Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?

Male Reproductive Choice
Equal Rights for Men in the Choices Women Enjoy Post Conception

Facts:
1) Women have more options than men when it comes to preventing
conception.
2) Women can act, unilaterally, to conceive without a man
immediately present. Sperm can remain vital in the Seminole fluid so
long as it remains moist. Ejaculate can be recovered from a used
condom, puddles on the body, or anywhere it has not dried or come into
contact with a neutralizing agent.
3) The 14th amendment, Section 1 indicates a male's inability to
choose could be considered unconstitutional:
a. A woman's right to choose can be construed as her ability to
be immune from the responsibilities incurred as a result of conception
leading to child birth. This is true in the case of abortion and
adoption. Men have no such immunity.
b. Equal protection of the laws would indicate that men should
have the same immunity offered by this amendment.
c. Child support ordered without this equal protection deprives a
man of property without due process of the law, which would be to
enforce the immunities offered women (point a) equally to men (point
B).
4) Generally, healthy women have some idea they could be pregnant
within 4 weeks (missed menstruation), 8 weeks tops (as she waits to
see if menstruation is simply late).
5) Women may opt to abort within a specified time after
conception which is well beyond when they should have an idea they may
be pregnant.
6) Women may opt to place the child for adoption at any time,
including post birth.
7) There are more couples waiting to adopt a healthy baby than
there are babies given up for adoption within the United States.

Proposal:
Give men a reasonable window of opportunity to be immune from the
responsibilities incurred as a result of pregnancy and child birth
within the window of opportunity women have to abort.

Implementation:
1) Allow a window of opportunity for men to be immune from
parentage which allows them a sufficient time to respond to
notification (i.e. 2 weeks from receipt of notice).
2) Require women to notify potential fathers of the unborn/born
child via certified mail (return receipt, restricted delivery) in
order to solidify any rights they may have to assign partial
responsibility if the man does not respond.
a. Giving the man the same window of opportunity post-birth would
encourage women to notify man as soon as possible to retain all of her
options.
b. Requiring notification would encourage women to be responsible
about with whom they choose to be intimate. Not knowing how to reach
the man in the event of conception is most likely an indication of
promiscuity and she will have to weigh the potential inability to find
man until it is too late to abort against his right to notification
and his potential declaration of immunity to responsibility.
3) If the man responds in kind (i.e. certified mail, etc…) and
does not wish to have a child at this time, he is forever relieved of
responsibility. He is also forever restricted from any rights.
4) Man's name is never furnished to the child (as would be the
case in an adoption) if man provides woman with a family medical
history which may be necessary in the future. Otherwise, man's name
may be furnished to child upon child's reaching the age of majority.
If multiple potential fathers are contacted and decline to have a
child, blood typing may eliminate potential medical histories.

Ramifications for women:
1) Women retain the right to choose.
2) Women are better informed as to the intentions of the man with
regard to likelihood of his evading responsibility.
3) Women have the signature of the man indicating he knows of his
potential responsibilities.

Ramifications for men:
1) Men gain the right to choose.
2) Child support may never be retroactive past the date of
notification.
3) Notification may be sooner than it otherwise may have been.

Ramifications for children the woman chooses to carry to term:
1) They may never know who their father is
a. Such is already the case in adoptions
b. Such is already the case when woman chooses to deny man
opportunity to be a parent.
c. Such is already the case when woman has been promiscuous.
2) They may live in poverty
a. Such is already the case when women choose to keep children
when they have no viable means of support.
b. Such is already the case when child support needs to be
extracted from a man who actively evades his responsibility.

Ramifications for Society:
1) Welfare will not have an offset to awards to mothers who elect
to have a child after a male's choice is not to have a child.
a. Services to families of "decide-alone" mothers should not
exceed a period in which the mother receives unemployment
compensation.
b. Child Protective Services should monitor the family of a
"decide-alone" mother receiving or transitioning from welfare services
to ensure that the child's needs are met. They should also act as
they would in any other case should they find neglect.
2) The number of healthy babies put up for adoption may meet the
demand once a woman finds that having a baby is not an
income-producing act.
a. Currently, because of both welfare and child support, a woman
is reasonably assured that she will have some sort of income if she
chooses to h

Clever but pointless!


