Historical Perspectives on Corporal Punishment

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child?



Carlson LaVonne wrote:
There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Greegor wrote:
Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?

Naw, you've had a much more colorful life. LaVonne is boring. Sameo
Sameo. Grow up, get married, go to school, get a degree, get another
one, raise a couple of daughters that turned out great, teach teachers.

Booooring.

I mean, sheeess....you can't make a blockbuster movie out of that kind
of story.

Now you on the other hand......

Do you believe that you were abused as a child?

Do you believe that your childhood abuse was the cause of me having the
opportunity to ask this question?

Were you convicted in Iowa of one or was it two domestic violence
violations? Or was it domestic abuse? Darn, I'll have to go look it up
again unless you'll tell us.

How much time did you spend in jail?

Now LaVonne DOES get more interesting when she shares some of her
knowledge. As she did below and you wish to hide from.

Must drive you nuts to know that so many wish to be kind and gentle with
children, eh?

This stuff below is a "Keeper" in my book.

0:-




Carlson LaVonne wrote:
There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

0:- wrote:

Greegor wrote:

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?


Naw, you've had a much more colorful life. LaVonne is boring. Sameo
Sameo. Grow up, get married, go to school, get a degree, get another
one, raise a couple of daughters that turned out great, teach teachers.

Booooring.

I mean, sheeess....you can't make a blockbuster movie out of that kind
of story.

Gee, my life is more boring that even I had imagined (grin)! Oh, I also
have two dogs and two cats -- would that help towards the blockbuster movie?

LaVonne

Now you on the other hand......

Do you believe that you were abused as a child?


Do you believe that your childhood abuse was the cause of me having the
opportunity to ask this question?

Were you convicted in Iowa of one or was it two domestic violence
violations? Or was it domestic abuse? Darn, I'll have to go look it up
again unless you'll tell us.

How much time did you spend in jail?

Now LaVonne DOES get more interesting when she shares some of her
knowledge. As she did below and you wish to hide from.

Must drive you nuts to know that so many wish to be kind and gentle with
children, eh?

This stuff below is a "Keeper" in my book.

0:-




Carlson LaVonne wrote:

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Greegor,

Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting
with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries?

Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information,
and the more exposure the better.

LaVonne

Greegor wrote:

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child?



Carlson LaVonne wrote:

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Carlson LaVonne wrote:
Greegor,

Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting
with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries?

Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information,
and the more exposure the better.

LaVonne

LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's
and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious.

Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to with
either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your
experience prejudices you."

Isn't it cute when they do this?

When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated."

The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker

0:-]




Greegor wrote:

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child?



Carlson LaVonne wrote:

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

"Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message
...
There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not
hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by
current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Nothing in that about Plato being a non-CP parent.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching
with kindness and love.

In the 14th and 15th centuries harsh punishment was a whipping (with an
actual horse whip), blindings, brandings, and other things that in this day
would be considered torture.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an
aversion to learning.

History proved him wrong.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

Belief, unsupported by fact. Might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

Many? How about the "vast majority" didn't didn't follow this advice? At
least that would be accurate. Historically spanking was attached to
religious belief's by such terms as "Spare the rod and spoil the child", and
since the vast majority of people prior to the industrial revolution held
strong religious convictions of one type or another they followed their
religious teachings. By comparison, your theories are "put forth by a few
radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries".

Ron

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

0:- wrote:

Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Greegor,

Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting
with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries?

Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information,
and the more exposure the better.

LaVonne


LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's
and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious.

Lordy, did I miss it again?

Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to with
either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your
experience prejudices you."

Isn't it cute when they do this?

It really is cute, but it's also incredibly obvious, don't you think?

When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated."

Well of course, if it's not a lack of experience, it's personal
experience. If it's not a lack of knowledge, then it must be too much
knowledge. But don't forget diversion. When one runs out of illogical
strategies, there's always diversion.

The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker

Hey, I like them. Without them, we would have no way to point out the
lack of logic in their debate strategies.

By the way, have you seen Greegor's hypothesis and research design yet
(grin)? This had to be one of the best, and I can't wait to see the
study Greegor has designed.

LaVonne

0:-]




Greegor wrote:

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child?



Carlson LaVonne wrote:

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical
idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed
and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and
punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched,
that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Ron,

I was referring to views of childhood throughout history. When you talk
about Plato and non-CP parenting, this is ridiculous. This term wasn't
even around in 427-347 B.C. The point was the changing and conflicting
views on the nature of children and how children best learn, grow, and
develop. The idea of children who are born evil and who must be
punished in order to break the will of the child has been contested in
many forms for centuries. Plato believed children were born good.

