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  #11  
Old December 1st 06, 03:05 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Louise
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Posts: 19
Default fidgety kids

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:03:05 EST, "Chris" wrote:


Jeff wrote:

It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
should be going to an advanced class.


We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available.


I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.

They might not always live up to the IEP completely, but it seems a
very useful thing to have on one's side.


Louise

  #12  
Old December 1st 06, 05:00 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Rosalie B.
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Posts: 984
Default fidgety kids

"Chris" wrote:

Just one comment - well two actually.

I know teachers that are unwilling to do anything extra. They may be
just lazy, or set in their ways, or it may be that they are
overstressed by the climate in the school or by current testing stuff.

This may be where you will have to take charge of the boredom problem
(Does he say that he is bored? - It sounds like he is.) by asking the
teacher how either you or he can help them. Can he tutor the other
students? Can he prepare a presentation for the class? That kind of
thing.

Think of ways that his attention can be engaged in class without any
(or very little) teacher input. Ask him what he'd like to find out
about in various classes. Instead of asking the teachers to give him
extra work, have him suggest extra work that he can do.

[When I was in 6th grade, I found that if the teacher thought I knew
the answer she wouldn't call on me in class. So I could read a book
under my desk with impunity provided that I kept raising my hand to
answer questions. Counterwise, if I really wanted to be called on, I
had to pretend not to be paying attention.]

Jeff wrote:


major snippage
He should also be outside, playing with
his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be in
the house.

He is
plenty busy. He doesn't really like too many sports, especially team
sports.

None of his teachers have ever suggested ADD as a diagnosis, but maybe
that's because he doesn't really get in trouble and when a teacher asks


I had one like that.

Given the additional information you've provided, IMH and completely
uninformed O, I don't think that he has ADD either. I think what he
needs is not so much a SPORT as an aerobic activity like swimming or
running or biking on a regular basis. This would be good for his
health and would tend (IME) to calm him down a bit and he could do it
more or less alone.


grandma Rosalie

  #13  
Old December 1st 06, 05:01 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Jeff
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Posts: 780
Default fidgety kids


"Chris" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jeff wrote:

It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should
talk
to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
should be going to an advanced class.


We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available. He's
already young for his current grade, and I don't really want to have
him advanced. Plus, I don't think my son is the only one who could
benefit from more challenging work. Second, anytime that more
challenging work is given it is usually of the form "write about x."
My son really does not like to write, so that never works! Frankly,
what incentive do teachers have to tailor their lessons for him? None,
except goodwill.

During the conference his science teacher said, 'E's test scores were
94, 100, 104, and 98, but the other day when we were working on
something I looked over to see E just reading a book." So, to me, as a
parent I'm thinking what's the problem here? He clearly knows the
material and is choosing to make better use of his time! Why should
that bother the teacher? But she sees this as a sign of disrespect.


2) Your son is not able to sit still. He should learn to join the family
and
eat with the family sitting down.


He joins us for dinner and is an "active" participant in the
conversation, he'd just rather not sit down! He loves to help cook and
prepare meals.


Does he sit down at a restaurant or house of worship or college basketball
game?

He should be recreational activities like
reading, listening to music and using the computer sitting down. His
recreational use of computers, TV watching and video games should be
limited
to two hours a day (or even less). He should also be outside, playing
with
his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be
in
the house.

He is a little heavy on the video time, I'll admit. We have talked
about limiting that more or using it as a "reward" for good behavior.

But, he was elected to student council, was elected treasurer of the
6th grade chorus, has a lead role in the MS musical, is in chorus, band
and jazz band, is working on his black belt in TaeKwonDo, plays chess
in local and national tournaments, and takes piano lessons. He is
plenty busy. He doesn't really like too many sports, especially team
sports.

None of his teachers have ever suggested ADD as a diagnosis, but maybe
that's because he doesn't really get in trouble and when a teacher asks
him to stay on task he does, at least for a while. He does not enjoy
working in groups--he thinks they slow him down, and he takes a little
pride in being different or "quirky." Some teachers like this, others
don't.

