Man shoots at noisy teenagers, killing one

"Steve Furbish" wrote in message
...

"jaybird" wrote in message
...

Now I've never read much from these groups, but can anyone else tell me
if
this guy is serious or just loopy? I've never seen anyone as fascinated
by
death before.

I'm sure you've encountered his "type" though, haven't you? ;-)

On more occasions than a person should normally have to.

)

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:22:35 -0500, "Steve Furbish"
wrote:

I suppose that would be true to an extent, but speaking as one who was
indeed spanked on numerous occassions during my young childhood days for
various types of misbehavior I can attest that I never considered it to
be
dishonoring (probably because there was no one around like you to tell me
that I should?) and I pretty much always deserved it. I don't hate nor do
I
distrust my parents. I think that their teaching and guidance probably
saved
me from a lot of more serious grief later in life.

Otoh, if we're going to give out anecdotal evidence here....
I was also spanked. With a belt. Did I respect my dad and consider
it teaching and guidance? Hell no. I quite clearly remember thinking
to myself, "He *says* he loves me, but he's doing *this* to me???"
It didn't matter if I "deserved" punishment or not. Being hit wasn't
the only means to teach me, it's all my dad knew to use, as he lacked
the skills to use anything more complex. Hitting someone is easy.
Coming up with alternatives is much more difficult.

Did I hate him for it? For a time, yes. I realized he had no other
'tools' for dealing with us, and I forgave him. But I never respected
him.

Anecdotally you've made a good case and argument against excessive and/or
exclusive use of one form of discipline and I would not argue with you
there. Everyone seems to acknowledge that there IS a point where discipline
becomes abuse and everyone pretty much insist that their personal point of
tolerance is the proper one. Obviously there's more to the relationship that
existed between you and your dad than needs be explored here, but the one
obseervation that immediately stands out to me is that you don't seem to
have the bad manners and disrespectful attitude that Mr. Walz insisted must
result from all cases of physical discipline having been applied?

Steve

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:22:35 -0500, "Steve Furbish"
wrote:

I suppose that would be true to an extent, but speaking as one who was
indeed spanked on numerous occassions during my young childhood days for
various types of misbehavior I can attest that I never considered it to
be
dishonoring (probably because there was no one around like you to tell me
that I should?) and I pretty much always deserved it. I don't hate nor do
I
distrust my parents. I think that their teaching and guidance probably
saved
me from a lot of more serious grief later in life.

Otoh, if we're going to give out anecdotal evidence here....
I was also spanked. With a belt. Did I respect my dad and consider
it teaching and guidance? Hell no. I quite clearly remember thinking
to myself, "He *says* he loves me, but he's doing *this* to me???"
It didn't matter if I "deserved" punishment or not. Being hit wasn't
the only means to teach me, it's all my dad knew to use, as he lacked
the skills to use anything more complex. Hitting someone is easy.
Coming up with alternatives is much more difficult.

Did I hate him for it? For a time, yes. I realized he had no other
'tools' for dealing with us, and I forgave him. But I never respected
him.

I respect the hell out of my dad because I was a tough kid. I was hard
headed and stubborn. We did a lot together and he taught me many things
growing up but I always knew what the boundaries were and what the
punishment was for breaking the rules. Don't get me wrong, the immediate
punishment wasn't always the belt. That was the last straw. Leading up to
that was being grounded, extra chores, etc... I still did it as a kid will
to test the waters, got caught, and got punished. I still remember the
belt. I hated him then, as a kid would, and love him for it now. If I had
been allowed to run amuck and make my own decisions as a child of what I
thought I should do all the time, I'd be in the back seat of that patrol car
right now rather than the front.

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:33:47 -0500, "Steve Furbish"
wrote:

They are indeed fellow human beings, but in this age too many folks (my
opinion) place too much faith and effort on the respect breeds respect
theory. When it starts showing signs that it's not working there has to
be
an alternative to consider or those kids end up in the back seat of my
patrol car.

You sound a bit too jaded about humans. Given your line of work in
which you're going to have more contact with the "bad apples" of
society, that's understandable. But you're on a slippery slope when
you assume the ones that end up in your patrol car are the way they
are because they weren't subjected to corporal punishment.

Please understand that I've been both a cop and a father for nearly 25 years
now in a small community where we generally know our neighbors by sight if
not by name. I've seen both the best and the worst in people as a result of
my employment and although I do deal with the occassional "bad apples" more
often than not I'm dealing with simple human interactions during
stress-filled times. The repeat customers that end up in my back seat are
not always strangers. They're people I've known from very young ages and in
some cases people who's parents I grew up with. Police see people in all
sorts of roles. You assume that we don't know which kids come from which
types of parents, but consider that some of us coach little league, belong
to the PTA and are involved in various community programs outside our roles
as police officers. I may be jaded, but I'll acknowledge something that Mr
Walz seems unwilling to admit and that is that I don't have all the right
answers. Re-read what I said about who ends up in the back of my patrol car.
You'll likely see that you missed the part where I said "when that starts
showing signs of not working"? A lot of imperfect parents manage to raise
some pretty good kids and some parents that appear exemplary on the outside
manage to really muck things up. There's no magic formula as near as I can
tell and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who insist that others must
do it their way.

