Preparing sibling for birth process?

On Apr 14, 12:22*pm, Banty wrote:
In article ,
cjra says...







On Apr 14, 8:07 am, Beliavsky wrote:
On Apr 6, 4:45 pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote:

wrote:
On Mar 24, 9:09 am, Sarah Vaughan wrote:
wrote:

[...] So yes, a traditional
marriage of the "50's" where a woman is not selfish and is supportive
of her husband is much better than a modern marriage with a high
divorce rate.
[...]
As I understand it, the traditional marriages to which you refer have
two salient features:

1. One partner gives up their career, or their chance at having a
career, in order to take care of all the cleaning, cooking, and
childcare needs of the couple.

Ideally, one person should stay home with the children.

When they're young, yes. *That doesn't mean the entire job should fall
to a single person within the marriage. *For many marriages, it might
work very well for both partners to work part-time so that they can
split childcare between them. *Or for the two to alternate the time they
take off so that first one person takes a career break of a couple of
years, then the other.

The obvious problem is that working half the hours often means earning
less than 50% of the original income, because part-timers are much
less likely to progress within their organizations to positions of
greater responsibility and pay. It also shuts you out of certain high-
paying careers, such as investment banking or management consulting.
Often, a couple can maximize its income by having one spouse work full
time, and almost always that spouse is the husband, in part because
few men want to be full-time dads.

A woman can stay at home for a few years when the children are young
and resume her career later. I believe that's what, for example, Nancy
Pelosi (speaker of the House), mother of five, did.

A woman can do this no more than a man can. It isn't dependent upon
gender but on career. Some careers allow for time out, others don't.

Pelosi was amazingly well-connected politically to begin with. *You're right -
some careers can handle it, some can't (an academic career? *be ready to be
consigned to research associate!). *Some people can do it (connections in the
family), some can't. *It all depends.

Suffice to say we don't see very many people taking decades long sabbaticals for
other reasons more compelling than raising a family! *Else we'd see it much more
often.

A good friend of mine has a master's degree, but now that her kids are teens,
she's having a heck of a time reentering the market. *She's actually been asked
if she can be a receptionist! *She has a master's degree in administration and
military experience to boot. *But she's been raising two kids and working as a
high school tutor. *But it's not been *current* experience in her field, and
it's taken her out of forming connections. *And, no, this cant they tell you to
say about how householding has given wunnerful administrative and organizational
experience just doesn't wash in the real world - they've heard it a million
times.

Yup. DH and I have discussed this a lot lately. I have a PhD but am no
longer in academic research. Still, I've accepted that if I leave my
career for any length of time, I'll basically be giving it up. I do
have enough connections that I could probably do *something* if I
wanted to get back into my career field, just not at this level.

I'm kind of hoping that I can keep a minor lecturer position - part
time teaching/advising to stay 'active' in the field, just in case and
also because I do like it.

I am ok with giving it up if I have to though, provided we can
financially manage it. I love what I do and spent my life getting
here, but it's already not exactly what I'd prefer (ie I'm working in
the US instead of the tropics!) thanks to marrying, so quitting
altogether for kids is not that big of a step.

Heck - I worked in a well-known research lab for five years between college
(B.S.) and grad school. *I was one of the students on the search committee to
full academic positions at my grad school for our engineering department - in my
early '30s I would have myself been considered already too OLD to start in a
tenure track position!

In France there's actually a maximum age of ~35 (maybe younger) to
qualify for such a position. In the US it's not so strict, a nd I know
many older new faculty, but they're new only because they've more
recently moved into this field. They are very current and active in
it. They just did other stuff in their younger days.

On Apr 14, 11:49*am, "Jamie Clark" wrot

Letting your child play alone is a good thing too, as it helps stimulate her
own creativity and allows her to learn how to entertain herself. *

I meant to respond to this point as well - though DD is usually very
anxious to have us play with her, her play is very child-directed,
full of her own creativity. She shows us what she wants us to do, we
just go along with it.

So, stimulating her creativity is not a problem for her, she just
likes to have other people around while she's doing it. Even if she's
playing by herself, she wants you nearby. She's not particularly
clingy usually, but for example, if she's playing in the living room
and I walk into the kitchen (2 rooms away but connected), she
immediately comes over to join me. She might carry whatever she's
playing with, but she wants to make sure she's in my sight.

I don't know why this is. It just is. She's very independent in what
she wants to do, she just wants an audience ;-)

"cjra" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 11:49 am, "Jamie Clark" wrot

Letting your child play alone is a good thing too, as it helps stimulate
her
own creativity and allows her to learn how to entertain herself.

I meant to respond to this point as well - though DD is usually very
anxious to have us play with her, her play is very child-directed,
full of her own creativity. She shows us what she wants us to do, we
just go along with it.

So, stimulating her creativity is not a problem for her, she just
likes to have other people around while she's doing it. Even if she's
playing by herself, she wants you nearby. She's not particularly
clingy usually, but for example, if she's playing in the living room
and I walk into the kitchen (2 rooms away but connected), she
immediately comes over to join me. She might carry whatever she's
playing with, but she wants to make sure she's in my sight.