I guess I'm torn between thinking he is just a bright kid who has
trouble controlling himself and thinking there are more serious
underlying problems.


The plot thickens.

ADHD was the first thing that popped in my head. It's possible. It might be
worth having the school psychologist evaluate him. However, from the
acitvities he participates in, it doesn't sound like it.

I do think there are underlying problems. From your description, they seem
to be mostly with the school.

The school and teachers should be doing something called differential
education. They should be teaching in such a way that the abilities and
interests of all the kids are engaged, not just a few. Clearly, from your
description, they aren't doing that.

I agree with Laurie about getting an IEP for your son. Sounds like a good
idea. However, if you can get him the services he deserves (e.g., gift
tutorials), that may also help him stay on task more in the regular classes.
I think the school really needs to look at your son as child with abilities
to develop,

You might also transfer him to another school. But it sounds like you would
be giving up too many activities for your son. And private school might not
be worth the cost.

I bet there is a school of education near where you are. You might even
consider hiring some of the students in the school to tutor your son for
enrichment classes or something like that.

The other thing that might help is to provide him with a system whereby he
is rewarded for working in groups. They slow him down. So what? In real
life, after school, he will have to work in small groups, whether it is
working as a member of a team at Walmart or as a member of thesis committee
as a college professor. He may actuallly round out his education by helping
the members of his group. He has obviously taken on some leadership roles
with larger groups. Doing the same thing with smaller groups may have great
benefits, as well.

The above paragraph assumes that he isn't doing what he is supposed to do in
small groups. He may do what he is supposed to do, but just doesn't like it.
Kind of like in real life, too.

Jeff

It sounds to me that you need to bring the school and teachers in on this
one. You probably want to set up a behavioral plan with the help of the
school's guidance counseler or AP, his teachers and himself. This plan
should have specific rewards as well as expectations.

Solving problem #1 should help problem #2, but there seperate problems.

Plus, if you live near a major university with a medical school, you
might
make an appoint with some educational psychologists or pediatric
pyschologists for some additional ideas.

Jeff





Chris



  #14  
Old December 3rd 06, 06:53 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
[email protected]
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Posts: 10
Default fidgety kids


Louise wrote:


I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.


Unfortunately, this is not always true for gifted children. In the
US, a child with a disability is entitled to a Free and Appropriate
Public Education by federal law. Giftedness is not considered a
disability under this law. A gifted child may or may not have rights
under state law, but is entitled to nothing under federal law. Some
states write IEPs for gifted, others do not. Especially with the
advent of NCLB, many schools do not have the resources to do anything
they are not legally required to do for gifted kids, who are already
not "left behind" according to that law. Accordingly, many gifted
children learn nothing in school, with the full support of the state
and the school board and federal law.

--Robyn

  #15  
Old December 4th 06, 02:09 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Louise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default fidgety kids

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:53:59 EST, wrote:


Louise wrote:


I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.


Unfortunately, this is not always true for gifted children. In the
US, a child with a disability is entitled to a Free and Appropriate
Public Education by federal law. Giftedness is not considered a
disability under this law. A gifted child may or may not have rights
under state law, but is entitled to nothing under federal law. Some
states write IEPs for gifted, others do not. Especially with the
advent of NCLB, many schools do not have the resources to do anything
they are not legally required to do for gifted kids, who are already
not "left behind" according to that law. Accordingly, many gifted
children learn nothing in school, with the full support of the state
and the school board and federal law.


I'm sorry to be wrong, then. And I'm especially sorry for the kids
who do get "left behind" because their schools aren't providing
appropriate educations for them.


Louise

  #16  
Old December 4th 06, 07:01 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Paula
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default fidgety kids

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:09:27 EST, Louise
wrote:

I'm sorry to be wrong, then. And I'm especially sorry for the kids
who do get "left behind" because their schools aren't providing
appropriate educations for them.


