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OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too
used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why...I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend works where I do and has excellent insurance... L. DS, 5-25-01 & EDD 4-28-04 |
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LSU Grad of '89 writes:
: OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too : used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's : ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying : on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and : husband in attendance. And just what is wrong with this. In most states midwives are professionals with just as strong licensing requirements as doctors. : I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and : ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby : is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch : everything - right ? Wrong? Your "from line" lists you as a graduate of a major university, but it certainly seems you have not done your homework on the safety issues of this one. Let me offer just a few stats to start with. 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for specific indications. It is grossly overused. 2. Did you know that NO major medical study in the last 20 years have shown OB/hospital birth to be any safer than home/midwife birth for a matched population? In fact, most studies have shown them to be almost equal. A few studies have shown homebirth to be safer. What does come out of the studies VERY STRONGLY is that the rate of complicaitons for planned hospital births is much higher than for planned home births. I have two very specific suggestions for you to increase your level of objective knowledge in this area: A. Do a search on MEDLINE. It is a national database of peer reviewed journal articles in the medical area. You can looks for studies in almost any specialty. Learn to use it. Look up the studies on birth. Find out what the stats really are. B. Read one of Henci Goer's books: "The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth" is aimed primarily at birthing women who want to know what the best and safest way to birth is, but it also contains plenty of references to the medical studies that back up its conclusions. "Obstetric Myths versus Research Realities" is aimed more at the medical professional, and contains strong evidence based on the medical research why certian common procedures should or should not be done. I think either of these routes would give you the objective information to be able to speak soundly on this subject. : Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at : home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is : demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is : right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal : for having the most pain !" Excuse me for saying it, but here is another statement based on total ignorance. Again I will offer you two reasons your statement is off track. 1. This issue has been discussed on this newsgroup many times. If you take a women who has experience both a medicated birth with an epidural, and an unmedicated birth, which do you think that woman will say that she preferred. At least 95% of the mothers on mkp who have done both say they would go natural in an instant. I am sure you will get not a few replies to this post from those women! :-) There is a good reason for this. The comfort measures available to a woman who is allowed to labor naturally are far more effective than the medications are to a woman who must labor passively while hooked up to IVs and other mobility limiting devices. 2. Numerous studies have shown that the epidural anesthesia passes from the mother to the babies bloodstream, and that babies who are born to moms with epidurals have lower apgar scores, are more morbid, have more difficulty breastfeeding, and in general do not respond as quickly or well. : However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own : method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's : wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned : that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. I can't help worrying : for her but I don't know why...I guess I can't imagine going through an : entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and : access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend : works where I do and has excellent insurance... Unfortunately you have a view of midwives that is straight out of the middle ages. What you do not know is how modern and professional they are, and how much the obstetric process has actually increased risks by the inappropriate overuse of technology. I suggest that you do some objective reading on the subject before becoming subject to such unfounded fears. : L. : DS, 5-25-01 & EDD 4-28-04 Larry |