I don't know why this is. It just is. She's very independent in what
she wants to do, she just wants an audience ;-)

_______

It might well be because she is away from you all day, so she just wants to
be "sure of you," as Piglet said. Makes perfect sense to me.

Piglet sidled up to Pooh from behind.
"Pooh!" he whispered.
"Yes Piglet?"
"Nothing" said Piglet, taking Pooh's paw. I just wanted to be sure of you."
A. A. Milne

--

Jamie Clark

On Apr 14, 11:54 pm, "Jamie Clark" wrote:
"cjra" wrote in message

...
On Apr 14, 11:49 am, "Jamie Clark" wrot



Letting your child play alone is a good thing too, as it helps stimulate
her
own creativity and allows her to learn how to entertain herself.

I meant to respond to this point as well - though DD is usually very
anxious to have us play with her, her play is very child-directed,
full of her own creativity. She shows us what she wants us to do, we
just go along with it.

So, stimulating her creativity is not a problem for her, she just
likes to have other people around while she's doing it. Even if she's
playing by herself, she wants you nearby. She's not particularly
clingy usually, but for example, if she's playing in the living room
and I walk into the kitchen (2 rooms away but connected), she
immediately comes over to join me. She might carry whatever she's
playing with, but she wants to make sure she's in my sight.

I don't know why this is. It just is. She's very independent in what
she wants to do, she just wants an audience ;-)

_______

It might well be because she is away from you all day, so she just wants to
be "sure of you," as Piglet said. Makes perfect sense to me.

Piglet sidled up to Pooh from behind.
"Pooh!" he whispered.
"Yes Piglet?"
"Nothing" said Piglet, taking Pooh's paw. I just wanted to be sure of you."
A. A. Milne

yeah, that's probably very likely. Although oddly enough the times she
does become clingy have been when I've been with her 24/7. That said,
those are usually holiday times and we're travelling so the
environment is different.

On Apr 13, 10:05 pm, "toypup" wrote:
wrote in message

...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

We are not living In primitive conditions anymore and so we are not
constrained by them.


Never stated otherwise.


It exists. It tells women that they are doormats, maids and human
slaves if they stay home and/or take care of their husbands and
children. It also tells women that they are inferior and taken
advantage of when in fact, the realty was that women had/have a better
life and were more respected and valuable prior to and after feminism.

All you have to do is look to more traditional societies to see that women
are more often than not viewed as inferior to men. That view didn't begin
with the feminists.

A woman's life and value was always higher than a man's. One only has
to look at the events of the Titanic when it sank as proof.

Regards...

On Apr 14, 5:36 am, Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...





wrote in message
...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

This air conditioned office thing is just plain silly. There are female
soldiers, female firefighters, female ironworkers, female atheletes. Never mind
recent examples, we have Clara Barton working in hot battlefields, Jane Goodall
working and living in jungles.

I guess he imagines it's the women shouldn't swe..., um, perspire.

It's the woman-on-pedestal thing. It's the old expectation that she be an
object of admiration for physical looks, while fulfilling a limited set of
roles. That's long been confused with 'respect'.

Banty

No, not at all. Women, even today, make up the minority of the jobs
you describe. Respect is dying and putting your life on the line for
your wife and children. A married woman covered in a burka in
Afghanistan has more respect and value than an unwed single mother in
America. However, from the American's point of view, she is oppressed.

Regards...

On Apr 14, 8:17 am, cjra wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:05 am, "toypup" wrote:



wrote in message

...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

We are not living In primitive conditions anymore and so we are not
constrained by them.

but I agree entirely with the rest of
your statement. The point I was making was that the traditional 50s
marriage model was for the woman always to be the one who stayed home.
You may have meant the phrase 'traditional marriage of the 50s' in a
looser sense, in which case we may be talking at cross-purposes.

[...]

I could care less who stays home. However, I also think having
predetermined roles in place can avoid arguments and build and
maintain a healthy relationship. It is also important to note that
each role is equally important to the stability of the family. When my
wife stayed home, she wasn't seen as a maid (even though her friends
told her she was) and I didn't consider myself to be a walking ATM
machine. Both her and my role were equally important.

I do agree that someone should stay home with the child, if possible. I
also agree that both the role of provider and SAHP are equally important.

You know, I used to think this, and still hope that in a few years
when the bills are paid off, I can stay home because I *want* to.
However, after having my child in daycare for some 18 months now, I've
learned the value of it. She's really thriving, and though I am sure I
could teach her a lot, I can't provide 6 other kids of multiple ages
to play with her all day, every day and teach her things of their own,
nor do I have the experience of child-rearing for 25 years, as my
babysitter does, to guide me. DD really loves her daycare, and I
almost feel guilty when we're home alone on weekends because she has
just mom and dad instead of a bunch of kids to play with. Even if we
were to do playgroups, we wouldn't be able to do that 8 hrs/day
everyday.

