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What makes no-spank so unstable?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 7th 06, 04:39 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

A latter day Much Ado About Nothing might adequately describe the
situation. Only, this play would be a tragedy and all the scheming
would result in ruination of the very thing they proposed to save.

Another appropriate title might be Don't Mess with Mother Nature. This
would be the story of a small group of social scientists obsessed with
creating families they could have power over. As with Dr.
Frankenstein, their brilliant minds would get the better of them and
the emotionally malformed children would be nothing like they
envisioned. In time, quite naturally, the creatures of their creation
reject their creators and return to the old ways of doing things. The
social scientists would be remembered as ogres and monsters in stories
told to future generations of children.

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!

  #2  
Old April 7th 06, 06:41 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

Opinions wrote:
A latter day Much Ado About Nothing might adequately describe the
situation. Only, this play would be a tragedy and all the scheming
would result in ruination of the very thing they proposed to save.

Another appropriate title might be Don't Mess with Mother Nature. This
would be the story of a small group of social scientists obsessed with
creating families they could have power over. As with Dr.
Frankenstein, their brilliant minds would get the better of them and
the emotionally malformed children would be nothing like they
envisioned. In time, quite naturally, the creatures of their creation
reject their creators and return to the old ways of doing things. The
social scientists would be remembered as ogres and monsters in stories
told to future generations of children.

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!


Children who are raised using other methods of teaching and discipline
do far better then spanked children. Mental health practitioners rarely
find children in their practices that were not spanked, and those are
children with psychiatric (physiological abnormalities) problems.

Spankers are so desperate that they, like lil 'o' just make up this crap
to try and support a failing agenda.

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

The only place left to reduce this horrendous insult to children be
assault and refusal to admit what it is, is in the home.

Spanking is the rotten core of families and societies that do not work.

Nation after nation has outlawed the practice. In the US state after
state takes paddling from the school house.

Still we have tortured children, dependent on parents, with NO recourse
against the pain and humiliation but to act up and act out further when
the chance arises, often against themselves and later against society.

More and more research confirms what we've always known, and why we have
laws against assault. Assault is destructive of a society. Whether the
victim is an adult or a child.

Kane



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
  #3  
Old April 7th 06, 11:07 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?


On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Hahaha! Violent crime peaked in 1994!

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Either you are very STUPID or just a very bad LIAR!

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

Oops! More lies:

* There have been substantial and significant increases in the
incidence of child abuse and neglect since the last national incidence
study was conducted in 1986.
* Under the Harm Standard definitions, the total number of abused and
neglected children was two-thirds higher in the NIS-3 than in the NIS-2.
This means that a child's risk of experiencing harm-causing abuse or
neglect in 1993 was one and one-half times the child's risk in 1986.
* Under the Endangerment Standard, the number of abused and neglected
children nearly doubled from 1986 to 1993. Physical abuse nearly doubled,
sexual abuse more than doubled, and emotional abuse, physical neglect, and
emotional neglect were all more than two and one-half times their NIS-2
levels.
* The total number of children seriously injured and the total number
endangered both quadrupled during this time.

Source:
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/stat...3.cfm#national

Doan


  #4  
Old April 7th 06, 11:36 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?



Opinions wrote:

(snip_

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.


There is nothing extensive or expensive about discipline without spanking.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.


Many, many countries have banned the practice of disciplinary spanking
children. Public approval of disciplinary spanking of children in the
USA is declining, as is the practice. Professional organizations of
child psychologists and pediatricians have drafted position statements
denouncing the practice. Things are changing, and your above paragraph
is nothing but denial of reality.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.


Really? I this why decades of research reveals no short-term benefits
over positive alternatives to spanking, and why longitudinal research
consistently identifies statistically significant association between
spanking and negative long-term variables?

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!


Hitting and hurting children in the name of discipline has nothing to do
with "the natural order of things." Other countries have successfully
banned corporal punishment, including spanking children, and the USA is
moving in that direction.

LaVonne


  #5  
Old April 7th 06, 11:39 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

You said in all, Kane, when you said " More and more research confirms
what we've always known, and why we have laws against assault. Assault
is destructive of a society. Whether the victim is an adult or a child."

LaVonne

0:- wrote:

Opinions wrote:

A latter day Much Ado About Nothing might adequately describe the
situation. Only, this play would be a tragedy and all the scheming
would result in ruination of the very thing they proposed to save.

