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The Question, again
A punishing predicament
Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists Sunday, February 19, 2006 Mark Ellis THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH (S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters, 39. ''He was touring the city in his car." The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without permission. The enforcer: Dad's belt. ''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was hardheaded." As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a last resort. Many other Americans do, too. Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S. parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal punishment. In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family Studies in San Francisco. The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child. Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of discipline. In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical punishment. The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the groups haven't told parents never to spank their children. Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to those older than 3 and younger than 13. Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice. Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne. He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when there's no other means to rectify the problem." "It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed, and then here come the tears." His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time. Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on discussing problems and modeling behavior. "A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him," she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned, willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they will do as you ask because they love you." A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is acceptable. "We're admitting we don't know what else to do." Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert Fathman said. A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore "that benefits the injured party." The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them clean his car as punishment. Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment. "Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said. As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least immediately effective. Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family Research Laboratory. "The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.' Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a child's hand, they almost always stop. "Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers lack control of their behavior. "In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and parent." As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical punishment suffer depression as adults. Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are "the lucky ones." Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions. He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful. "Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order to create a memory," he said. Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10. "If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not working." It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent defiance," Rosemond said. "Cool yourself down." The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand begins to sting while spanking should stop. A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said. They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by parents who interpret the Bible literally. "The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain." |
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Kane shows his STUPIDITY, again The Question, again
Did you bother to read the Copyright notice, ignoranus kane0? ;-) http://www.dispatch.com/features-sto...219-H1-00.html Copyright@2006, The Columbus Dispatch, Reproduction prohibited Doan On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: A punishing predicament Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists Sunday, February 19, 2006 Mark Ellis THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH (S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters, 39. ''He was touring the city in his car." The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without permission. The enforcer: Dad's belt. ''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was hardheaded." As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a last resort. Many other Americans do, too. Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S. parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal punishment. In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family Studies in San Francisco. The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child. Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of discipline. In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical punishment. The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the groups haven't told parents never to spank their children. Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to those older than 3 and younger than 13. Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice. Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne. He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when there's no other means to rectify the problem." "It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed, and then here come the tears." His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time. Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on discussing problems and modeling behavior. "A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him," she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned, willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they will do as you ask because they love you." A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is acceptable. "We're admitting we don't know what else to do." Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert Fathman said. A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore "that benefits the injured party." The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them clean his car as punishment. Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment. "Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said. As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least immediately effective. Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family Research Laboratory. "The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.' Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a child's hand, they almost always stop. "Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers lack control of their behavior. "In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and parent." As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical punishment suffer depression as adults. Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are "the lucky ones." Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions. He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful. "Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order to create a memory," he said. Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10. "If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not working." It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent defiance," Rosemond said. "Cool yourself down." The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand begins to sting while spanking should stop. A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said. They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by parents who interpret the Bible literally. "The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain." |
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The Question, again
On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:
The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert Fathman said. A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore "that benefits the injured party." The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them clean his car as punishment. Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment. Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know him, Kane? ;-) So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning a car is better than spanking! Doan |
#4
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The Question, again
Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? Where is your line, Doan? Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert Fathman said. A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore "that benefits the injured party." By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read that post. How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are. The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them clean his car as punishment. Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment. Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know him, Kane? ;-) I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly schoolboy challenges. I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio? So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning a car is better than spanking! Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are any indication. Where would you find that as a general rule, all anti-spanking advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other punishments are warranted? Doan Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part. It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow. Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it. You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that? No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought at she would trust you. 0:- Kane |
#5
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!CORRECTIONS! The Question, again
[[[ Repeat of prior message, with small typographical errors corrected,
