Toddler pointing and imagination?

Thanks for your reply Pologirl. I get where you're coming from. In answer to
your question, his understanding of receptive language. He understands basic
commands such as "come here" "no" "not in your mouth" "do you want your cup"
etc, but if I said "get your shoes" he wouldn't have a clue. Compared to my
other 5 he is behind with his understanding.

Yvonne


"Pologirl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yvonne and Dan wrote:
Hi. I posted a couple of days ago due to being worried my son might be
autistic.

It is good to be observant and investigate things, but a waste of
emotional
energy to get worked up about maybe's.

He isn't walking and isn't talking.

Stephen is 17.5 mths old

I ran through the CHAT (checklist for autisum in toddlers) which the hv
does
at 18 mths and he failed everything.

You mean a CHAT like this:
http://depts.washington.edu/dataproj/chat.html

Okay, I'll apply the complete checklist to Monkey Boy at 17.5 months,
when
I decided to delay his 18 month checkup because he was not talking at
all.
I was a late talker (very late), and Monkey Boy has been late to start
doing
almost everything else. Once he starts doing something, he quickly
learns
to do it very well. By 19 months, at his well baby checkup, his
talking ability
had exploded to over 100 words, including numerous abstractions:
colors,
adjectives, articles, and pronouns.


Section A - Ask Parent:

Yes or No?

no__ 1) Does your child enjoy being swung, bounced on your knee, etc?

no__ 2) Does your child take an interest in other children?

yes_ 3) Does your child like climbing on things, such as up stairs?

no__ 4) Does your child enjoy playing peek-a-boo/hide-and-seek?

no__ *5) Does your child ever pretend, for example, to make a cup of
tea using a toy cup and teapot, or pretend other things?

no__ 6) Does your child ever use his/her index finger to point, to ask
for something?

no__ *7) Does your child ever use his/her index finger to point, to
indicate interest in something?

no__ 8) Can your child play properly with small toys (e.g. cars or
bricks) without just mouthing, fiddling, or dropping them?

MB never did mouth toys, nor drop them much, but I would not say at
17.5
months that he played "properly" with anything.

no__ 9) Does your child ever bring objects over to you, to show you
something?


Section B - GP's observation

Yes or No?
no?_ i) During the appointment, has the child made eye contact with
you?

MB usually is too busy crying and trying to avoid the
pediatrician(wielder
of needles etc.) to communicate with her.

no?_ *ii) Get child's attention, then point across the room at an
interesting object and say "Oh look! There's a (name a toy)!" Watch
child's face. Does the child look across to see what you are pointing
at?

NOTE - to record yes on this item, ensure the child has not simply
looked at your hand, but has actually looked at the object you are
pointing at.

I think not. We don't employ pointing at home, so there is no reason
to
expect MB to "get it" at the pediatrician's office.

no__ *iii) Get the child's attention, then give child a miniature toy
cup and teapot and say "Can you make a cup of tea?" Does the child
pretend to pour out the tea, drink it etc?

NOTE - if you can elicit an example of pretending in some other game,
score a yes on this item

no__ *iv) Say to the child "Where's the light?" or "Show me the light".
Does the child point with his/her index finger at the light?

NOTE - Repeat this with "Where's the teddy?" or some other unreachable
object, if child does not understand the word "light". To record yes on
this item, the child must have looked up at your face around the time
of pointing.

We do not point at things at home. If asked a question like this now,
MB
at 2y3mo would answer (if he responds) by looking and saying "over
there".


yes?_ v) Can the child build a tower of bricks? (If so, how many?)
(Number of bricks...)

* Indicates critical question most indicative of autistic
characteristics

MB only ever did this for a few weeks.


Please could you answer the following......

1) When did your toddler look in the direction you're pointing?

We rarely ever point at anything, so I have no answer for you except
maybe now, at 2y3mo. He is very verbal, so we direct him verbally:
"Do you see the kitty? Over there, by the tree, by the mailbox, the
kitty sitting in the grass?" Only recently has our directing gotten so
complex that we point: "Your car rolled behind the couch, there on
the left side". That's a bit much for a toddler to understand, so we
point and he is only now learning the rather abstract task of looking
where we point. He does better at looking where we are looking...
Ah, so we do point at things, but usually we point when we cannot
look at the thing directly: it is out of sight. We point to suggest a
position from which it might be seen.

2) When did your toddler learn to point to ask for something?

Never.

3) When did your toddler learn to point to show you something they are
interested in?

Never. He says "I like THAT! THAT! No! THAT!" while we prompt
him verbally for other clues. "That little car?" "No!" "That big red
telephone?" "Yes! That...tatoofoe...telefoe...THAT!"

4) When did your toddler first show imagination, pretend or involve in
make-believe play?

At about age 2.

5) When did your toddler say their first (none echolalic, parroting)
word?

At about 19 months.