Another appropriate title might be Don't Mess with Mother Nature. This
would be the story of a small group of social scientists obsessed with
creating families they could have power over. As with Dr.
Frankenstein, their brilliant minds would get the better of them and
the emotionally malformed children would be nothing like they
envisioned. In time, quite naturally, the creatures of their creation
reject their creators and return to the old ways of doing things. The
social scientists would be remembered as ogres and monsters in stories
told to future generations of children.

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!



Children who are raised using other methods of teaching and discipline
do far better then spanked children. Mental health practitioners rarely
find children in their practices that were not spanked, and those are
children with psychiatric (physiological abnormalities) problems.

Spankers are so desperate that they, like lil 'o' just make up this crap
to try and support a failing agenda.

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

The only place left to reduce this horrendous insult to children be
assault and refusal to admit what it is, is in the home.

Spanking is the rotten core of families and societies that do not work.

Nation after nation has outlawed the practice. In the US state after
state takes paddling from the school house.

Still we have tortured children, dependent on parents, with NO recourse
against the pain and humiliation but to act up and act out further when
the chance arises, often against themselves and later against society.

More and more research confirms what we've always known, and why we have
laws against assault. Assault is destructive of a society. Whether the
victim is an adult or a child.

Kane




  #6  
Old April 7th 06, 11:46 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?


Let me guess. According to you, a police striking you with his baton
is not assault but a parent spanking a child is, right? ;-)

Doan

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

You said in all, Kane, when you said " More and more research confirms
what we've always known, and why we have laws against assault. Assault
is destructive of a society. Whether the victim is an adult or a child."

LaVonne

0:- wrote:

Opinions wrote:

A latter day Much Ado About Nothing might adequately describe the
situation. Only, this play would be a tragedy and all the scheming
would result in ruination of the very thing they proposed to save.

Another appropriate title might be Don't Mess with Mother Nature. This
would be the story of a small group of social scientists obsessed with
creating families they could have power over. As with Dr.
Frankenstein, their brilliant minds would get the better of them and
the emotionally malformed children would be nothing like they
envisioned. In time, quite naturally, the creatures of their creation
reject their creators and return to the old ways of doing things. The
social scientists would be remembered as ogres and monsters in stories
told to future generations of children.

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!



Children who are raised using other methods of teaching and discipline
do far better then spanked children. Mental health practitioners rarely
find children in their practices that were not spanked, and those are
children with psychiatric (physiological abnormalities) problems.

Spankers are so desperate that they, like lil 'o' just make up this crap
to try and support a failing agenda.

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

The only place left to reduce this horrendous insult to children be
assault and refusal to admit what it is, is in the home.

Spanking is the rotten core of families and societies that do not work.

Nation after nation has outlawed the practice. In the US state after
state takes paddling from the school house.

Still we have tortured children, dependent on parents, with NO recourse
against the pain and humiliation but to act up and act out further when
the chance arises, often against themselves and later against society.

More and more research confirms what we've always known, and why we have
laws against assault. Assault is destructive of a society. Whether the
victim is an adult or a child.

Kane






  #7  
Old April 8th 06, 12:03 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Hahaha! Violent crime peaked in 1994!


A slight upward trend in an overall downward decline since 1973. Like I
said, 3 decades. Downward. Use the entire span. Now you are OBVIOUSLY
lying, as no one in their right mind could miss the entire chart end to
end from 30 years back.. Or could you be THIS stupid?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Either you are very STUPID or just a very bad LIAR!


Apparently you can't read charts, either. Check what I actually said and
what the chart shows.

It did NOT rise to previous levels and that was part of a continuing
downward trend. Just how stupid ARE you Doan.

Starting in 1973 about 44 per 1000, in 1981 a slight rise to 46, with
dips along the way. 86 a dip to 41, then a short sharp increase in 91,
close to the 81 levels, and a steep decline from there to 2004 of only
about 20 per thousand.

This does not include children under 12 either.

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.


You notice I said "trend" and not 30 years.


Oops! More lies:


Yes, you certainly don't ever run out of them. This is NOT a rate chart
and includes abuses that are NOT violent crimes.

* There have been substantial and significant increases in the
incidence of child abuse and neglect since the last national incidence
study was conducted in 1986.