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![]() LSU Grad of '89 wrote: OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. GASP! ![]() I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? Wrong. Midwives are trained experts in normal (and variations thereof) of pregnancy and birth. For the most part, considering where midwifery is regulated, midwives have access to everything doctors do-- labs to send their clients to for blood work, radiologists or techs for ultrasounds, and on. Midwife doesn't equal sub-par practitioner or dark ages medicine. Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" Well, the only one I know who deserves a gold medal is my husband who competed in the Olympics ![]() with you and your desire for a medically and technologically managed pregnancy and birth. That's why she's chosen to give birth at home. However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why... Well don't be because she doesn't need your negative or doubtful energy surrounding her (really, I'm not being rude). It's doubtful you're the first person who has expressed this about her or to her. Thanks for your concern (I accept on her behalf G). She may be equally as worried for you to be walking into a hospital where intervention lurks behind every procedure. Besides, having a baby at home is not a simple feat. She has likely accepted more personal responsibility for her choice to birth at home than many women do for their choice to hand over care to doctors and hospitals for their births. I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend works where I do and has excellent insurance... You must be channeling my dad! ![]() be born at a hospital, so he equates it with "making it" in the world. Midwives can get insurance reimbursement, usually as out of network providers. Certified Nurse-Midwives (many of whom practice out of hospitals) have prescriptive authority. Aside from that, there is no reason a prescription has to be written for a prenatal vitamin-- there are 800 brands for sale in any given Whole Foods Market or other health food store. Anyway, you're right, it's all about choice ![]() Kris, mother to 4 children, all born with midwives attending; three at home and also a student midwife who attended the home water birth of a 9lb 2oz baby girl yesterday morning |
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In article , Larry McMahan
wrote: LSU Grad of '89 writes: : I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and : ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby : is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch : everything - right ? 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for specific indications. It is grossly overused. No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear what you mean by "specific indications." Our ultrasound involved a bunch of specific measurements, which we enthusiastically asked a lot of questions about. out of the studies VERY STRONGLY is that the rate of complicaitons for planned hospital births is much higher than for planned home births. Mainly because pregnancies with identified risks for complications are planned for hospital birth. B. Read one of Henci Goer's books: "The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth" is aimed primarily at birthing women who want to know what the best and safest way to birth is, but it also contains plenty of references to the medical studies that back up its conclusions. "Obstetric Myths versus Research Realities" is aimed more at the medical professional, and contains strong evidence based on the medical research why certian common procedures should or should not be done. I don't think lsugo89 said that nobody should do natural birth. We did a planned hospital birth (with a midwife), but we read a lot about the stuff you refer to--and we discussed them rationally with our midwives. Some things we changed, some things we were reassured about. I think either of these routes would give you the objective information to be able to speak soundly on this subject. See, it just sounds like she'd have to voice your opinion on order to "speak soundly." 1. This issue has been discussed on this newsgroup many times. If you take a women who has experience both a medicated birth with an epidural, and an unmedicated birth, which do you think that woman will say that she preferred. At least 95% of the mothers on mkp who have done both say they would go natural in an instant. I am sure you will get not a few replies to this Actually, our labor nurse said exactly the opposite--she had 2 unmedicated and 1 with an epidural, and she said the epidural was the better experience. 2. Numerous studies have shown that the epidural anesthesia passes from the mother to the babies bloodstream, and that babies who are born to moms with epidurals have lower apgar scores, are more morbid, have more difficulty breastfeeding, and in general do not respond as quickly or well. My wife had an early epidural and the did a couple bolus' during labor. Our daughter scored 9.9 apgar and breastfed like a champ. I don't disagree that statistically epidurals are more likely to produce those problems, but that's not the same as what you're stating. Unfortunately you have a view of midwives that is straight out of the middle ages. What you do not know is how modern and professional they are, and how much the obstetric process has actually increased risks by the inappropriate overuse of technology. I suggest that you do some objective reading on the subject before becoming subject to such unfounded fears. I agree that many fears about home natural midwife birth are unfounded and irrational, but there's plenty of axe grinding on both side of the issue. And I doubt that a woman who has faith mainly in one side would do very well in the opposite. Knowing a lot about both approaches is probably the best strategy APS also an LSU grad of 1989 :-) |