6) Have any of your toddlers ever waved at inanimate objects (my son
waved at a parked motorbike)?

Yes, but rarely. He rarely waves at anything or anyone.

7) Have any of your toddlers learnt about pointing or talking later than
17.5 months yet still grown up to be healthy and normal?

Yes, so far.

Stephen at 17.5 months still does not understand the concept of pointing
and won't even look in the direction we're pointing at.

Do you point at things a lot? Do you have reason to think his vision
is
otherwise 100%?

Also he never pretends or does make-believe play.

He is really young for this, and this behavior probably cannot blossom
until after the child acquires good *expressive* language skills such
as
talking, signing, even grunting (if he lives with people who understand
grunts; my next door neighbor has a 3yo who can communicate well
with his older brother and parents entirely via grunts and meaningfull
looks).

We used to have parrot fashion speech but now he doesn't even do that?

That's not unusual. How is his *receptive* language? Does he show
signs of understanding much of what you say to him? Does he
express (in any manner) yes or no, or otherwise communicate with
you?

Thanks for your reply Anne. I think a mixture of structured play and free
play would be good at a toddler group. What is parachute play? I'm thinking
of taking Stephen to the library (they have short half hour story or bounce
and rhmn sessions twice a week) as well as a toddler group. If he plays up
we'll just leave.

Yvonne


"Pologirl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yvonne and Dan wrote:
Hi. I posted a couple of days ago due to being worried my son might be
autistic.

It is good to be observant and investigate things, but a waste of
emotional
energy to get worked up about maybe's.

He isn't walking and isn't talking.

Stephen is 17.5 mths old

I ran through the CHAT (checklist for autisum in toddlers) which the hv
does
at 18 mths and he failed everything.

You mean a CHAT like this:
http://depts.washington.edu/dataproj/chat.html

Okay, I'll apply the complete checklist to Monkey Boy at 17.5 months,
when
I decided to delay his 18 month checkup because he was not talking at
all.
I was a late talker (very late), and Monkey Boy has been late to start
doing
almost everything else. Once he starts doing something, he quickly
learns
to do it very well. By 19 months, at his well baby checkup, his
talking ability
had exploded to over 100 words, including numerous abstractions:
colors,
adjectives, articles, and pronouns.


Section A - Ask Parent:

Yes or No?

no__ 1) Does your child enjoy being swung, bounced on your knee, etc?

no__ 2) Does your child take an interest in other children?

yes_ 3) Does your child like climbing on things, such as up stairs?

no__ 4) Does your child enjoy playing peek-a-boo/hide-and-seek?

no__ *5) Does your child ever pretend, for example, to make a cup of
tea using a toy cup and teapot, or pretend other things?

no__ 6) Does your child ever use his/her index finger to point, to ask
for something?

no__ *7) Does your child ever use his/her index finger to point, to
indicate interest in something?

no__ 8) Can your child play properly with small toys (e.g. cars or
bricks) without just mouthing, fiddling, or dropping them?

MB never did mouth toys, nor drop them much, but I would not say at
17.5
months that he played "properly" with anything.

no__ 9) Does your child ever bring objects over to you, to show you
something?


Section B - GP's observation

Yes or No?
no?_ i) During the appointment, has the child made eye contact with
you?

MB usually is too busy crying and trying to avoid the
pediatrician(wielder
of needles etc.) to communicate with her.

no?_ *ii) Get child's attention, then point across the room at an
interesting object and say "Oh look! There's a (name a toy)!" Watch
child's face. Does the child look across to see what you are pointing
at?

NOTE - to record yes on this item, ensure the child has not simply
looked at your hand, but has actually looked at the object you are
pointing at.

I think not. We don't employ pointing at home, so there is no reason
to
expect MB to "get it" at the pediatrician's office.

no__ *iii) Get the child's attention, then give child a miniature toy
cup and teapot and say "Can you make a cup of tea?" Does the child
pretend to pour out the tea, drink it etc?

NOTE - if you can elicit an example of pretending in some other game,
score a yes on this item

no__ *iv) Say to the child "Where's the light?" or "Show me the light".
Does the child point with his/her index finger at the light?

NOTE - Repeat this with "Where's the teddy?" or some other unreachable
object, if child does not understand the word "light". To record yes on
this item, the child must have looked up at your face around the time
of pointing.

We do not point at things at home. If asked a question like this now,
MB
at 2y3mo would answer (if he responds) by looking and saying "over
there".


yes?_ v) Can the child build a tower of bricks? (If so, how many?)
(Number of bricks...)

* Indicates critical question most indicative of autistic
characteristics

MB only ever did this for a few weeks.


Please could you answer the following......

1) When did your toddler look in the direction you're pointing?

