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#11
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
Abi wrote:
Many thanks everyone for your advice - I can see how salaries dont go as far today as they used to in the past. I think part of the reason is that people think they *need* all sorts of things that they really only *want*. A frugal couple (not us :-D ) can live on one income. You just have to choose what is most important to you. [snip] I can understand my partner's fear of being the sole breadwinner aswell - but I have stated all along that if he wanted to trade places with me then this would be acceptable to me as I would rather he be happy and also that our child is being looked after by him as opposed to a stranger. Of course, your child will not be looked after by a stranger if you choose that route, because you will get to know your care provider quite well, even before you place your child in their care. I just cant believe the low status full time parenting is given in general though. It is a really important job - one that impacts on society as a whole, and yet it's completely `unpaid'! It's also something entered into quite voluntarily, ideally at least. If being a parent is something you really and truly do want, you should be prepared to make some sort of sacrifice at some point down the line, don't you think? Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8 |
#12
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
"Abi" wrote in message om... Many thanks everyone for your advice - I can see how salaries dont go as far today as they used to in the past. Well, I think that as much as that, the difference today has to do with our lifestyle. In the past, a family of 3 or 4 kids tended to live in a much smaller house than we live in nowadays (a 1000-1200 foot 3 bedroom 1 bath house vs. today's 2000 or 2500 sf 3/4 bedroom house with a family room and 2 1/2 baths). Also, most families had one TV, one car, one telephone line, no computers, etc etc. Our lifestyle today (well, what is more typical) costs more because we have lots more STUFF. We tend to eat out more than our parents and grandparents did as young adults, etc etc. So I'm not sure it is so much that salaries don't go as far, but that we have much more expectations of material things that we want. |
#13
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
Scott wrote:
Abi wrote: I just cant believe the low status full time parenting is given in general though. It is a really important job - one that impacts on society as a whole, and yet it's completely `unpaid'! It's also something entered into quite voluntarily, ideally at least. If being a parent is something you really and truly do want, you should be prepared to make some sort of sacrifice at some point down the line, don't you think? Since it is a choice, not a given, I couldn't help wondering who it was the OP thought should be the one to pay her. I'm not being snotty here, honest; I'm just not sure she's fully fathoming the implications of her statement. I took 4 months of unpaid leave to stay home with my daughter -- which was exactly how long my company would continuing paying my (and her) medical insurance. I then worked a four-day week (33 hours) until she started kindergarten. At that point, my daughter begged me to go back to work Fridays and let her attend afterschool care on that day, too...since that was when they finished off their art projects! beeswing |
#14
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
In article , Scott wrote:
Abi wrote: I can understand my partner's fear of being the sole breadwinner aswell - but I have stated all along that if he wanted to trade places with me then this would be acceptable to me as I would rather he be happy and also that our child is being looked after by him as opposed to a stranger. Of course, your child will not be looked after by a stranger if you choose that route, because you will get to know your care provider quite well, even before you place your child in their care. Actually, many of the most common options, and even some of the best options, do require putting your child into the care of a "stranger". Even the best daycare centers have turnover in staff. Small daycare, where there is only one provider, is often not as good an option, as there is no backup if the provider is ill or in a bad mood. A good daycare center has enough staff and low enough turnover that most of the staff will be familiar to you and the child, even if an occasional new provider comes in. Of course, if your job is flexible enough (and pays enough), you may be able to have a nanny care for your child in your own home, which gives you greater oversight. -- Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics Affiliations for identification only. |
#15
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
Abi wrote:
[...] In part I feel they have made me feel guilty for considering working at the same time as caring for children simply because they didn't do it [...] The wonderful thing about "feminism" is that you can make a choice. You are not limited by what "society" deems acceptable, but by what you and your partner want and believe is the best solution. You should not feel guilty for working and you should not feel guilty for staying home. I suppose if the worst comes to the worst I can use my savings to afford the ability not to have to work to buy me a few more months longer of being able to stay at home and treat the exercise like a career break.... Yes and no... For us, the reason I work is so that we can put more away in retirement (not to depend on social security or the kids) and also put money away in their college funds. It's not just the immediate day-to-day mortgage payment plus food. I can understand my partner's fear of being the sole breadwinner aswell - but I have stated all along that if he wanted to trade places with me then this would be acceptable to me as I would rather he be happy and also that our child is being looked after by him as opposed to a stranger. Well, we have a wonderful nanny whom we found by advertising in the newspaper. DS (9 months) loves her and laughs and is