As a mom - even one who's been around kids and helped rear others kids
all her adult life, I really turn to my babysitter for advice and
suggestions, as she's had so much more, and varied experience.

That is one of the most pathetic and sadist things I ever heard. I
hope you improve.

I personally prefer that I be home rather than DH. It's sort of a selfish
thing, because I want to see my kids grow up. I'm glad I have that choice.
I wonder if men would like the choice to be home sometimes.


Generally speaking, women like to stay home and men like to work
outside the home. It's a proven study.

My DH likes the idea in theory, but realizes he'd have a hard time
doing it in practice.

Probably not for the reasons you think.

Regards...

In article ,
says...

On Apr 14, 5:36 am, Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...





wrote in message
...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

This air conditioned office thing is just plain silly. There are female
soldiers, female firefighters, female ironworkers, female atheletes. Never mind
recent examples, we have Clara Barton working in hot battlefields, Jane Goodall
working and living in jungles.

I guess he imagines it's the women shouldn't swe..., um, perspire.

It's the woman-on-pedestal thing. It's the old expectation that she be an
object of admiration for physical looks, while fulfilling a limited set of
roles. That's long been confused with 'respect'.

Banty

No, not at all. Women, even today, make up the minority of the jobs
you describe. Respect is dying and putting your life on the line for
your wife and children. A married woman covered in a burka in
Afghanistan has more respect and value than an unwed single mother in
America. However, from the American's point of view, she is oppressed.


And you don't even realize you just said this to an unwed single mother in
America huh.

Banty

In article ,
says...

On Apr 14, 8:17 am, cjra wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:05 am, "toypup" wrote:



wrote in message

...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

We are not living In primitive conditions anymore and so we are not
constrained by them.

but I agree entirely with the rest of
your statement. The point I was making was that the traditional 50s
marriage model was for the woman always to be the one who stayed home.
You may have meant the phrase 'traditional marriage of the 50s' in a
looser sense, in which case we may be talking at cross-purposes.

[...]

I could care less who stays home. However, I also think having
predetermined roles in place can avoid arguments and build and
maintain a healthy relationship. It is also important to note that
each role is equally important to the stability of the family. When my
wife stayed home, she wasn't seen as a maid (even though her friends
told her she was) and I didn't consider myself to be a walking ATM
machine. Both her and my role were equally important.

I do agree that someone should stay home with the child, if possible. I
also agree that both the role of provider and SAHP are equally important.

You know, I used to think this, and still hope that in a few years
when the bills are paid off, I can stay home because I *want* to.
However, after having my child in daycare for some 18 months now, I've
learned the value of it. She's really thriving, and though I am sure I
could teach her a lot, I can't provide 6 other kids of multiple ages
to play with her all day, every day and teach her things of their own,
nor do I have the experience of child-rearing for 25 years, as my
babysitter does, to guide me. DD really loves her daycare, and I
almost feel guilty when we're home alone on weekends because she has
just mom and dad instead of a bunch of kids to play with. Even if we
were to do playgroups, we wouldn't be able to do that 8 hrs/day
everyday.

As a mom - even one who's been around kids and helped rear others kids
all her adult life, I really turn to my babysitter for advice and
suggestions, as she's had so much more, and varied experience.

That is one of the most pathetic and sadist things I ever heard. I
hope you improve.

How on earth is that "pathetic" or "sad"??

One person seeks advice from another person who is very experienced in the
matter. Has been happening since people were on the planet.

Your mother never discussed anything with a neighbor over coffee?



I personally prefer that I be home rather than DH. It's sort of a selfish
thing, because I want to see my kids grow up. I'm glad I have that choice.
I wonder if men would like the choice to be home sometimes.


Generally speaking, women like to stay home and men like to work
outside the home. It's a proven study.

Good - then you can give us a cite to that study.

Banty

On Apr 19, 5:38 am, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...





On Apr 14, 5:36 am, Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...

wrote in message
...

I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which
men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The
jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want
to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day
where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a
button, women will jump on that opportunity.

And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she
wants to do it, why not?

This air conditioned office thing is just plain silly. There are female
soldiers, female firefighters, female ironworkers, female atheletes. Never mind
recent examples, we have Clara Barton working in hot battlefields, Jane Goodall
working and living in jungles.

I guess he imagines it's the women shouldn't swe..., um, perspire.

It's the woman-on-pedestal thing. It's the old expectation that she be an
object of admiration for physical looks, while fulfilling a limited set of
roles. That's long been confused with 'respect'.

Banty

No, not at all. Women, even today, make up the minority of the jobs
you describe. Respect is dying and putting your life on the line for
your wife and children. A married woman covered in a burka in
Afghanistan has more respect and value than an unwed single mother in
America. However, from the American's point of view, she is oppressed.

And you don't even realize you just said this to an unwed single mother in
America huh.

Banty

Then you should have first hand experience of what I am saying. It's
you and your child. No one to help you in life. No one to put their
life on the line for you and your child. You were some guy's temporary
toilet. Your level of respect and value is the same as of that toilet.
You go girl!

Regards...