We rarely ever point at anything, so I have no answer for you except
maybe now, at 2y3mo. He is very verbal, so we direct him verbally:
"Do you see the kitty? Over there, by the tree, by the mailbox, the
kitty sitting in the grass?" Only recently has our directing gotten so
complex that we point: "Your car rolled behind the couch, there on
the left side". That's a bit much for a toddler to understand, so we
point and he is only now learning the rather abstract task of looking
where we point. He does better at looking where we are looking...
Ah, so we do point at things, but usually we point when we cannot
look at the thing directly: it is out of sight. We point to suggest a
position from which it might be seen.

2) When did your toddler learn to point to ask for something?

Never.

3) When did your toddler learn to point to show you something they are
interested in?

Never. He says "I like THAT! THAT! No! THAT!" while we prompt
him verbally for other clues. "That little car?" "No!" "That big red
telephone?" "Yes! That...tatoofoe...telefoe...THAT!"

4) When did your toddler first show imagination, pretend or involve in
make-believe play?

At about age 2.

5) When did your toddler say their first (none echolalic, parroting)
word?

At about 19 months.

6) Have any of your toddlers ever waved at inanimate objects (my son
waved at a parked motorbike)?

Yes, but rarely. He rarely waves at anything or anyone.

7) Have any of your toddlers learnt about pointing or talking later than
17.5 months yet still grown up to be healthy and normal?

Yes, so far.

Stephen at 17.5 months still does not understand the concept of pointing
and won't even look in the direction we're pointing at.

Do you point at things a lot? Do you have reason to think his vision
is
otherwise 100%?

Also he never pretends or does make-believe play.

He is really young for this, and this behavior probably cannot blossom
until after the child acquires good *expressive* language skills such
as
talking, signing, even grunting (if he lives with people who understand
grunts; my next door neighbor has a 3yo who can communicate well
with his older brother and parents entirely via grunts and meaningfull
looks).

We used to have parrot fashion speech but now he doesn't even do that?

That's not unusual. How is his *receptive* language? Does he show
signs of understanding much of what you say to him? Does he
express (in any manner) yes or no, or otherwise communicate with
you?

Thanks for your reply Anne. I think a mixture of structured play and free
play would be good at a toddler group. What is parachute play? I'm
thinking
of taking Stephen to the library (they have short half hour story or
bounce
and rhmn sessions twice a week) as well as a toddler group. If he plays up
we'll just leave.

parachute play is where the leaders and parents use a canvas circle about 3m
across to play various games and sing various songs. The children are
encouraged to join in too, but obviously they don't always do as you expect,
recently we were doing the grand old duke of york, with the idea that you
life the parachute up and down on the relevant words, my son marched all the
way round the room instead!

I wouldn't leave a group if he plays up, if he is upset and it is clearly
the whole group situation and the only way to calm him is to leave then do
that, but if he is just stretching boundaries, learning about the group,
making noises when you think he shouldn't etc. then stay, IF a group leader
doesn't want children to be children then you want to go to another group
anyway, but fairly much the only behavioural reason I'd take a child out of
a group is if they hurt another child and then after being told off they
then did it again. The library sounds nice, but get rid of your preconceived
ideas about libraries being quiet places, whilst this groups is being run,
it is not going to be, just imagine in your mind it is a story and rhyme
time but in a totally neutral venue, if you are inhibited by trying to keep
him quiet because you think he should be because it is a library then it is
going to be stressful for all concerned.

Cheers

Anne

Yvonne

You might want to post this in alt.mothers. There are a couple of people in there who have children with different degrees of autism, and I am sure they'd give you some advice...
"Yvonne and Dan" wrote in message ...
Hi. I posted a couple of days ago due to being worried my son might be autistic. The doctor is also worried and has refered him to a paediatrician specialising in autisum and a child psychologist. He isn't walking and isn't talking.

Stephen is 17.5 mths old and I ran through the CHAT (checklist for autisum in toddlers) which the hv does at 18 mths and he failed everything.

I have 5 older kids but the youngest of those is 8 years now so it's difficult to remember exact stages.

Please could you answer the following......

1) When did your toddler look in the direction you're pointing?
2) When did your toddler learn to point to ask for something?
3) When did your toddler learn to point to show you something they are interested in?
4) When did your toddler first show imagination, pretend or involve in make-believe play?
5) When did your toddler say their first (none echolalic, parroting) word?
6) Have any of your toddlers ever waved at inanimate objects (my son waved at a parked motorbike)?
7) Have any of your toddlers learnt about pointing or talking later than 17.5 months yet still grown up to be healthy and normal?

Stephen at 17.5 months still does not understand the concept of pointing and won't even look in the direction we're pointing at. Also he never pretends or does make-believe play. We used to have parrot fashion speech but now he doesn't even do that?

Also wondering if your children ever wave at objects rather than people? Stephen will wave at himself in the mirror but doesn't wave at us. The other day he waved at a motorbike that was just parked outside a shop. He loves motorbikes - seems strange to wave at an inanimate object doesn't it?

Yvonne