None of the theorists and philosophers I mentioned below have been
"proven wrong." They were theorists and philosophers. Early childhood
research did not exist at that time, so there was no research to
replicate, and no way to prove them wrong. Many of their ideas are
apparent when you walk into any early childhood classroom, which I do daily.

Current research has incorporated the ideas of Plato (use of questioning
and acceptance of response) Comenius (a teaching environment free of
pain and fear), Pestalozzi (Children learn and respond best when
individuals realize that children want to please. Punishment can create
an aversion to learning). Portions of Froebel's kindergarten (child
garden) are still around today.

These individuals weren't tooth fairies. These individuals were
pioneers in a kind and respectful view of children.

When you walk into an early childhood classroom and hear a teacher
questioning a children about their ideas, about why they think what they
do, and why, this goes back to Plato.

When you walk into an early childhood classroom and watch the teacher
incorporate knowledge of the natural environment, think Rouseau. When
you see a teacher use manipulatives to help children learn concepts of
math, think Froebel. And when you see an early childhood teacher kindly
using a picture book, think Comenius (Pictus Orbis). He wrote the first
recorded picture book for children.

We now have research that provides us with more concrete knowledge about
how children best learn, grow, and develop. This did not exist in the
centuries of the theorists and philosophers mentions below. But, it is
absolutely fascinating to trace history, and realize that so much of
what we now know had roots in those early philosophers.

I don't know what you know about educational iconography. This is a
visual description of how children have been viewed over the ages. You
may find it interesting.

I don't know why this struck such a nerve with you. I provided one
reference, which you may find interesting. Here are three classics that
you can probably acquire through Amazon, if you so desire.

Wishey, B. ((1977). The child and the republic. Thge down of modern
American child nurture. University of Pennsylvania Press.

Aries,P. (I don't have the date). Centuries of childhood: A social
history of family life. (translated from the French by Robert Baldick).
This book is an absolute classic, hard to get anymore, but one of the
best researched books on the history of children you will ever find.

deMause, L. (1974). The history of childhood. Harper Torchbooks.

The idea of kindness in teaching and parenting, and the idea of
children's innate goodness has been around for centuries. This is what
I hoped to illustrate in my post.

LaVonne

Ron wrote:

"Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message
...

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not
hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by
current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.


Nothing in that about Plato being a non-CP parent.


Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching
with kindness and love.


In the 14th and 15th centuries harsh punishment was a whipping (with an
actual horse whip), blindings, brandings, and other things that in this day
would be considered torture.


Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an
aversion to learning.


History proved him wrong.


Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.


Belief, unsupported by fact. Might as well believe in the tooth fairy.


While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st
centuries.


Many? How about the "vast majority" didn't didn't follow this advice? At
least that would be accurate. Historically spanking was attached to
religious belief's by such terms as "Spare the rod and spoil the child", and
since the vast majority of people prior to the industrial revolution held
strong religious convictions of one type or another they followed their
religious teachings. By comparison, your theories are "put forth by a few
radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries".

Ron


If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne

Carlson LaVonne wrote:


0:- wrote:

Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Greegor,

Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting
with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries?

Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information,
and the more exposure the better.

LaVonne


LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's
and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious.

Lordy, did I miss it again?

Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to
with either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your
experience prejudices you."

Isn't it cute when they do this?

It really is cute, but it's also incredibly obvious, don't you think?

When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated."

Well of course, if it's not a lack of experience, it's personal
experience. If it's not a lack of knowledge, then it must be too much
knowledge. But don't forget diversion. When one runs out of illogical
strategies, there's always diversion.

The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker

Hey, I like them. Without them, we would have no way to point out the
lack of logic in their debate strategies.

By the way, have you seen Greegor's hypothesis and research design yet
(grin)? This had to be one of the best, and I can't wait to see the
study Greegor has designed.

"It's in the mail?"

"The dog ate it?"

"Alina has a copy?"

"Doan is proofreading it?"

Nope. Nothing so far. 0:-]



LaVonne

0:-]




Greegor wrote:

Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child?



Carlson LaVonne wrote:

There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical
idea
by current dishonest and rabid cultists.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of
plasticity and innate goodness.

Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed
that
children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated
teaching with kindness and love.

Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined
through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned
against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop
an aversion to learning.

Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being
observed and
gently guided, rather than by being punished.

While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in
Colonial
America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history
that
the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and
punishment is
not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and
21st
centuries.

If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to
present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early
childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey.

There are several other excellent resources, all well researched,
that I
can provide if anyone is interested.

LaVonne









--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)