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#21
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
In article , H Schinske says...
In , H Schinske wrote: *It really ticked me off that Meg Murry O'Keefe turned into nothing but the *mother of a big family. It's not that she has a big family, it's that she and responded: !!! pregnant pause I like that - "pregnant pause" :-) OK, well, I have to say I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that. Nothing but the mother of a big family? Because.... what? Being the mother of a big family is bupkes? Doing nothing else except mothering a large family means you aren't contributing to society, or aren't fulfilled by definition, or...??? I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was talking about the particular case of Meg Murry, who is presented in the first couple of books as a girl with the potential to do math or science work at the Nobel Prize level. Which, in my view, does not mean that she 'should' do math or science or that she even would be happy doing so. It just isn't reasonable to suppose that she could suppress all that side of herself just because she has kids. She might not have been able to work in as singleminded a fashion, but there should be some indication that she is still basically the same person, in the way that Calvin is obviously still himself only older. If she had pursued Nobel-calibre work, she would likely have to suppress that side of herself that apparently wanted to do the consuming enterprise of raising a large family. It works both ways (like you alluded to below). I guess the question I have is, not having read these books, what was the path to her adulthood decisions? I would be just as upset if she had suppressed all the warm, human, family-loving side of herself to be a great physicist and nothing but a great physicist. (Note: not saying she would have *had* to have kids to maintain this side of herself, either.) My grandmother got her BA in math at a time when very few women were math majors (or even went to college). I don't feel upset that she then married a doctor and settled down to be a small-town wife and mother, because she was happy with that and didn't appear stifled at all. But the difference is that while she was a gifted woman, and in these days might well have made a career in the sciences, I very much doubt that she was headed for earthshattering discoveries. She didn't have to change who she was. My mother had six kids, and naturally raising us was one of her greatest life accomplishments, but she was always a doctor, and always a writer, and that was just the way it was. And that's how Meg Murry's mother is presented (remember the stew on the Bunsen burner and all that), so it seems strange to me that Meg would do something so different. Well, coming from my POV as a person with an engineering PhD as recently as 1988, I know I *have* made specific decisions which meant I had to set aside the career path others presumed I was on (academic, and/or technology management) to be able to also be a mother. Knowing how it feels inside, I can see myself, if I were married to a man who wanted a large family, possibly making the decision Meg Murray apparently made. The only other question that occurs to me is that there may be a justified suspicion that, whatever a real woman like myself might have decided to do given her array of talents and desires, this ficitonal character made this decision in order to fit with what was expected for a female fictional character. Was she the mother of a large family because the author coudlnt' consider a different adult life for the character and be beleivable or sell books? Banty |
#22
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
In ,
H Schinske wrote: *OK, well, I have to say I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that. *Nothing but the mother of a big family? Because.... what? Being the mother *of a big family is bupkes? Doing nothing else except mothering a large *family means you aren't contributing to society, or aren't fulfilled by *definition, or...??? * *I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was talking about the particular case of *Meg Murry, who is presented in the first couple of books as a girl with the *potential to do math or science work at the Nobel Prize level. It just isn't Yeah, ok. I have science awards out the wazoo and was given some pretty interesting offers with respect to biomedical research prior to my becoming a part-time general practicioner and mostly SAHM. So I relate to Meg, and I sort of felt attacked by your comment (although I am sure you did not intend to say anything offensive). -h. -- hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large |
#23
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
In article ,
Banty wrote: In article , H Schinske says... In , H Schinske wrote: *It really ticked me off that Meg Murry O'Keefe turned into nothing but the *mother of a big family. It's not that she has a big family, it's that she and responded: !!! pregnant pause I like that - "pregnant pause" :-) OK, well, I have to say I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that. Nothing but the mother of a big family? Because.... what? Being the mother of a big family is bupkes? Doing nothing else except mothering a large family means you aren't contributing to society, or aren't fulfilled by definition, or...??? I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was talking about the particular case of Meg Murry, who is presented in the first couple of books as a girl with the potential to do math or science work at the Nobel Prize level. Which, in my view, does not mean that she 'should' do math or science or that she even would be happy doing so. It just isn't reasonable to suppose that she could suppress all that side of herself just because she has kids. She might not have been able to work in as singleminded a fashion, but there should be some indication that she is still basically the same person, in the way that Calvin is obviously still himself only older. If she had pursued Nobel-calibre work, she would likely have to suppress that side of herself that apparently wanted to do the consuming enterprise of raising a large family. It works both ways (like you alluded to below). But her mom is presented as having won a Nobel Prize for work she accomplished while raising four children. So in this author's world, it's achievable (though whether it's achievable in reality is quite another question, to which the answer is probably no for a lot of complicated reasons). And it looked from the earlier books like Meg was on a similar path, so the question is why the author took away the potential "extraordinary career" part of her persona. Not whether the path she gave her was a worthy one. |