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mountainspring wrote:
However, once I switched to the midwives, I can honestly say, I will never switch back. [...] With all the doctors I've ever dealt with, I usually feel lucky to keep them in the room long enough to answer whatever questions I may have before they're running out the door to see another patient. [...] Just piping in to say that not all doctors are always in a hurry. I have a fabulous ob/gyn who has never, ever made me feel rushed. The one time he did have a few emergency c-sections, they told me up front that I'd only have 15 minutes with him. Otherwise, I've always been able to ask all the questions I want and he's been a rock of support during the easy part of my pregnancy, during the horrible premature contractions / u/s misdiagnosis by the perinatologists / possible hydrocephalus / fibroid problems, and during the c-section, and afterwards. Plus, he has a fantastic front office who will fight for you and make calls and send faxes until you get the result you want (a squeezed appointment into a completely booked pediatric neurologist, for example). -- Anita -- -- SUCCESS FOUR FLIGHTS THURSDAY MORNING ALL AGAINST TWENTY ONE MILE WIND STARTED FROM LEVEL WITH ENGINE POWER ALONE AVERAGE SPEED THROUGH AIR THIRTY ONE MILES LONGEST 57 SECONDS INFORM PRESS HOME CHRISTMAS. |
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![]() "LSU Grad of '89" wrote in message ... OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? [snip] I obviously agree with a lot of what has already been posted (or I wouldn't be planning a homebirth) and add as follows: (1) I went into this pregnancy assuming that the medical model of care is best for the baby (I live in the US) and set out to research what tests and prenatal and labor protocols were best for my baby and secondarily, myself. I was fortunate to have some free time on my hands to do this, something most employed women don't have. I was self-employed and made it a priority. I was shocked when my very competent, intelligent and generally non-asshole obstetrician had very little interest in my well-researched and reasoned judgments about what treatment I will request and what treatment I will refuse. I think this is why it is sometimes said derogatorily that obstetrics is "myth based" not "outcome based." A colorful example is the giving of a 40-week "due date." Some guy made that up a long time ago based on *moon cycles* not research. And it's still stuck around. My midwife *wants* to do what research and common sense indicate are best for babies and mothers AND for me as a mother of a particular child in a family with particular values. Big difference. If she is not up on a particular issue or doesn't come down strongly either way, she admits it. She is always reading and learning after decades of practice. She has a lot fewer patients than my OBs and has time to do that, plus she only needs to know a small subset of obstetrics since her job is healthy mothers and minor complications. Both my OBs, probably in an attempt to instill confidence, simply start talking out of their asses when they fall out of their range of knowledge. I forgive them, these guys have jobs. Very demanding jobs. I don't expect them to have exactly the same knowledge base I have. And they would be able to do their jobs a lot better if they didn't have to know how to do EVERYTHING, e.g., they delegated healthy normal births to midwives. (2) I did go see an obstetrician regularly during the time I have had co-care with a (non-nurse, homebirth) Certified Professional Midwife. The OB is very handy for things like prescriptions and lab slips within the HMO type system. They also are pretty easy to reach in my experience compared to primary care doctors. But bottom line, what I need the OB for prenatally my family practitioner could have done for me, and most of the tests that I needed done were due to my particular medical history and my Rh- status, so may not apply to your friend. It was good to get to know the OB in case I have to transport to the hospital during labor (or risk out prior to labor) and that was important to me, but must not be to your friend. (3) Finally, while the obstetricians will tell you (against the evidence) that homebirths are not safe, you are risking X, Y, and Z, here's what the *other* doctors in my life had to say. My family doctor (female, late 40s, MD, two children): I think your interest in homebirth is well-reasoned. I wanted to have my children at home but my husband wouldn't agree. I will come give the baby a checkup at your house in the first 24 hours if you want. The pediatrician I interviewed (female, early 30s, MD, one child): Oh, homebirth is no problem. You can call for an appointment to bring the baby in the next day. We might have a problem since we don't keep Vitamin K here. Wait, no, we can write you a prescription. My dermatologist (female, early 30s, MD, one child): You are brave to not get an epidural. Me: You're a doctor, you know how the hospital is, would you really check yourself into a hospital if it wasn't medically necessary? Dermatologist: (Pause) maybe not. -- Dagny EDD 10/6/03 |
