speech deteriorating

My son, who has just turned 4 used to have pretty good pronunciation -
when I was given a list of when certain sounds were usually learnt, I
was surprised to find that he had all by 3 and a bit when the norm
wasn't until approaching 6. But in the last couple of months, his
vocabulary is still increasing and the complexity of what he says is the
same or more complex, but the sound of it has gone quite bad at times,
to the extent we have a lot of trouble understanding what he is saying,
when previously we could hear what he was saying, but not always what he
was meaning. One factor is he seemed to have acquired the habit of
putting 2 fingers in his mouth, he never did suck his thumb or fingers,
I think he's picked up this habit from his little sister, who has 2
fingers practically glued into her mouth - this is soluble, we just
remind him to take them out before speaking, but even then, there are
still some random sounds being produced, still soluble, we remind him to
speak properly and mostly he does.

I would expect him to have some change of accent due to moving from the
UK to the US, but very few of the sounds he produces sound American to
me, they sound Indian - hardly surprising in our neighbourhood, but in
the long term it is a worry to me, if we can't understand him, then
others probably won't either.

Last year, he was the only native English speaker in his preschool
class, I was totally happy with that, but looking back, it probably is
the main place he's been exposed to a consistent non American accent.
He's signed up for preschool at the same place next year and the class
will probably be a little more mixed, as it's a morning class - the
afternoon classes seem to be less popular and then have space for people
moving into the area, the vast majority of which are Indian.

I'm also starting to be a little anxious about school, I'm guessing over
50% will have English as a 2nd language, I'm concerned this will be
troublesome when it comes to making friends and also for the long term
development of his own speech capabilities.

I'm confused as to whether I'm being over anxious about this and he'll
gradually settle on an accent that is a mix but understandable. I've
also not heard great things about schools where large numbers don't have
English spoken at home, but I wondered if this was associated with
poverty more than the actual language issues and this area is fairly
affluent, less affluent than most of the localish neighbourhoods, but
well above the poverty line.

Anne

I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.

Anne

Anne Rogers wrote:
I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be particularly worried. When you
get right down to it, he'll still spend most of his time with
native English speakers between you, teachers, and his friends
who are native English speakers. I think it's probably more likely
that he's just experimenting or playing a bit and that this will
not be a long lasting phase. Or, if it is, it may be indicative
of something like hearing issues rather than his environment.
We live in a very diverse areas, and it really hasn't been an
issue for us. I think some bumps along the road of language
acquisition are fairly common, though. You want to keep an
eye on them in case they persist, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry particularly.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:19:01 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Anne Rogers wrote:
I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be particularly worried. When you
get right down to it, he'll still spend most of his time with
native English speakers between you, teachers, and his friends
who are native English speakers. I think it's probably more likely
that he's just experimenting or playing a bit and that this will
not be a long lasting phase. Or, if it is, it may be indicative
of something like hearing issues rather than his environment.
We live in a very diverse areas, and it really hasn't been an
issue for us. I think some bumps along the road of language
acquisition are fairly common, though. You want to keep an
eye on them in case they persist, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry particularly.

I think it depends on how diverse it is. I lived once where nearly the
entire population spoke Spanish. It was a farming community in California,
fairly small. The children learned and spoke English in school, but
everyone had an accent, even if they grew up in California. Heck, I was an
adult and didn't live there long, but I started to speak with a Mexican
accent after awhile, with the incorrect syntax to boot. Anyway, their
English was not good. I'm talking about the American born kids.

toypup wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:19:01 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Anne Rogers wrote:
I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.
Honestly, I wouldn't be particularly worried. When you
get right down to it, he'll still spend most of his time with
native English speakers between you, teachers, and his friends
who are native English speakers. I think it's probably more likely
that he's just experimenting or playing a bit and that this will
not be a long lasting phase. Or, if it is, it may be indicative
of something like hearing issues rather than his environment.
We live in a very diverse areas, and it really hasn't been an
issue for us. I think some bumps along the road of language
acquisition are fairly common, though. You want to keep an
eye on them in case they persist, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry particularly.

I think it depends on how diverse it is. I lived once where nearly the
entire population spoke Spanish. It was a farming community in California,
fairly small. The children learned and spoke English in school, but
everyone had an accent, even if they grew up in California. Heck, I was an
adult and didn't live there long, but I started to speak with a Mexican
accent after awhile, with the incorrect syntax to boot. Anyway, their
English was not good. I'm talking about the American born kids.