Where's the rate per K?

* Under the Harm Standard definitions, the total number of abused and
neglected children was two-thirds higher in the NIS-3 than in the NIS-2.
This means that a child's risk of experiencing harm-causing abuse or
neglect in 1993 was one and one-half times the child's risk in 1986.


Neglect is not a "violent crime" for data collection purposes. You are
in my field of expertise, Doan. And wrong.

* Under the Endangerment Standard, the number of abused and neglected
children nearly doubled from 1986 to 1993. Physical abuse nearly doubled,
sexual abuse more than doubled, and emotional abuse, physical neglect, and
emotional neglect were all more than two and one-half times their NIS-2
levels.


Emotional abuse is not listed as a violent crime anywhere. Nor is neglect.

* The total number of children seriously injured and the total number
endangered both quadrupled during this time.


Notice it says total number seriously injured? I said abuse. And abuse
is more than just serious injury. Just how stupid are you.

With out the rate this means little.

Source:
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/stat...3.cfm#national


Rates, dummy. Rates.

Here is the 12 - 17 age violent crime victim rates. There is a current
upswing. Cause unknown at this time. I suspect changes in reporting
method....just as the DOJ chart you offered shows...they have switched
over during this time period and are mixing two methods.

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/beh4.asp
"Child stats" is drawing their figures from FBI-DOJ data.

"According to reports by victims, in 2003 the serious violent crime
offending rate was 15 crimes per 1,000 juveniles ages 12–17, totaling
375,000 such crimes involving juveniles. While this is higher than the
rate in 2002, it is a 71 percent drop from the 1993 peak."

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/i...timization.cfm
"Violent Crime Victimization
View as PDF (Best for Printing)

Headline

Violent crime victimization among adolescents has declined by more than
half since the early 1990s. Between 1994 and 2004, the victimization
rate declined for adolescents ages 12 to 15 from 118.6 per 1,000 to 49.7
per 1,000. For youth ages 16 to 19, the rate declined from 123.9 per
1,000 to 45.9 per 1,000. (See Figure 1) "

There some nice breakouts that do indeed strongly support my claim that
something significant are happen in the lives of these children that is
reducing violence rates so drastically.

I contend it's more and more children being treated respectfully. In
fact the teens being point out here would be among the first
beneficiaries of the reduction in school paddlings starting many years
back.

And those NUMBERS of child abuse victims you want to count.....

http://www.witnessjustice.org/news/stats.cfm
"More than 60 percent of child victims experience neglect. Almost 20
percent are physically abused; 10 percent are sexually abused. (U.S.
Department of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children &
Families, Child Maltreatment 2002 — 2004)"

So you have to reduce the NUMBER by 60%, hysterical dancing screeching
monkeyboy.

Doan


Next stupid claim please.

-0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
  #8  
Old April 8th 06, 12:15 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

Another real difficulty is the increasing tendency to downgrade certain
crimes to delude the public into think that the "authorities" have
everything under control. The goal is to make the statistics look
good. The game is to protect the pension rather than protecting the
public.

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Hahaha! Violent crime peaked in 1994!

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Either you are very STUPID or just a very bad LIAR!

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

Oops! More lies:

* There have been substantial and significant increases in the
incidence of child abuse and neglect since the last national incidence
study was conducted in 1986.
* Under the Harm Standard definitions, the total number of abused and
neglected children was two-thirds higher in the NIS-3 than in the NIS-2.
This means that a child's risk of experiencing harm-causing abuse or
neglect in 1993 was one and one-half times the child's risk in 1986.
* Under the Endangerment Standard, the number of abused and neglected
children nearly doubled from 1986 to 1993. Physical abuse nearly doubled,
sexual abuse more than doubled, and emotional abuse, physical neglect, and
emotional neglect were all more than two and one-half times their NIS-2
levels.
* The total number of children seriously injured and the total number
endangered both quadrupled during this time.

Source:
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/stat...3.cfm#national

Doan


  #9  
Old April 8th 06, 12:31 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?

Doan wrote:
Let me guess. According to you, a police striking you with his baton
is not assault but a parent spanking a child is, right? ;-)


I don't know if LaVonne reads your posts or they are filtered, but she
reads mine most likely, so I'll be happy to answer.

This have been explained so many times to you it feels like endlessly.