in CAPS ]]] Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? Once upon a time you made the argument, (AND YES I HAVE THE POST HANDY) when CPS followed a judge's orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? Where is your line, Doan? Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert Fathman said. A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore "that benefits the injured party." By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read that post. How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are. The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them clean his car as punishment. Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment. Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know him, Kane? ;-) I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly schoolboy challenges. I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio? So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning a car is better than spanking! Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are any indication. Where would you find that as a general rule; THAT all anti-spanking advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other punishments are warranted? Doan Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part. It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow. Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it. You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that? No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought at LEAST she would trust you. 0:- Kane -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
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The Question, again
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter. So what did the judge think? Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it. Where is your line, Doan? It's where "reasonable" people say it is? Doan |
#7
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The Question, again
Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter. So what did the judge think? Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it. You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging. Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents? Where is your line, Doan? It's where "reasonable" people say it is? I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct conflict with each other. You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they don't all agree? Doan What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally believe is reasonable. 0:- -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#8
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The Question, again
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter. So what did the judge think? Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it. You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging. One more time, I don't comment on this case unless I have all the information. I am not going to second-guess the judge in this case. Give me the court transcript; point out to me where he erred. Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents? The burden of proof is on you. You are saying that the judge is wrong then prove it! Where is your line, Doan? It's where "reasonable" people say it is? I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct conflict with each other. Exactly! In some places, the speed limit is 15mph, in others it's 55mph! Got it? You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they don't all agree? Yes! We can be "reasonable" without agreeing. I though beccafromlalaland already told you that! ;-) Doan What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally believe is reasonable. What I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is my business! Why do you always want to stick your nose into other people' asses? So that you can tell them that it stinks? ;-) Doan |
#9
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The Question, again
Doan wrote: On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone. He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a teacher. The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks. So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-) So do you think he did? It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter. So what did the judge think? Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority. Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt? I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it. You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging. One more time, I don't comment on this case unless I have all the information. You seem quite willing to do in other instances where you lack "all the information." Why so reluctant in this one? And you make demands that others make such judgements without them having all the information...some of which it's found later YOU deliberately withheld. Why do you do those things I wonder? I am not going to second-guess the judge in this case. Sure you do. You all ready have. Give me the court transcript; point out to me where he erred. Are you unwilling to look for the court transcript yourself, or do you think it not available? You want to make a comment on something, which you did in this case, and when called on it you suddenly become shy. Why is that I wonder? Here's what the judge said, and it indicates even HE does not believe the law is correct, though he is forced to follow it: "Still, the judge criticized Malone's reasoning. The former councilman had testified he hit his son to teach him respect and integrity in an environment in which the city saw 79 homicides last year, most of them black-on-black crimes. "Have you ever stopped to think about, instead of instilling discipline that you testified to, that you might be instilling violence by taking those actions, sir?" said Mock. "If we are ever going to stop the circle of violence in our community, I would suggest that you might want to take a long, hard thought about that."" In that you'll find arguments that those opposed to your support for CP have posted here before. Do you believe that following the law is always moral and correct? You did not when it was a CPS case, apparently, invoking the "good german" argument. Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents? The burden of proof is on you. You are saying that the judge is wrong then prove it! I did. The judge said so himself. He followed the law. He did not agree with it. And no, the burden of proof isn't on me just because you declare it to be. YOU have a responsibility to back up YOUR claims, something you rarely do when cornered and the outcome is NOT going to go your way and you know it. Just like now. So, as long as the law says it's okay to injure the child, as was the case here, physically most certainly as the hospital noted, and likely psychologically, you are good with that as being where your "line" is at the moment? Is this what they call selective morality? Where is your line, Doan? It's where "reasonable" people say it is? I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct conflict with each other. Exactly! In some places, the speed limit is 15mph, in others it's 55mph! Got it? Sure. Do you "got it?" So you are saying that as long as the law says it's okay, then it's okay? This morning, as I went for my paper to the local store I was in a 35 mile an hour zone. I slowed to almost 25. It would have been legal for me to pass that jogger at 35 and splash her with icy slush. Would it have been moral? Suppose I had lost control, at 35 mph and slide into her? Legal? NO, it would NOT be. As the judge in the case made clear, the man should NOT have beaten his son. "The photographs show welts on the boy's buttocks, back, stomach, arms and legs, including at least one mark that appeared to be from a belt buckle. The boy testified that Malone continued to hit him after he fell to the floor in pain. Malone, a former boxer and wrestler, testified that he subdued his son with a wrestling maneuver and hit him after the boy tried to grab the belt." You see, even the father didn't call it a "spanking." He admitted he "hit" his son. At least HE'S honest. You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they don't all agree? Yes! We can be "reasonable" without agreeing. Nope. Not in a matter such as this. Either it is reasonable to cause pain, in the name of teaching, to a child or it isn't. There's really no such thing as middle ground here, any more than one can be a little big pregnant, or a little bit dead. You have a lot of maturing to do, young man. And I think your parents either needed to spank you more, under your belief system, or not at all under mine. Whichever is reasonable. Which do you think is? Why are you changing the subject below? I though beccafromlalaland already told you that! ;-) What would that have to do with you? 0;- Doan What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally believe is reasonable. What I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is my business! Why are you yelling? Of course it's your business. Precisely why I asked. Where or not you admit to it is also your business, and ours to observe and contemplate. We see how willing you are to share some things, and not others about your beliefs. Isn't it nice to make up the rules as you go along? We notice that with spanked children a lot. They tend to be sneaky and sly, and manipulative, and have poor personal as well as social boundaries...just...like...that. Why do you always want to stick your nose into other people' asses? Their "belief" is not their ass. Though if you wish to claim yours is, at it seems by that question you are doing, then go right ahead. I just consider it your opinion, your belief, not your ass, and I asked for your belief, not your ass. So that you can tell them that it stinks? ;-) Now isn't that odd? You appear to be equating your belief with your ass that stinks. YOU, of all people, who demands that others answer your personal questions. You who make it a practice to bring up their personal business and use it to harass. Daring them to do this or that. Screaming at Chris about his claims of being an instructor and demanding he prove it. Demanding I tell posters, such as becca, what my credentials are. Tsk Doan. Tsk. One rule for you and another for others? How childish. Especially since you DID in fact share your personal business quite willingly when you admitted your parents spanked you. When, I suppose, it suited your purpose. Why so reluctant to share now? No cogent answer? Or one that might compromise your claim to neutrality? You are lacking in conviction and willing to take the next change of position, as long as it somehow supports your posting here as an advocate of spanking. Your postings are full of this same wishy washy waffling on this issue. You cannot say what is abusive and what isn't, even now with a judge saying it was wrong but "within the law." That's not an answer, Doan. Not at all. Unless you wish to agree with us, the folks opposed to CP, that it's dangerous physically and socially. Do you? That's what a "reasonable" judge said. It's 35 mph, unless conditions warrant otherwise, Doan. You seem so unable to grasp such concepts. Doan Kane References: http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs....WS01/602180374 http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...55/1077/news01 http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/50516006 http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...IT01/505170309 |
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