"Beverly" wrote in message
...
Male Reproductive Choice
Equal Rights for Men in the Choices Women Enjoy Post Conception

Facts:
1) Women have more options than men when it comes to preventing
conception.
2) Women can act, unilaterally, to conceive without a man
immediately present. Sperm can remain vital in the Seminole fluid so
long as it remains moist. Ejaculate can be recovered from a used
condom, puddles on the body, or anywhere it has not dried or come into
contact with a neutralizing agent.
3) The 14th amendment, Section 1 indicates a male's inability to
choose could be considered unconstitutional:
a. A woman's right to choose can be construed as her ability to
be immune from the responsibilities incurred as a result of conception
leading to child birth. This is true in the case of abortion and
adoption. Men have no such immunity.
b. Equal protection of the laws would indicate that men should
have the same immunity offered by this amendment.
c. Child support ordered without this equal protection deprives a
man of property without due process of the law, which would be to
enforce the immunities offered women (point a) equally to men (point
B).
4) Generally, healthy women have some idea they could be pregnant
within 4 weeks (missed menstruation), 8 weeks tops (as she waits to
see if menstruation is simply late).
5) Women may opt to abort within a specified time after
conception which is well beyond when they should have an idea they may
be pregnant.
6) Women may opt to place the child for adoption at any time,
including post birth.
7) There are more couples waiting to adopt a healthy baby than
there are babies given up for adoption within the United States.

Proposal:
Give men a reasonable window of opportunity to be immune from the
responsibilities incurred as a result of pregnancy and child birth
within the window of opportunity women have to abort.

Implementation:
1) Allow a window of opportunity for men to be immune from
parentage which allows them a sufficient time to respond to
notification (i.e. 2 weeks from receipt of notice).
2) Require women to notify potential fathers of the unborn/born
child via certified mail (return receipt, restricted delivery) in
order to solidify any rights they may have to assign partial
responsibility if the man does not respond.
a. Giving the man the same window of opportunity post-birth would
encourage women to notify man as soon as possible to retain all of her
options.
b. Requiring notification would encourage women to be responsible
about with whom they choose to be intimate. Not knowing how to reach
the man in the event of conception is most likely an indication of
promiscuity and she will have to weigh the potential inability to find
man until it is too late to abort against his right to notification
and his potential declaration of immunity to responsibility.
3) If the man responds in kind (i.e. certified mail, etc.) and
does not wish to have a child at this time, he is forever relieved of
responsibility. He is also forever restricted from any rights.
4) Man's name is never furnished to the child (as would be the
case in an adoption) if man provides woman with a family medical
history which may be necessary in the future. Otherwise, man's name
may be furnished to child upon child's reaching the age of majority.
If multiple potential fathers are contacted and decline to have a
child, blood typing may eliminate potential medical histories.

Ramifications for women:
1) Women retain the right to choose.
2) Women are better informed as to the intentions of the man with
regard to likelihood of his evading responsibility.
3) Women have the signature of the man indicating he knows of his
potential responsibilities.

Ramifications for men:
1) Men gain the right to choose.
2) Child support may never be retroactive past the date of
notification.
3) Notification may be sooner than it otherwise may have been.

Ramifications for children the woman chooses to carry to term:
1) They may never know who their father is
a. Such is already the case in adoptions
b. Such is already the case when woman chooses to deny man
opportunity to be a parent.
c. Such is already the case when woman has been promiscuous.
2) They may live in poverty
a. Such is already the case when women choose to keep children
when they have no viable means of support.
b. Such is already the case when child support needs to be
extracted from a man who actively evades his responsibility.

Ramifications for Society:
1) Welfare will not have an offset to awards to mothers who elect
to have a child after a male's choice is not to have a child.
a. Services to families of "decide-alone" mothers should not
exceed a period in which the mother receives unemployment
compensation.
b. Child Protective Services should monitor the family of a
"decide-alone" mother receiving or transitioning from welfare services
to ensure that the child's needs are met. They should also act as
they would in any other case should they find neglect.
2) The number of healthy babies put up for adoption may meet the
demand once a woman finds that having a baby is not an
income-producing act.
a. Currently, because of both welfare and child support, a woman
is reasonably assured that she will have some sort of income if she
chooses to h

"DB" wrote in message
. com...
Clever but pointless!
===
Well, you seem to have thought that through. Actually, what men need as a
very simple matter of things,
is birth control pills.
===


"Beverly" wrote in message
...
Male Reproductive Choice
Equal Rights for Men in the Choices Women Enjoy Post Conception

Facts:
1) Women have more options than men when it comes to preventing
conception.
2) Women can act, unilaterally, to conceive without a man
immediately present. Sperm can remain vital in the Seminole fluid so
long as it remains moist. Ejaculate can be recovered from a used
condom, puddles on the body, or anywhere it has not dried or come into
contact with a neutralizing agent.
3) The 14th amendment, Section 1 indicates a male's inability to
choose could be considered unconstitutional:
a. A woman's right to choose can be construed as her ability to
be immune from the responsibilities incurred as a result of conception
leading to child birth. This is true in the case of abortion and
adoption. Men have no such immunity.
b. Equal protection of the laws would indicate that men should
have the same immunity offered by this amendment.
c. Child support ordered without this equal protection deprives a
man of property without due process of the law, which would be to
enforce the immunities offered women (point a) equally to men (point
B).
4) Generally, healthy women have some idea they could be pregnant
within 4 weeks (missed menstruation), 8 weeks tops (as she waits to
see if menstruation is simply late).
5) Women may opt to abort within a specified time after
conception which is well beyond when they should have an idea they may
be pregnant.
6) Women may opt to place the child for adoption at any time,
including post birth.
7) There are more couples waiting to adopt a healthy baby than
there are babies given up for adoption within the United States.