One - people do NOT generally spank to subdue or in self defense against
an attacking fighting child. Spankers seem to universally claim they are
responsible and use it to "TEACH."

1.2 IF a parent used hitting for self protection and to subdue and
attacking child, it would be a teen and they might well BE CHARGED with
assault and have to go to court to beat the charges. They might succeed.
I had children in may care at one time, adolescent boys, that did in
fact, end up in jail for physical fights with their parents. The parents
weren't charged.

Two - police officers are breaking the law if they use any weapon of any
kind, including fists and feet, to "teach or punish" someone. They may
only use force for self defense or defense of others and to subdue, that
is, bring under control, a perpetrator or arrestee.

Now give us some more of your stupid lies about police batons.

Parent or police, misuse of their authority is illegal.

And shortly, as in other countries, and some schools in the US, you will
see this become illegal as well.

Spanking cannot be done without "striking" a child. Striking an adult is
assault. There is NO difference in this issue (unlike sex, you smart
ass) between the pain an adult feels and that a child feels...though
it's likely MORE for a child.

You are a proponent of assault children. If you ever do it hope you end
up in jail with inmates that have in fact been assaulted by parents.
Might finally wake you up, child.

Kane

Doan

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

You said in all, Kane, when you said " More and more research confirms
what we've always known, and why we have laws against assault. Assault
is destructive of a society. Whether the victim is an adult or a child."

LaVonne

0:- wrote:

Opinions wrote:

A latter day Much Ado About Nothing might adequately describe the
situation. Only, this play would be a tragedy and all the scheming
would result in ruination of the very thing they proposed to save.

Another appropriate title might be Don't Mess with Mother Nature. This
would be the story of a small group of social scientists obsessed with
creating families they could have power over. As with Dr.
Frankenstein, their brilliant minds would get the better of them and
the emotionally malformed children would be nothing like they
envisioned. In time, quite naturally, the creatures of their creation
reject their creators and return to the old ways of doing things. The
social scientists would be remembered as ogres and monsters in stories
told to future generations of children.

The twin factors that will eventually destroy no-spank are its heavy
reliance on rules and laws to make parents conform to the dictates of a
few esoteric eccentrics. The new rules then require extensive and
expensive alternatives that consume an inordinate amount of resources
in proportion to the results achieved.

Unlike ages old laws prohibiting murder, on which most people have
agreed over time, there is nothing approaching a consensus on no-spank
despite a mountain of propaganda declaring spanking to be evil.
Instead of linear progress in no-spank, the results more closely
resemble a logarithmic curve that flattens as it climbs.

Much like parents who spanks too much, the no-spank agenda has reached
the point of diminishing returns. Even enormous efforts yield very
little results. In some cases, as with vitriolic no-spanks, the
results are even counterproductive.

This is the fate of those who try to mess with the natural order of
things. They usually expend a great deal of energy and leave behind a
disaster!

Children who are raised using other methods of teaching and discipline
do far better then spanked children. Mental health practitioners rarely
find children in their practices that were not spanked, and those are
children with psychiatric (physiological abnormalities) problems.

Spankers are so desperate that they, like lil 'o' just make up this crap
to try and support a failing agenda.

We live in a country were, with a reduction in school paddlings and more
and more support for NOT spanking children, we enjoy a 30 year decline
in violent crime, schools, despite the media trying to make it look
otherwise, are the safest place for children when it comes to violent
victimization.

Even child abuse numbers have a downward trend.

The only place left to reduce this horrendous insult to children be
assault and refusal to admit what it is, is in the home.

Spanking is the rotten core of families and societies that do not work.

Nation after nation has outlawed the practice. In the US state after
state takes paddling from the school house.

Still we have tortured children, dependent on parents, with NO recourse
against the pain and humiliation but to act up and act out further when
the chance arises, often against themselves and later against society.

More and more research confirms what we've always known, and why we have
laws against assault. Assault is destructive of a society. Whether the
victim is an adult or a child.

Kane







--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
  #10  
Old April 8th 06, 12:41 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What makes no-spank so unstable?



On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:
You are a proponent of assault children. If you ever do it hope you end
up in jail with inmates that have in fact been assaulted by parents.
Might finally wake you up, child.

Kane

Hahaha! You were the one that ADMITTED to assaulting your kid!

Doan

 




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