If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)
And if it is the case that he develops a bit of an accent, I
wouldn't worry terribly about that, either. Those tend to be
pretty malleable. I was a military brat and grew up all over.
My accent, and even my phrasing to some extent, certainly changed
(especially when living in places with easy-to-fall-into accents,
like the South), but I could always easily snap back to the
grammar and accent I was used to at home.
I would worry in a situation where a child of this age
was exposed to incorrect grammar for a large part of the time
by important figures like parents, teachers, or long-term
caregivers, but I wouldn't worry about accents. Come to
think of it, though, we know a number of folks who hired
nannies who spoke a different language in order to promote
the acquisition of that language by their children, and
despite the amount of time the kids spent with the nannies,
I didn't see any long term negative impact on their English.
They did go through some of the delays and mixing-up that
are common in bi-lingual households, but ended up speaking
English well and the other language well. I'm sure there's
probably a difference between a Spanish-speaking nanny teaching
and communicating with the children in good Spanish and a
Spanish-speaking nanny communicating with the children in
poor English. Still, I would think that if even *that* much
exposure to other accents and ways of speaking didn't compromise
the children's English, it's hard to imagine that a diverse
school or neighborhood would cause any significant, long-term
issues. Heck, some of these kids then went on to partial-immersion
language programs in elementary school, and therefore had most
of their schooling in a different language, and *still* had
fine English. I'd want to be sure that their significant
role models for English (parents, teachers teaching in
English, etc.) were speaking grammatically correct English,
but barring other issues (like hearing problems or speech
impediments of some sort), I just wouldn't expect any lasting
problem.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:16:02 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

toypup wrote:

I think it depends on how diverse it is. I lived once where nearly the
entire population spoke Spanish. It was a farming community in California,
fairly small. The children learned and spoke English in school, but
everyone had an accent, even if they grew up in California. Heck, I was an
adult and didn't live there long, but I started to speak with a Mexican
accent after awhile, with the incorrect syntax to boot. Anyway, their
English was not good. I'm talking about the American born kids.

If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)

I understand, but people often speak of diverse as not Caucasian. In this
case, OP sounds like she is speaking of a majority Indian.

I didn't see any long term negative impact on their English.

I would think that is because they are otherwise surrounded by a lot of
native English speakers.

I actually grew up in a very diverse area. I read once in our local paper
that quoted one hundred languages spoken in our school. I'm not sure that
was true, but it was very diverse. It actually did not affect my English,
because the school was so diverse that we had to communicate in English.

They did go through some of the delays and mixing-up that
are common in bi-lingual households, but ended up speaking
English well and the other language well.

My parents spoke a language other than English. It was not a difficulty
for me learning English, because the school I went to was all in English.

OTOH, it was a problem for learning my parents' native language. I only
understand them but cannot speak. I had no exposure to the language
outside the home until I was a bit older, so exposure to proper English
only at home can be a problem for learning proper English. If the teacher
was the only other person to model proper English, I wonder if that is
enough.

My kids went to a dcp who only spoke Spanish. I wanted them to learn
Spanish. DS took longer to pick up English and he did mix up the languages
at first. I don't think exposure of this type is detrimental to learning
English. I do think having no exposure to proper English is a problem for
learning English.

poor English. Still, I would think that if even *that* much
exposure to other accents and ways of speaking didn't compromise
the children's English, it's hard to imagine that a diverse
school or neighborhood would cause any significant, long-term
issues.

I think if everyone was speaking poorly (and in the same poor grammar so as
to make that grammar the norm), it will be a problem.

Heck, some of these kids then went on to partial-immersion
language programs in elementary school, and therefore had most
of their schooling in a different language, and *still* had
fine English.

How partial? It was something I was contemplating for my kids but decided
to pass. I can't see how someone who is taught only half as often in a
subject can outpace someone who is taught full time in that subject. It's
fine if the immersion is 10 percent.

Sure, there are kids who speak another language at home and do well in
English at school, but they are not instructed 50 percent of the time in
their native tongue. They are instructed fully in English.

Now, if they have studies showing a program starting 100 percent Spanish in
kindergarten slowly immersing to 50/50 Spanish/English by third grade and
continuing at 50/50 to 6th grade results in equal competency with peers
instructed wholly in English (this was the program I was contemplating),
I'm sure you'd find it and show me and I will change my stance.

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 04:41:21 GMT, toypup wrote:

Sure, there are kids who speak another language at home and do well in
English at school, but they are not instructed 50 percent of the time in
their native tongue. They are instructed fully in English.

Oh, and I would like to add, that we had ESL classes at my diverse school.
Kids who attended those classes were instructed in Spanish (that was the
largest minority group). I'm not sure what they did with kids who spoke
something other than Spanish. They were supposed to ease the kids into
English classes, but those kids never left ESL. They'd stay in it for
years. The ones who came in and did full English immersian did much
better.

toypup wrote:

OTOH, it was a problem for learning my parents' native language. I only
understand them but cannot speak. I had no exposure to the language
outside the home until I was a bit older, so exposure to proper English
only at home can be a problem for learning proper English. If the teacher
was the only other person to model proper English, I wonder if that is
enough.

I think a teacher alone would be a stretch, but here
we're talking about both parents, probably teachers, and not
a few friends/peers.

I think if everyone was speaking poorly (and in the same poor grammar so as
to make that grammar the norm), it will be a problem.

But Anne's case is a far cry from that situation.

Heck, some of these kids then went on to partial-immersion
language programs in elementary school, and therefore had most
of their schooling in a different language, and *still* had
fine English.

