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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 10th 07, 05:13 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
nimue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 645
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

NL wrote:
Beliavsky schrieb:
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.


When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.


Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him? And
this is going to work how?
If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a time
out there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also, how do
you punish him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it
escalates? Do you hit harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you
going to grab a wooden spoon or make him get a twig? When do you stop
and what do you do then?
You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's nothing
to top it.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.


Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents
a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents
can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that
being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of
parents' rules.


No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a
child out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing
that you can't just move out of the custody of your parents or
guardian before you're 18.


A parent who turns a child under 18 out of the house better be prepared to
face legal repurcussions.

I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and
obedience.


If the adults deserve it, usually they will get it. If the child has
serious mental problems and can't give it -- well, spanking would have just
made those problems work.

I think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe
them a violence free upbringing.


I think you are absolutely right. I think people spank either because they
are abusive or because they don't know a better way. There is a better way.

And then we can hope that our
children will respect us and our rules.

cu
nicole


--
nimue

"Let your freak-flag fly, and if someone doesn't get you, move on."
Drew Barrymore


  #12  
Old July 10th 07, 05:14 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
nimue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 645
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Stephanie wrote:
"NL" wrote in message
...
Beliavsky schrieb:
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often
gets, a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random
hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.
"Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking,
but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen?
Spanking is a necessary last resort.


Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him?
And this is going to work how?
If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a
time out there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also,
how do you punish him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it
escalates? Do you hit harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you
going to grab a wooden spoon or make him get a twig? When do you
stop and what do you do then?
You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's
nothing to top it.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their
parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away
some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme
misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers
need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of
complete independence of parents' rules.


No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a
child out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing
that you can't just move out of the custody of your parents or
guardian before you're 18.

I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and
obedience. I think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe
them a violence free upbringing. And then we can hope that our
children will respect us and our rules.

cu
nicole


I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.


I like that -- that sounds good.

--
nimue

"Let your freak-flag fly, and if someone doesn't get you, move on."
Drew Barrymore


  #13  
Old July 10th 07, 05:16 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
nimue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 645
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Tori M wrote:
By the way, it doesn't work very well.

If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I
would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit
by a car is not something I am willing to risk.


Of course.

If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why is he
being allowed access to road traffic at all?

Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety,
even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch
on the gate?


We are not allowed to stick up a fence. I would love to.. I can
picture it in my head. Not allowed. We are on a 15 mph road.. they
go at least 30 when they get to my house. My 5 year old is 40 lbs if
that.. I am thinking a 30 mph car would win.

Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where
you are on foot in traffic?

The whole talk to them and
eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their
ear off is bull.


Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking
is the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with?

I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age,
with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when
accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you
think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum
be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his
daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able
to buy him an ice cream cone again?


Yes we taught them that if they play in the road they could become
dead and that Mommy and Daddy would be sad if they became dead.


Are you kidding? God, that is sick.

We
also explained that lesson about tying things to their necks.


What?!

Maybe
I am paranoid after seeing a kid hit by a car in a driveway but I
also do not want them playing in my driveway.
We have a nice amount of lawn for 2 kids to play in and that is the
only place I want them. We go out, when they do not obey me we go
back in. They run towards the road we go in they get spanked and then
we explain why and reinforce it by reminding them that mommy and
Daddy do not want them Dead.


Please tell me you are kidding. If you aren't, please, PLEASE do not breed
anymore and send you children to a caring, supportive therapist.

Oh and I am trying to figure out a way to work around the no Fence
rule.. maybe getting something that comes down when not in use or
something.. I don't know.

Tori


--
nimue

"Let your freak-flag fly, and if someone doesn't get you, move on."
Drew Barrymore


  #14  
Old July 10th 07, 05:55 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Tori M[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


I still can't figure out why a smart person such as you resorts to
spanking, but then, to each his, or her own.

Aw Flattery :P

If you have the study, I'd enjoy discussing it with you.


I have not read it. Is it online? I will look it up as I enjoy
learning new parenting methods.

Tori
  #15  
Old July 10th 07, 06:05 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Tori M[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


Are you kidding? God, that is sick.


Ok so we can not explain the consequences of their actions to them, we
can not spank them.. the option left is to???
We
also explained that lesson about tying things to their necks.


What?


My husband had a friend that hung himself accidentally playing how the
kids where. They where playing "puppy" with a scarf. It is also the
reason that Bonnie had her jump rope removed. This is the only thing
that has stopped them from playing that game. Previously I would find
them tied to the bunk bed.
Maybe
I am paranoid after seeing a kid hit by a car in a driveway but I
also do not want them playing in my driveway.
We have a nice amount of lawn for 2 kids to play in and that is the
only place I want them. We go out, when they do not obey me we go
back in. They run towards the road we go in they get spanked and then
we explain why and reinforce it by reminding them that mommy and
Daddy do not want them Dead.


Please tell me you are kidding. If you aren't, please, PLEASE do not breed
anymore and send you children to a caring, supportive therapist.