Steve

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:11:02 GMT, "jaybird" wrote:
Honestly no, not every one of them but the vast majority? Yes. We've
seen
it... we deal with it every day. Lack of discipline when a child is
young
leads to adults being in the back of our patrol cars every day. If a
child
hasn't been taught the difference between right and wrong and the
consequences of wrong when he's young, our justice system usually ends up
picking up task when it's too late.

You're still making huge leaps of logic. How does teaching a child
right from wrong automatically = corporal punishment?? That *is* what
you and Steven keep circling back around to.

No, it's really not. From this extreme side of the issue the "enemy" are
those who allow their kids to run amok without any discipline whatsoever -
Walz strikes me as that type. From your side of the issue the "enemy" seems
to be anyone who doesn't believe that you can always succeed with logic and
reason when dealing with a child's behavioral problems. In fact, we both
want the same things - well adjusted, well mannered descendants that we can
be proud of and who love us as we love them.

I'd be more inclined to think that the majority of the people you
encounter had uncaring parents, period. Not just parents that refused
to smack them around.

I think you'd be wrong. Most parents care, but we learn all too quickly that
kids don't come with instruction manuals. Even worse - they don't all
respond the same way to the same types of treatment. "Smack them around" is
a guaranteed arrest for DV these days, but parental discipline is not simply
a matter of smacking. We all know that.

In fact, I'd say that kids that get smacked
around are more likely to emulate such behavior.

You are quite correct. True abuse begets further abuse. It's indeed cyclic.
Yet just because some folks label all corporal punishment as abuse does not
make it so.

I certainly saw quite a bit of that, while working in a shelter for
battered women.

I'd love to tell you another anecdotal story about the tragic outcome of one
such abuse situation that occurred in my own family, but I'm really not at
liberty to go there. But inlaws and outlaws aside, you should realize that
this whole avoid spanking at all cost thing is fairly modern history and you
haven't begun to see the impact it'll have on rates of battered spouse
incidents. Certainly true abuse situations cannot be justified under any
circumstances, but if prior abuse were the only thing tha leads to future
abuse we could address it much more easily. Try explaining the male abuser
who controls and ultimately kills the woman he supposedly loves when he grew
up with no male influence in his life and no form of parental discipline
whatsoever. I knew that individual and I'll admit that I'm not up to the
task of explaining him.

Steve

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:03:10 -0500, "Steve Furbish"

Unfortunately Nan that's exactly what happens on occassion. Where do you
think we get road-rage incidents and neighborhood fistfights from? Bad
manners in the wrong place and under the wrong circumstances can get your
little precious beaten or killed. It's now more important than ever to
teach
your kids common manners and respect for others. I don't mean to suggest
that every incident of childhood misbehavior need be dealt with by
physical
punishment, but there comes a point when that lesson learned might
actually
save them from something much worse. Altercations between strangers are
something that cops get rather frequent exposure to and I can assure you
that the most common cases could be avoided with a little common
courtesy -
something a good parent must instill by whatever means works for them,
IMHO.

Steve

Puh-leeze. Bad manners has nothing to do with road rage, or any other
kind of rage. It has everything to do with one person not having any
idea how to control their angry impulses.

Oh really? So how many times have you interviewed a person arrested for a
road rage incident, Nan? I suspect that I might have a slight advantage
there, but perhaps not? I'm not a trained psychologist, but without
exception I hear from those that act on those angry impulses that they are
responses to some perceived disrespect. Like a child not getting their own
way these individuals play chicken with real lives and to hell with the
consequences. Often times the "victim" precipitated the events by committing
some minor violation or making some rude suggestion (I'm sure that you're
familiar with the most common of those).

We can go round and round about what the true common denominators in
assaultive rages are, but I can assure you that the one thing that both
sides of any neighborhood dispute, traffic dispute or domestic dispute
complain about is about the other party's lack of respect for their point of
view, rights, etc., A lack of respect that is exactly like that which was
being discussed when this thread first got X-posted to alt.law-enforcement.
Respect for those neighbors who had to work the next morning and should not
be expected to have to "enjoy" the 21 year old's music and revelry until
late evening hours. Respect that should have been learned early in
childhood, but was apparently eventually learned only after the experience
got personalized.

Whether or not I'm courteous to someone, or not, they're still going
to fly into a rage at some point.