How partial? It was something I was contemplating for my kids but decided
to pass. I can't see how someone who is taught only half as often in a
subject can outpace someone who is taught full time in that subject. It's
fine if the immersion is 10 percent.

The partial immersion programs in this area separate by
subject. I'm not sure of the details, as my children aren't in
one of the partial immersion programs, but I know that math, e.g.,
is taught entirely in the foreign language. I *think* that math,
science, and health/PE are taught in the foreign language, and
language arts, social studies and maybe something I'm forgetting
are taught in English.

Sure, there are kids who speak another language at home and do well in
English at school, but they are not instructed 50 percent of the time in
their native tongue. They are instructed fully in English.

As are Anne's children, as well as being exposed to
proper English at home.

Now, if they have studies showing a program starting 100 percent Spanish in
kindergarten slowly immersing to 50/50 Spanish/English by third grade and
continuing at 50/50 to 6th grade results in equal competency with peers
instructed wholly in English (this was the program I was contemplating),
I'm sure you'd find it and show me and I will change my stance.

I'm not sure what you're arguing for/against here. The partial
immersion programs here are electives chosen by (primarily)
English speaking families who want their children to have early
exposure to a foreign language in the hopes that they will develop
greater fluency in that language. My understanding is that the
instruction in these programs is roughly 50/50. They aren't phasing
in or out anything (though I think the program stops after elementary
school, after which time there are transition programs available
in some middle schools). I don't know how successful the programs
are in terms of developing fluency in the foreign language, but my
point was that while this is a *lot* of exposure to a different
language, the kids nevertheless don't seem to have any problem
speaking English...probably because they have exposure to proper
English at home and in the English-speaking part of their school
curriculum, despite spending a lot of time surrounded by people
speaking a different language. None of the students I've had contact
with (which is quite a few, at this point) have any noticeable problems
with English. Thus, I'm imagining that Anne's son, who is exposed
to proper English at home and (I assume) from his teacher(s), if not
all the other students, is very likely to end up speaking proper
English.

Best wishes,
Ericka

toypup wrote:

Oh, and I would like to add, that we had ESL classes at my diverse school.
Kids who attended those classes were instructed in Spanish (that was the
largest minority group). I'm not sure what they did with kids who spoke
something other than Spanish. They were supposed to ease the kids into
English classes, but those kids never left ESL. They'd stay in it for
years. The ones who came in and did full English immersian did much
better.

Here, there are ESL programs, but the vast majority of
kids transition out within a couple years, max. The ESL programs
are partial programs (i.e., the child is in a mainstream classroom,
but has additional ESL support in some subjects until he or she
can keep up with the class). But that's completely different
from the partial immersion language programs. There is, however,
a fairly new two-way partial immersion kindergarten program. I
think it's only available in Spanish. In that one, the classes
are comprised of half native English speakers and half native
Spanish speakers. They focus on the transition both ways in
kindy, then move to the regular partial immersion program for
1st-6th grade.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:04:16 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I'm not sure what you're arguing for/against here.

I was arguing that I didn't want the immersion programs because it focused
too much on developing fluency in Spanish at the expense of fluency in
English.

The partial
immersion programs here are electives chosen by (primarily)
English speaking families who want their children to have early
exposure to a foreign language in the hopes that they will develop
greater fluency in that language. My understanding is that the
instruction in these programs is roughly 50/50. They aren't phasing
in or out anything (though I think the program stops after elementary
school, after which time there are transition programs available
in some middle schools).

Our program is supposedly to teach Spanish to English speaking children but
many parents are Spanish speakers who want their children to not lose
Spanish. That is what they said in newspaper interviews. The program
starts wholly in Spanish and English is phased in. I don't know how they
get around NCLB in the early years.


I don't know how successful the programs
are in terms of developing fluency in the foreign language, but my
point was that while this is a *lot* of exposure to a different
language, the kids nevertheless don't seem to have any problem
speaking English...

It's not only speaking that I worry about, more the reading and writing,
the subtleties of written and spoken English.

I know lots of biligual speakers. Many think they speak English well, and
they do. However, they do miss the subtleties of the language and that can
be a problem.

I don't think the kids in your area would have a problem with spoken
English because it is their native tongue and all the kids speak English
when not in 50 percent of their classes. I wonder about their written
English and reading skills, but those may be good, because the subjects
that involve lots of reading and writing are done in English.

In our area, because the school starts out wholly in Spanish, there can't
be any instruction in reading and writing in English, at least at first.
They do learn to read and write in Spanish, though. I don't know how they
split it at third grade. I'd imagine it would have to be something like
the school in your area, if they are wise, but maybe not.

with English. Thus, I'm imagining that Anne's son, who is exposed
to proper English at home and (I assume) from his teacher(s), if not
all the other students, is very likely to end up speaking proper
English.

I am just thinking of the extreme scenario I saw in that farming community
when OP mentioned her son being the only native English speaker and his
hearing a consistent non-American accent, mainly Indian. If the school is
more diverse than that, I don't really see a problem.