Proposal:
Give men a reasonable window of opportunity to be immune from the
responsibilities incurred as a result of pregnancy and child birth
within the window of opportunity women have to abort.

Implementation:
1) Allow a window of opportunity for men to be immune from
parentage which allows them a sufficient time to respond to
notification (i.e. 2 weeks from receipt of notice).
2) Require women to notify potential fathers of the unborn/born
child via certified mail (return receipt, restricted delivery) in
order to solidify any rights they may have to assign partial
responsibility if the man does not respond.
a. Giving the man the same window of opportunity post-birth would
encourage women to notify man as soon as possible to retain all of her
options.
b. Requiring notification would encourage women to be responsible
about with whom they choose to be intimate. Not knowing how to reach
the man in the event of conception is most likely an indication of
promiscuity and she will have to weigh the potential inability to find
man until it is too late to abort against his right to notification
and his potential declaration of immunity to responsibility.
3) If the man responds in kind (i.e. certified mail, etc.) and
does not wish to have a child at this time, he is forever relieved of
responsibility. He is also forever restricted from any rights.
4) Man's name is never furnished to the child (as would be the
case in an adoption) if man provides woman with a family medical
history which may be necessary in the future. Otherwise, man's name
may be furnished to child upon child's reaching the age of majority.
If multiple potential fathers are contacted and decline to have a
child, blood typing may eliminate potential medical histories.

Ramifications for women:
1) Women retain the right to choose.
2) Women are better informed as to the intentions of the man with
regard to likelihood of his evading responsibility.
3) Women have the signature of the man indicating he knows of his
potential responsibilities.

Ramifications for men:
1) Men gain the right to choose.
2) Child support may never be retroactive past the date of
notification.
3) Notification may be sooner than it otherwise may have been.

Ramifications for children the woman chooses to carry to term:
1) They may never know who their father is
a. Such is already the case in adoptions
b. Such is already the case when woman chooses to deny man
opportunity to be a parent.
c. Such is already the case when woman has been promiscuous.
2) They may live in poverty
a. Such is already the case when women choose to keep children
when they have no viable means of support.
b. Such is already the case when child support needs to be
extracted from a man who actively evades his responsibility.

Ramifications for Society:
1) Welfare will not have an offset to awards to mothers who elect
to have a child after a male's choice is not to have a child.
a. Services to families of "decide-alone" mothers should not
exceed a period in which the mother receives unemployment
compensation.
b. Child Protective Services should monitor the family of a
"decide-alone" mother receiving or transitioning from welfare services
to ensure that the child's needs are met. They should also act as
they would in any other case should they find neglect.
2) The number of healthy babies put up for adoption may meet the
demand once a woman finds that having a baby is not an
income-producing act.
a. Currently, because of both welfare and child support, a woman
is reasonably assured that she will have some sort of income if she
chooses to h

"Gini" wrote in message
news:WbMkf.1526$605.829@trndny09...

"DB" wrote in message
. com...
Clever but pointless!
===
Well, you seem to have thought that through. Actually, what men need as a
very simple matter of things,
is birth control pills.
===

Too True!

Beverly's post was excellent, unfortunately it's a wasted effort on these
usenet forums!

"DB" wrote in message
. com...

"Gini" wrote in message
news:WbMkf.1526$605.829@trndny09...

"DB" wrote in message
. com...
Clever but pointless!
===
Well, you seem to have thought that through. Actually, what men need as a
very simple matter of things,
is birth control pills.
===

Too True!

Beverly's post was excellent, unfortunately it's a wasted effort on these
usenet forums!
====
Not necessarily. Change normally evolves from many varied bits of
information and experience.
Several people here work with their state congressional reps and Beverly's
ideas could be very useful
to them (or anyone else who writes his/her representatives).
====

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 01:35:40 GMT, "DB"
wrote:


"Gini" wrote in message
news:WbMkf.1526$605.829@trndny09...

"DB" wrote in message
. com...
Clever but pointless!
===
Well, you seem to have thought that through. Actually, what men need as a
very simple matter of things,
is birth control pills.
===

Too True!

Beverly's post was excellent, unfortunately it's a wasted effort on these
usenet forums!


Thanks for saying my post was excellent. Actually, it was not meant
to be a post when I first began thinking about it. I've given
consideration to writing it as a bill. I was hoping to get some
feedback, negative is actually best, so that I can refine some points
and come up with some solutions to what may be big concerns
pre-emptively.