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![]() "LSU Grad of '89" wrote in message ... OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. Maybe where you are! Here in New Zealand most Mums I know have a midwife or shred care with a midwife and a GP. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. Same here, I am 35 weeks pregnant and haven't seen a doctor once. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? With a midwife I have had blood tests at 12, 28 and 36 weeks. I have been tested for GD, I have the option of a nuchal fold ultrasound, amnio, etc... I had a morphology scan by choice at twenty weeks. I see my midwife four weekly (then two weekly and from 36 weeks, weekly) for urine test, BP, doppler and a really good chat all in my home. Any time ANYTHING is a problem my midwife will refer me to an OB who I would see within a day or two (sooner if urgent). When I had problems with baby's movements I went staright to hospital for monitoring, done by my midwife. She has had three years university training and several supervised years on the job and works with two back up midwives. So yes I think a midwife does has as much or more chance of catching any problems. Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" It's about recovery and how you feel afterwards. I would rather put up with hours of pain witha purpose than weeks of recovery. However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. That's because you beleive what you have been told is "the best" for your baby. The lady at work obviously disagrees. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why...I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) Here they can, and they can write prescriptions for a lot more as well. I have that choice, I could see an OB if I wanted to from day one but there's nothing wrong with me so I don't. Judy |
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:50:35 +0800, "JoFromOz"
wrote: For millions of years women have been giving birth without the help of doctors. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but must comment on this statement which is routinely trotted out by the natural folks. Women may have been giving birth (millions of years is a stretch -- homo sapiens first appeared about 300-450,000 years ago) without modern medical care, but that doesn't mean that it was safer then. If you want to quote studies, great. If you want to point to anecdoctal evidence, go for it. Please stop saying that since it has been done in the past that it was done safely. -- Help the women of Afganistan http://www.rawa.org/ "You despise me, don't you?" "If I gave you any thought, I probably would." |
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LSU Grad of '89 writes:
: OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too : used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's : ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying : on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and : husband in attendance. Sounds like a nice plan to me. ![]() pregnancy, and I don't plan to with any future ones either. I loved my completely natural, drug-free non-hospital birth attended by a midwife and wouldn't trade it for all the ultrasounds in the world. I liked not having tons of routine-but-unnecessary-for-me tests and ultrasounds. My midwives checked my urine and blood pressure and the baby's growth and everything at each appointment, and had anything arisen that seemed wrong (or if I had wanted to have an u/s to see the baby's sex), they would have referred us to a doctor right away. (In fact, when a minor concern about me arose after the delivery, they had an OB come right over to give his opinion, and he deemed all to be fine.) Most of all, I loved that I was cared for by women who cared about all aspects of my pregnancy, physical and emotional, and that my baby was born in a quiet, low-tech setting where the emphasis was on new-family-bonding and snuggling our baby, and I loved that she was born calm and alert and very ready to nurse and gaze into our eyes. ![]() It was completely wonderful, everything I could have hoped for and more. But that's just my opinion; I know it isn't the right choice for everyone, but for a low-risk woman with an uncomplicated pregnancy, it's perfectly safe, maybe even safer (as Larry pointed out). And Larry wrote: Unfortunately you have a view of midwives that is straight out of the middle ages. Nah, in the middle ages, they had a better view of midwives. ![]() -Sara ![]() Mommy to a perfectly-healthy, still-happily-nursing 18-month-old "What's a hospital?" baby girl |
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"LSU Grad of '89" wrote in message .. .
OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. Then research would be your friend. The outcomes for natural, midwifery based prenatal care and child birth are statistically quite superior to the intervention based medical attitude for low risk pregnancies. Best for baby means best outcome. People do not have natural child birth because they want others to give them a round of applause. They do it because they have done the research and see the advantages to mother and baby. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why... Don't. Midwives are trained at identifying risk and referring to a doc when risk increases. I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend works where I do and has excellent insurance... I cannot imagine why you would want to pay extra money for prescription prenatal vitamins when they are available as generic over the counters for about 3/4 the price. L. DS, 5-25-01 & EDD 4-28-04 |
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