Oh for goodness sake. I didn't threaten to kill them and Bonnie
understands a little about dead. This again was a last ditch effort
after finding the neck thing worked. So far they are better about it.
I was 9 when I saw my neighbor get run over by a car. How much more
traumatizing do you think it would be for my 2 year old boy to get hung
or hit by a car in front of my 5 year old?

Tori
  #16  
Old July 10th 07, 06:25 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Tori M[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


Why then did you need to be spanked?


Oh I did not mean to imply that I was perfect. Just that I don't
remember getting spanked often but I do remember getting spanked. I had
my sons easy temperament without the boyish need to get into everything.
Or did you mean the spankings made you easy to correct?


No I was just easy to correct.
What about being spanked do you think made you like that?


Honestly the threat of a spanking was usually enough for me. i would
have to consult with my mother on that one. :P
Being "good" and feeling "guilty very easy," may not be all the useful
a set of skills in many circumstances.


I would turn myself in. I was no fun.

Tori, I've not suggested, I hope you noticed, and remember from my
prior postings on this subject, that children "have a say in
everything."


I must admit I usually shy away from the spanking posts. It seems
though the people that are the most against spankings believe that a
child should have the vote in many matters. I have on the other hand
told a friend who's daughter is not being obedient that it might help to
find out what the girl thinks is a more appropriate punishment. I
personally think they ask too much of her. She is 9.

Or words to that effect. Same goes for shopping trip meltdowns. I've
nothing against, and have done so myself, picking a kid up and taking
them out to the car. If they can't get themselves under control,
driving them home.


We do that at restaurants. My husband or I will take them to either the
bathroom or the car and calmly explain to them that they need to sit
down and eat quietly. They are fairly good at the store though we do
have running issues if we don't use those 2 kids carts.


Giving choices for littler kids is an example.


You have some good points and you worded them well.

Tori
  #17  
Old July 10th 07, 12:48 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Stephanie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 693
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


"0:-]" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:11:15 -0500, Tori M
wrote:



I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.



I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment.


And until they do, spanking is the tool to teach them do obey you?

There are rules for a
reason.


Sure there are. And before a child can "reason" we have more choices
than simply hitting them to force them to obey.



I, for one, don't think that most rules are in place for a reason. Or at
least often not a defensible one. I have a funny approach. If I sound like a
retard to myself trying to explain a rule to my kids, I rethink the rule.

By the way, it doesn't work very well.

If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I
would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a
car is not something I am willing to risk.


Of course.

If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why is he
being allowed access to road traffic at all?

Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety,
even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch on
the gate?



And there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling your child, you have
demonstrated to me that you lack sufficient self control to play in the yard
yourself. Therefore you must wait until Mommy can supervise you. They then
KNOW what it is they are striving for... enough self control to be allowed
to play by themselves. You can begin to tell them what self control looks
like and feels like, etc..

Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where you
are on foot in traffic?

The whole talk to them and
eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear
off is bull.


Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking is
the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with?

I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age,
with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when
accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you
think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum
be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his
daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able to
buy him an ice cream cone again?



For me it was "you are much too precious for me to risk" combined with, IF
you cannot remain close to me on your own THEN you must ride in the
stroller. Or WHEN you have shown me that you can remain safely close to me
THEN you can walk without holding my hand. It takes a time or twenty for you
to enforce stroller or hand holding. But they figger it.


I recommend this lesson no younger than five, and preferably six,
though one need not wait that long to begin.

And better, stop by with the kiddies for a few days to revisit the
flat possum. 0:]

Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is we
don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them
out to play.


Tori


Kane






  #18  
Old July 10th 07, 12:50 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Stephanie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 693
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


"Tori M" wrote in message
et...

By the way, it doesn't work very well.
If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would prefer
they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not
something I am willing to risk.


Of course. If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why
is he
being allowed access to road traffic at all?

Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety,
even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch on
the gate?


We are not allowed to stick up a fence. I would love to.. I can picture
it in my head. Not allowed. We are on a 15 mph road.. they go at least
30 when they get to my house. My 5 year old is 40 lbs if that.. I am
thinking a 30 mph car would win.

Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where you
are on foot in traffic?

The whole talk to them and eventually they will just do what is right
because you talked their ear off is bull.


Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking is
the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with?

I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age,
with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when
accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you
think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum
be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his
daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able to
buy him an ice cream cone again?

Yes we taught them that if they play in the road they could become dead
and that Mommy and Daddy would be sad if they became dead. We also
explained that lesson about tying things to their necks. Maybe I am
paranoid after seeing a kid hit by a car in a driveway but I also do not
want them playing in my driveway.



That is a tad frightening. How old are your kids?


We have a nice amount of lawn for 2 kids to play in and that is the only
place I want them. We go out, when they do not obey me we go back in.



When they don't obey WHAT precisely?

They run towards the road we go in they get spanked and then we explain
why and reinforce it by reminding them that mommy and Daddy do not want
them Dead.



They probablydont have the first earthly idea what dead is and no amount of
yammering will explain it the way you mean it.


Oh and I am trying to figure out a way to work around the no Fence rule..
maybe getting something that comes down when not in use or something.. I
don't know.

Tori


Get the books I reference above. Really.


  #19  
Old July 10th 07, 12:52 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Stephanie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 693
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


"0:-]" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky
wrote:

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.


When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end.


Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to
understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with
animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped,
quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort,
possibly, but not hitting.

Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some
area, in a 'safe' area. Works.

I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.


A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but
randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he
hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when
there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for
in thugs to use.



Incidentally, and as an aside, IMO you do your argument disservice when you
use chategorizations like despot and thug. The vast majority of people who
spank, and I daresay even go farther than that, need to be REACHED not
condemned.

"Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.


Time-outs are pointless. I do not believe in them. They do not get the
desired result all that often.

The trick is to do a 'time-in,' because do you not want the child to
both understand what they did, and to find out why they did it, (say
wanting little sister's toy, or YOUR affection when sister has been
getting it), and finally the alternative's the CHILD may use to get
what he desires in an appropriate way?

That IS what good citizenship is about. Getting your needs met without
intruding on other's rights.

Social skills.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.


Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life.


I'm not sure I see the connection.

Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience.


Children chose to be here, as YOUR child?

How can a child OWE anything at all? You can offer to TRADE with them,
so that you BOTH owe something, and thus you would be teaching them
the skills they need to function and flourish in society, as good
productive citizens.

The idea our child OWES us something because we GIVE him or her
something, such as life, needs closer examination against strict logic
and moral principles.

I cannot GIVE someone something, and then DEMAND they give something
in return, normally. It would be called coercion.

Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.


Before they are legally able to contract? Before they can own the
means of their own upkeep? Before they have the education to get a job
that would provide something near what they have with you?

It appears you do not respect them as human beings, and wish only to
oppress with a harshness YOU would not tolerate, and would have
someone arrested if they did those things to you.

If someone spanked you, would you not charge them with assault, and
could you not take them to civil court for both physical (if you
suffered any) and emotional damage and collect a large settlement?

If I used a belt on you, to 'teach you a lesson,' of respect for me
because I gave you say some meals and allowed you the use of my car
and you called me names in a moment of upset with me over something,
would I have a valid legal argument in court, when charged with
assault, and in civil court, when you claimed I injured you, because I
WILLINGLY GAVE YOU THINGS?

Don't think so.

And trust me, the child often, developmentally, goes through a period
of being little legal analysts, and will figure out both the skewed
logic and legal fiction perpetrated on them...and interestingly
enough, that realization comes at about the time we start having
really serious trouble with our teens. Or even preteens. Mostly by
nine or ten they have figured out our duplicities (remember when YOU
were a kid and caught on your parents were operating in a loop of, 'do
as I say not as I do?').

They don't know quite what to do with that knowledge, but add to that
you having spanked them before since they were little, and possibly a
spank or two now, and you have 'Trouble in River City,' my friend.

And trombones won't fix it.

Respect between humans is gained by ethical and logical negotiations,
even with a child. Starting even before they know what you are doing.

We have to lay down the patterns we want later.

Do we want a pattern of negotiations (we later will want our teen to
use with us) by say, taking the child out to the car when they burn
out in the supermarket, then going back when they have cried it out
and are under control...or do we want a pattern of struggle,
manipulation, anger used not to vent, but to MAKE the other person to
what we want?

It is estimated that 80% of all learning is by modeling.

Kane



  #20  
Old July 10th 07, 12:58 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Stephanie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 693
Default What the Research Says About Physical Punishment


"0:-]" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky
wrote:

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.


When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end.


Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to
understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with
animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped,
quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort,
possibly, but not hitting.

Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some
area, in a 'safe' area. Works.

I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.


A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but
randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he
hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when
there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for
in thugs to use.

"Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.


Time-outs are pointless. I do not believe in them. They do not get the
desired result all that often.

The trick is to do a 'time-in,' because do you not want the child to
both understand what they did, and to find out why they did it, (say
wanting little sister's toy, or YOUR affection when sister has been
getting it), and finally the alternative's the CHILD may use to get
what he desires in an appropriate way?

That IS what good citizenship is about. Getting your needs met without
intruding on other's rights.




There is nothing so simple as a spanking replacement technique which is why
it is difficult to communicate wih spankers. They want an answer to well
what do I do instead. You cannot replace spanking with magic othe
rpunishment X with a positive parenting approach. The toolbox includes a lot
more tools, and requires more skill and understanding to choose the right
tool for the job. It is HARD. And it is particularly hard when you are
changing your approach at first and replacing what is often ingrained
habits.

But really, when all is said and done, humans cannot always get their
"needs" met whether or not they are intruding on other's rights. Children
have to learn that some things cant be had also.

Social skills.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.


Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life.


I'm not sure I see the connection.

Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience.


Children chose to be here, as YOUR child?



I think children owe their parents' NOTHING. *If* there is a debt to pay, it
is the parents who foot thebill. But since it is simply the natural order,
the idea of owing seems a silly one to me.


 




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