I've actually experienced the satisfaction of at least partially
changing a law at the state level on an issue I felt strongly about.
I feel strongly about male reproductive choice and believe that
someday it is a fight that can be won. Without going into details,
I've won fights that were considered unwinnable. That's because I
don't know when to give up.

Not only did my eldest son's father have the ability to make this
choice (he said he wanted me to abort and, for all that concerned him,
I did... but *I* raised a wonderful son). I have three sons and teach
them abstinence, although we all know how few are the number of people
who actually marry before losing their virginity. I want these rights
for my sons and all men. Women who become pregnant before they are
ready to be mothers need not be mothers in the eyes of the law.

Women are so ready to fight for equality; yet, many forget that an
unmarried pregnant woman is NOT a victim. She has choices and she has
"outs" when she makes bad choices. It is time women stood up and
ACTED as equals... which means giving as much as getting.

"Beverly" wrote in

Beverly's post was excellent, unfortunately it's a wasted effort on these
usenet forums!


Thanks for saying my post was excellent.

I read every word of your post and thought, "too bad nobody from the
Government is reading this!".
I was always under the impression that people were just venting here.

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Beverly's post was excellent, unfortunately it's a wasted effort on
these
usenet forums!


Thanks for saying my post was excellent.

I read every word of your post and thought, "too bad nobody from the
Government is reading this!".
I was always under the impression that people were just venting here.

Jon and I, and several others who have posted here, have testified before
the Oregon House Judiciary Committee where citizens can testify about
pending CS legislation. The Internet allows many of us to monitor bills
pending before the State Legislatures. In my state we are not a formal
organization but we are citizen advocates who make the effort to give the
legislature our ideas on bills they are considering.

For me it is worth it to take a day and go to the state capital to let the
house judiciary committee hear the perspective about what is happening to
families from parents. Too much of what the representatives hear is from
the state's CS bureaucrats, the State Attorney General, the state bar
association, the state circuit judge's association, the state district
attorney's association, and not enough of what parents think about the
process.

What Bob wrote is all too true. Give us more money, we really, really,
really need it. Taxpayers, what do you think? Silence.

Beverly:

Your ideas in theory make alot of sense.. and I agree with them,
however that said the practicalities of implementation is a totally
different story. Example of what I mean.

A freind of mine is in the service. Just prior to being shipped out
he did what most young servicemen do. Went out for a good time just
before. Well this good time involved alot of alchol by both him and
the lady he was with. And as a result they had sex.

As a result of this act she became pregnant. Well this is where it
gets complicated. From what I understand she attempted to track him
down, but only knowing his first name, a very common one at that, and
being out of the counrty in Iraq for a Tour of duty lasting over a
year. He was pretty much out of contact.

When he came home, he happen to find her number written on his desk,
so he gave her a call.. A complete chance, or to this day he would
still not know he is a father probably. Well now he has found out he
is a father, and is very good one at that. Tries every chance he gets
to be with his son, and pay his support and whatever else.. .

But here is the major flaw in the idea you present. What if the
woman is trying to locate the man activily? What is the time limit?
What if the guy goes out of his way not to be found?moves out of
state... many different ways for a man to hide. What choices does the
woman have then? Can she keep the child, and upon location of the
father ask for support, or can she get an abortion with out the
knowledge or consent of the father? (Which is the case now)

What if the father through no fault of his own does no about the
child till after the birth, and then requests to become part of the
childs life? Do to his name not being included anywhere, because he
did not give his consent early on, does he infact have rights to this
child?

To me current system is not perfect, but it is still fairly decent as
this whole problem of fathers complaining about being a father, and
wanting nothing to do with their child probably only affects approx
5-10% of all the fathers out there, and thats being genorous.

Another flaw in the idea... What if it's the wrong guy? Your whole
idea is also based upon the fact that the guy she is informing is 100%
the father. What if she had sex with a couple of different men over a
a couple of week period, as is her right, or should that right be
stripped from women to ensure they will know.

What if she informs a guy, and he denies to even ever sleeping with
her. And then a DNA test is completed, which has to wait till after
birth, or if it can be done in the womb, past the point where she would
be legally allowed to have an abortion. DNA test comes back, presto he
was right... he's not the father... what then. The guy who is the
real father let off the hook as he did not give his consent?

I would challenge people out there to poll fathers. Scientific,
random poll, done by a credible organization accross the counrty, and
ask them a simple question. Do you feel your rights are being
infringed upon, by leaving the descision to bring a child to term soely
up to the woman?

I'm willing to bet that your numbers will not come back very high.
As the average guy out there understands that the best precaution to a
child is not to have sex with a woman. And they have more important
issues to concern their time with.

SpiderHam77