It's hard because there isn't enough money given to the schools to
differentiate education for everyone. Although I have gifted
children, I am more concerned about those who are falling behind. I
have told my kids that it is their responsibility to enrich their
educational experiences if they are ahead or bored. I work with the
teachers on coming up with things they can do that are acceptable to
him or her should they be bored. It is easier to entertain yourself
quietly than it is to teach yourself math, for example, so if the
teacher has to spend more time with the ones who aren't getting it,
that's the way it has to be. I think if the OP explained to the
teacher that the child wanted to read when bored but that the parent
wanted to make sure it was not coming across as disrespectful, they
could probably find a way.

Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
numerous boring meetings?

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

  #17  
Old December 5th 06, 02:24 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Caledonia
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Posts: 255
Default fidgety kids


Louise wrote:
On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:03:05 EST, "Chris" wrote:


Jeff wrote:

It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
should be going to an advanced class.


We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available.


I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
needs.


I don't know how other states do things, but I know here the goal is
'least restrictive environment' to attain educational goals.

If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.


Do they have IEPs for gifted students (w/o disabilities that are
impairing their academic progress) where you are?

They might not always live up to the IEP completely, but it seems a
very useful thing to have on one's side.


Actually, the accomodations that are required in the IEP are, afaik,
required. It's not a case of 'living up to it' or not. There's a lot of
waffling and tossing the funding back-and-forth for out-of-district
placements and other high-dollar items, since there's a large price tag
associated with these services (e.g., a residential placement can be
upwards of $200,000/year for a kid), and many parents (and voters) are
unclear that this is mandatory, not an optional service.

Caledonia

  #18  
Old December 5th 06, 02:02 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Louise
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Posts: 19
Default fidgety kids

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:24:22 EST, "Caledonia"
wrote:

If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /

handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.


Do they have IEPs for gifted students (w/o disabilities that are
impairing their academic progress) where you are?


Yes. My sister had one from 1979 (Grade 3) to 1990 (Grade 13). I was
ten years older and envious as anything, particularly about the way
that the program reviews included the child.

Louise

  #19  
Old December 5th 06, 07:44 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
Chris
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Posts: 23
Default fidgety kids


Paula wrote:

Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
numerous boring meetings?


That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.

there is no requirement for gifted education, and in fact our school
district has come out quite strongly against any "special treatment" of
advanced kids, even before NCLB.

But beyond the "boredness" there is a distinct issue of fidgeting that
may be related to the boredom, but seems distinct in some ways. I
think the suggestions about limiting videos and increasing physical
activity, as well as possibly looking at his diet are good ideas that I
haven't really thought of as seriously as I probably should have.

chris

  #20  
Old December 5th 06, 10:29 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
[email protected]
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Posts: 10
Default fidgety kids


Paula wrote:
Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
numerous boring meetings?


It is a life skill, but it isn't something that kids should be expected
to practice for hours every day. I don't send my kids to school to
learn how to pretend they're paying attention when they're really not.


I get that there isn't enough funding to help everyone, but there are
things that can be done or allowed that don't cost anything, and yet
are still not available to most gifted kids.

Grade or subject acceleration (grade skipping or going to another
classroom for a particular subject) are free.

Allowing a child to read quietly during lessons he has mastered is
free. If that is distracting to other students, let him go to the
library to read!

There are numerous ideas for gifted education in the book "Teaching
Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom" by Susan Winebrenner that require
a little of a teacher's time, but no additional funding.

Kids can be allowed to do alternate work (not more, but more
appropriate) that might be provided by their parents if the teachers
don't have the time to find appropriate work to provide. Again this is
free.

Using gifted kids as tutors for other kids needs to be approached
carefully, IMO. It risks making the child seem even more different to
his/her peers, and sets them apart in a way that becomes socially
uncomfortable. Some experience teaching is probably good for many
kids, but again, it shouldn't be the only thing they do all day.

Schools who refuse to give advanced kids any special treatment are
doing them a huge disservice. It is unreasonable to send a child to
school for 7 hours per day year after year and have them not learn
anything other than how to be bored without showing it. If we turn
these kids off of learning at a young age, I'd argue that we have also
done society a disservice.

--Robyn

 




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