#25
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:01:56 EST, Elizabeth Gardner
wrote: And so much was made of Meg's parents working as a professional team, so I do think it's a little strange that Calvin and Meg didn't go for the same sort of arrangement. They did. All citations below from A House Like A Lotus, Laurel-Leaf edition, 1984. Narrator is 16yo Polly (born Polyhymnia). Page 10 of Laurel-Leaf edition "our parents taught us, and learning was fun" "they made [tests] seem like games. Page 11 "if Mother's in the lab helping Daddy work out an equation" Page 24 "Daddy's labs, with cases of starfish and lizards and squid and various kinds of octupuses and a medium-size computer for Mother" Page 81-82, discussion between Polly and Max (adult friend) M: "She's been a good mother to all of you, but it's beginning to wear on you. She's got a fine brain, and not enough chance to use it." P: "She helps Daddy a lot in the lab, does all the computer stuff." ... P: "She's going to finish her Ph.D. as soon as Rosy's in school." M: "Your Uncle Sandy told me that your mother suffered as an adolescent because her own mother was beautiful and successful in the world of science - didn't she win a Nobel Prize?" ... M: "Your mother felt insuficient because of your grandmother and she didn't want the same thing to happen to you, to make you feel you had to compete. So she's held herself back, and it's beginning to tell. She iwill/i get to her own work, eventually, but eventually no doubt seems a long time away." I agree that the Mother in the Poly/Charles books doesn't show any signs of Meg's awkwardness and passion. That may be due to the children's viewpoint as much as anything. Louise |
#26
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
Colleen ) wrote:
She is the same person. Why is a career outside the home necessary to prove you are the same person? I *never* said that. I said that she seemed to be suppressing a whole side of herself. She did not seem like a complete person compared to who she was in the early books. This is all 100% specific to how I read *her* character. I don't care whether she actually has a PhD or actually does paid work in her field. I'm talking about her concept of herself. I am a stay-at-home mom myself, by the way, and so was my mother after I was three. I don't even remember her as a *working* physician. --Helen |
#27
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
Becoming "nothing but the mother of a large family" requires a great
deal of sacrifice. No guts, no glory. Moms don't get credit for the work that they do at home. There are times that managing a large family makes me feel as if my brain has rotted away. I HAVE lost a great deal of my technical knowledge, as I am busy managing other things. This may be true for the fictional mom as well. Sandi H Schinske wrote: "dragonlady" wrote That's one of the problems I have with some of the "classics"; I know they were a product of their times, but many of them ARE sexist -- there are so few with decent female characters. Women are too often defined by their relationship to a man (wife/mother/daughter), and too seldom are interesting characters in themelves. How about A Wrinkle in Time and the rest of the books in that series, then? It really ticked me off that Meg Murry O'Keefe turned into nothing but the mother of a big family. It's not that she has a big family, it's that she doesn't seem to do ANYTHING else, her husband does all the scientific stuff. She doesn't seem anything like the girl she started out as. --Helen |
#28
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
"Howard Sage" wrote in message om... What are some current interesting sci fi books that a bright 11 yo might enjoy? Thanks in advance. Howard Heinlein's Juveniles (Have Spacesuit, will travel, Citizen of the Galaxy, Red Planet, Star Beast, Pokadyne of Mars, Farmer in the Sky, The Rolling Stones, and a lot more). Avoid the Future History series, as these get quite sexual. Piers Anthony Xanth series (more fantasy than sci-fi), Robert Asprin's Phule's Company series and Myth Adventures series (the latter more fantasy than the former). Many of the Golden Age authors, such as Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, etc. |
#29
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Sci-Fi book recommendations for 11 yo
"Donna Metler" wrote in message ...
"Howard Sage" wrote in message om... What are some current interesting sci fi books that a bright 11 yo might enjoy? Thanks in advance. Howard Heinlein's Juveniles (Have Spacesuit, will travel, Citizen of the Galaxy, Red Planet, Star Beast, Pokadyne of Mars, Farmer in the Sky, The Rolling Stones, and a lot more). Avoid the Future History series, as these get quite sexual. Piers Anthony Xanth series (more fantasy than sci-fi), Robert Asprin's Phule's Company series and Myth Adventures series (the latter more fantasy than the former). Many of the Golden Age authors, such as Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, etc. Depending on the 11 year old (I read the first of these at 11), I would recommend Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of Time" and "He, She and It". They're not the typical sci-fi stuff (lead females, for one, unlike a lot of what's out there, even the good stuff), but are quite good. ***WARNING***, though - there is sexual content. That's why I'd say it depends of the 11 year old. It's not overtly graphic (or gratuitous), but it's there. |
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