Perhaps, but you can increase the odds of bad things happening by saying
and/or doing the wrong things. I'm not talking about taking a beating from
your father, husband, brother, etc., I'm talking about getting yourself
assaulted by a stranger because you insist on asserting your right to free
expression, including those acts and words with are commonly considered
rude. Sure the other guy is criminally responsible for his (or her)
overreaction to your words and deeds, but does that make it any less
dangerous to you if you're the victim? Were it all able to be avoided with
simple common courtesy shouldn't that be the path taken by the bigger
person? If you haven't taught your child about some people's lack of
tolerance then you've turned them loose on a much more dangerous world than
they might otherwise experience.

Steve

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:00 GMT, "jaybird" wrote:
Sure, he probably needed a little attitude adjustment.

Seems he ended up getting that attitude adjustment when he found
himself in the position she was trying to impart wisdom on.

Exactly! A little late, but he eventually "got it". He wasn't a bad kid -
just a bit selfish and rude. It didn't cost him, but it could have.

But people that want to jump in and punish don't have the ability to
realize that what goes around, eventually comes around, and a lesson
is learned there. Too many people want instant 'gratification' from
teaching a lesson.

I suppose you see no difference between a parent's loving motivations
(correcting rude/selfish behavior early in childhood) and the neighbor who
reaches his limit and decides to impart a little teaching of his own? I do
however. When people live in close proximity common respect and decency
isn't a luxury - it's a necessity. All the finger pointing in the world
won't be much consolation once adult sized violence begins between
strangers.

Steve

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:14:21 -0500, "Steve Furbish"
wrote:

Values are taught, but what works in one instance
does not necessarily work for others

Values can only be taught by example.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:14:21 -0500, "Steve Furbish"
wrote:

Punishment is an old concept whereby an individual
is held accountable for their actions and presumeably
learn from their mistakes.

It's all in that *presumably.*

Punishment teaches:
To be a slave to authority
or
To be a rebel without a cause
or
To be sneaky and get away with what you can.

Look around you and you can see the world dwelling on
punishment (and material rewards - the other side of the
behaviorist coin) have made.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:21:05 GMT, "jaybird" wrote:

He is a little over the top and quite hostile. For some reason people,
including you obviously from your comment, that discipline is somehow cruel
and inhumane. I think it's quite the contrary, but by today's society it
doesn't surprise me that there is an increase of people who think kids
should somehow police themselves. I can't think of a better way to sum it
up than the old saying: "Spare the rod, spoil the child".

Punishment (and material rewards) are not synonmymous with discipline.
Discipline is teaching. Mostly you teach by your own example. Do
what is right and your child will follow. Talk a good game, but do
what you know is wrong and your child will follow your actions, not
your words.

Now aside from that, yes, I think a child should be nurtured, educated,
socialized, and given the best they can possibly have. That's just a
different subject alltogether since this thread started with a loud-mouthed
disrespectful kid.

Most of the time, a child who is *loud-mouthed* is not being
disrespectful, but is expressing his or her feelings in an
inappropriate manner because s/he is too young to have
learned a better way. Teaching that better way is part of
your parenting job, but that does not mean suppressing the
feelings and saying that s/he cannot have them and cannot
express them.

Positive Parenting: the short post:

First and foremost, model the behavior you want your child
to emulate. Children learn what they live. Teach by example,
not words.

Second, assume your child is good even when he misbehaves.
Understand that his actions have an underlying developmental
reason.

Third, state your rules and requests in positive ways, not
negative ones. Redirect her to things she can do rather than
trying to keep her away from things without alternatives.

Fourth, explain. Make sure you have his attention. You may
need to go closer to him, to touch his shoulder, to look directly
in his eyes.

Fifth, always try to look for the underlying cause of the behavior
and address that so that the need is actually met in acceptable
ways. Give her choices between many things that are acceptable
to you

Sixth, give him warnings of transitions so that they become
easier to manage. Children, like adults, need to complete
activities they are absorbed in.

Seventh, allow for time-outs when your emotions or hers are
out of control. Time-outs can be used non-punitively to allow
both the adult and child to regain control of their emotions.
Teach her to count to 10, to breathe, to walk away by
modelling the techniques you use to manage your anger.

Eighth, say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't
give a lot of warnings, give one and then act. Give him
time to comply, but follow through.

Ninth, plan for situations before they arise. Try to stay calm
yourself. Allow her to vent her feelings and accept them.
..
Tenth, as your child grows, involve him in making the rules
and choosing the consequences for breaking them
Brainstorm and problem solve with him.

Eleventh, make amends when you make a mistake. Apologize
to your child when you have made a mistake. Accept her
apologies gracefully as well.

Twelfth, give your child responsibility for real tasks that help
make your family work, keeping the chores within his developmental
stage and allowing him input into what the chores should be and
when to do them.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits