with you whole heartedly they must be
wrong. I may agree with you in principle, but that doesn't mean that I
think you are totally right.

I believe that agencies tell what they wish to tell and nothing more.
Would we have known that kids were lost in the cracks if the papers hadn't
somehow gotten wind of it? Doubtful. Would we have heard about the parents
dragged through the dirt and found innocent if it weren't for the fact
that they told their stories? And do you believe that agencies are always
truthful? Take the rose coloured glasses off please.

Why not a sensible one? Can you not find one kind word to say to the child
caseworkers and what they have to endure? Are there no hooraahs for the
protective childworkers who get called all kinds of names and screamed at?

Sensibly I think we should give them the support they need and speak out
for the children who need their help.

Now to recap. No I do not advocate spanking children.
No I do not advocate asking a small child to do things beyond their
abilities.
No I do not expect an older child to verbally abuse me or strike me
either.
No I do not expect a sick or tired child to do anything but rest and get
refreshed.
No I do not expect adults to sit back and let children be abused or
emotionally damaged.
Yes I think gentle loving care is the best way.
Yes I think any child well respond well to being treated with respect and
care.
Yes I think most parents want the best for their children and try to make
sure that they are doing the best job they can.
No I am not as singleminded as you and will try to see both sides without
condemnation and belittling.