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Worth Revisiting
Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in
Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author of Pipi Longstocking stories.) "For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a switch, for the first time in his life. "She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.' "Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.' "She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd never use violence!" -- The danger to the life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their proximity to religion and its practitioners. -Ivan Gowch |
#2
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Worth Revisiting
Nice propaganda! Doan On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Ivan Gowch wrote: Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author of Pipi Longstocking stories.) "For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a switch, for the first time in his life. "She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.' "Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.' "She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd never use violence!" -- The danger to the life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their proximity to religion and its practitioners. -Ivan Gowch |
#3
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Worth Revisiting
Doan wrote in message ...
Nice propaganda! Yep, some of the best as opposed to the lies and sloppy information you folks provide. prop·a·gan·da ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prp-gnd) n. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause. Doan Thanks again for your help, and we happily continue to extend ours to you in hopes for a speedy recovery from your childhood trauma. Kane On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Ivan Gowch wrote: Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author of Pipi Longstocking stories.) "For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a switch, for the first time in his life. "She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.' "Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.' "She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd never use violence!" -- The danger to the life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their proximity to religion and its practitioners. -Ivan Gowch |
#4
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Worth Revisiting
Ivan,
I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach! I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their proximity to religion and its practitioners." Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of Biblical hitting! Good to see you on the ng. LaVonne Ivan Gowch wrote: Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author of Pipi Longstocking stories.) "For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a switch, for the first time in his life. "She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.' "Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.' "She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd never use violence!" -- The danger to the life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their proximity to religion and its practitioners. -Ivan Gowch |
#5
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Worth Revisiting
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:37:34 -0600, Carlson LaVonne
wrote: ==I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach! It's the single most moving anti-child-beating testimonial I've ever seen. Anyone who can read that and still think it's OK to deliberately hurt a child (like our spanking ****** friend Doan) is a sick puppy indeed (like our spanking ****** friend Doan) . ==I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the ==life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their ==proximity to religion and its practitioners." == ==Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be ==committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who ==consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the ==cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out ==parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and ==loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the ==website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of ==Biblical hitting! That may be so, and good for them. I stand by my words, though. I'm an atheist, and I find nothing in religion -- any religion -- that's true or worthwhile. Any moral or ethical lessons religion offers can be taught and learned in other ways -- ways that don't involve the supernatural and/or the wholly fantastical notion of punishment or reward after death. [rant mode on] I think it amounts to spiritual and psychological abuse to convince children that the supernatural is real, that there's some infinitely strong and good, or vengeful, being watching over them and their loved ones, only to have them discover later that it ain't so -- which is, I believe, a common human experience. Some people react to that realization -- perversely, it says here -- by becoming extreme in their religious faith, because the myths that they were force-fed early on have left them unable to tolerate the thought that there is really no heavenly eye watching over them, and that the life they're living is the only one they're going to get. So they reject what their eyes and ears tell them, and become fanatics. Children rely on their parents, first and foremost, to explain the universe to them and I'm convinced it damages their critical and logical faculties to be made to believe something that just ain't so. (No, I don't believe telling kids Santa Claus is real, either.) The fact that an apparently disproportionate percentage of religious folks have a harsh, punitive and uncompromising attitude towards children is so obvious, we needn't dwell on it here. All in all, I think people grow up healthier, stronger, smarter and more able to think independently if they have nothing to do with religion, and that religion is a risk factor for children that wise parents avoid, as they avoid telling their children that there's a monster under their bed who will gobble them up if they're not asleep by 8 p.m. And if all that weren't enough . . . religion is complicated -- so complicated its study has historically attracted some of the best minds in every generation. The questions involved in religion are so complex, most people don't know what they are, let alone have a clue as to the answers. It's a subject fit for the consideration of adults, who are able to bring some education and life experience to bear on it. Asking children to understand religion is absurd. Requiring that they accept it without understanding is, I think, just plain wrong. [rant mode off] It's a pleasure to schmooze with you again, LaVonne, as always. Hope you and yours are well. -Ivan |
#6
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Worth Revisiting
Ivan,
I agree with your "rant!" All I'm saying is that I now see religion becoming more open to alternatives and I see religion, including those individuals who who consider themselves born-again christians rejecting the notion of child-hitting for more gentle and kind parenting. Christians base their practice on the Bible, and the New Testament, never advocated hitting a child in the name of discipline. If a "Christian" wants to justify child hitting by Old Testament advice, especially Proverbs, he/she will need to go through a process of selective interpretation. Hey, I want to give recognition to anything that helps a child! LaVonne Ivan Gowch wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:37:34 -0600, Carlson LaVonne wrote: ==I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach! It's the single most moving anti-child-beating testimonial I've ever seen. Anyone who can read that and still think it's OK to deliberately hurt a child (like our spanking ****** friend Doan) is a sick puppy indeed (like our spanking ****** friend Doan) . ==I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the ==life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their ==proximity to religion and its practitioners." == ==Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be ==committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who ==consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the ==cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out ==parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and ==loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the ==website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of ==Biblical hitting! That may be so, and good for them. I stand by my words, though. I'm an atheist, and I find nothing in religion -- any religion -- that's true or worthwhile. Any moral or ethical lessons religion offers can be taught and learned in other ways -- ways that don't involve the supernatural and/or the wholly fantastical notion of punishment or reward after death. [rant mode on] I think it amounts to spiritual and psychological abuse to convince children that the supernatural is real, that there's some infinitely strong and good, or vengeful, being watching over them and their loved ones, only to have them discover later that it ain't so -- which is, I believe, a common human experience. Some people react to that realization -- perversely, it says here -- by becoming extreme in their religious faith, because the myths that they were force-fed early on have left them unable to tolerate the thought that there is really no heavenly eye watching over them, and that the life they're living is the only one they're going to get. So they reject what their eyes and ears tell them, and become fanatics. Children rely on their parents, first and foremost, to explain the universe to them and I'm convinced it damages their critical and logical faculties to be made to believe something that just ain't so. (No, I don't believe telling kids Santa Claus is real, either.) The fact that an apparently disproportionate percentage of religious folks have a harsh, punitive and uncompromising attitude towards children is so obvious, we needn't dwell on it here. All in all, I think people grow up healthier, stronger, smarter and more able to think independently if they have nothing to do with religion, and that religion is a risk factor for children that wise parents avoid, as they avoid telling their children that there's a monster under their bed who will gobble them up if they're not asleep by 8 p.m. And if all that weren't enough . . . religion is complicated -- so complicated its study has historically attracted some of the best minds in every generation. The questions involved in religion are so complex, most people don't know what they are, let alone have a clue as to the answers. It's a subject fit for the consideration of adults, who are able to bring some education and life experience to bear on it. Asking children to understand religion is absurd. Requiring that they accept it without understanding is, I think, just plain wrong. [rant mode off] It's a pleasure to schmooze with you again, LaVonne, as always. Hope you and yours are well. -Ivan |
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