very happy with her. I do not pretend that she is my surrogate, but for now, this is the best childcare option for us. I have plans to cut down to part-time work once DS (and maybe other kids) goes to pre-school and up, just because I do want to be there when they come home from school. I just cant believe the low status full time parenting is given in general though. It is a really important job - one that impacts on society as a whole, and yet it's completely `unpaid'! Well, only amongst people who do not have children, I believe. Anyone who has children knows exactly how important and "high" status it is. And what's wrong with it being "unpaid"? Most important work in the world is done by volunteers. That is beside the point. Having a child is a lifetime sentence of worrying and guilt. You will feel guilty for staying at home and you will feel guilty for going to work. You just have to come to terms with it -- in your mind, and with your partner. -- Anita -- |
#16
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
Abi wrote in :
[snip] I am a bit confused of late and wondered if anyone can advise? I am just about to have my first child, I am incredibly excited and looking forward to raising her, seeing this as a more important `job' to me, than `going out to earn a living'. Having worked in a variety of jobs/careers for the last 11 years, I now want to enjoy being a housewife and child carer and put as much effort into this as I would anything else. I will maintain other interests during this time and may try a few working-from-home ideas for `pocket money', but for at least the next 2 to 5 years I want to make being a mother a priority, choosing to be the main carer of my child for what is, after all, only a few short years. I suppose this should all be a natural normal way of thinking, but my problem is down to my partner. My partner thinks that staying at home being a housewife/carer is `taking the easy way out', and plus he is worried about taken on a greater responsibility for ensuring we have enough money. He also thinks it isn't going to be stimulating enough for me. First of all, I'm a UK mum who stopped work when my oldest was born, nearly 10 years ago. First of all, being a full-time mum is not easy, when the kids are little. Depending on where you live, you may find lots of other AH mums, or none at all. Anyway, why shouldn't you "take the easy way out"? For the stimulation side, well, a lot of people find themselves getting very wrapped up in their babies, and not *wanting* much in the way of other stimulation. I have a degree, and whenever I worked, I worked with people with PhDs and MScs, so I was used to a very intellectual working environment. However, I found that debates on usenet provided most of the stimulation I needed. I also found (and I'm now sure this was biological/hormonal, not due to my environment) that I suffered from what the people on mkp call 'preg-nesia' until my youngest reached about 4.5yo. At that point, I suddenly got my old brain back, with my old quick-wittedness, and it is only in the last year that being AH, in the company of other AH mums isn't really enough. So you might find that being at home is all the stimulation you need when you are in the baby stage. I wonder if his mum was at home, and how she felt about it. He won't be able to remember how she felt when he was a baby, but as he grew up, she may have been feeling very trapped. I do know people who have part-time jobs at home: selling things like tupperware (although there is a huge variety of similar things). If you could set up a plan, then maybe that would reassure your husband. However, his fear of being the sole breadwinner does seem reasonable. Later on you talk about using 'my' savings. Now you have a shared responsibility to another person, the two of you have a shared financial responsibility to each other as well. The money issue is one the two of you have to come to an agreement about, whether you are married or not. Maybe you could show him ways that being at home would enable you to save money: not forgetting that child care costs could be considerable. [snip] I also want to know how women in the past - even as recently as 20 years ago - never seemed to get the pressure to go out to work and bring in half the finances? Were men happier to have this arrangement or are they actually happier to have more financial stability? If the latter - why didn't more women go out to work at this time? It depends on where you lived: I do know that one of my sister's friends had a nanny: her mother was a hospital consultant at a time when that was almost unknown. [snip] Mom staying home with the kids has historically been a middle and upperclass phenomenon anyway--during my grandma's first marriage and after her divorce in the 1920s, she ran a stenography service in L.A. to It is a very short-lived phenomenon as well. Housework - including the growing of vegetables and preparing of food - took up a significant amount of time. Pre-Victorian times a woman at home was making a very big contribution to the household, and her presence was needed. I've been reading a 1914s book about "married woman's work" (among the working classes): it was common for a factory worker to have a two-hour lunch break, so she could go home and prepare the midday meal. [snip] Many thanks everyone for your advice - I can see how salaries dont go as far today as they used to in the past. I didn't realise it was more common than I first thought for women to go out to work, in the past few decades. I have been just looking at the example of my housewife mother and her friends who raised children in the 1960s and early 1970s and suppose thought everyone did this (full time carer/not producing any income). In part I feel they have made me feel guilty for considering working at the same time as caring for children simply Your mother will make you feel guilty about lots of things ("that child needs a vest", "he needs water to drink" "why isn't he in bed: its 6pm"). [snip] I suppose if the worst comes to the worst I can use my savings to afford the ability not to have to work to buy me a few more months longer of being able to stay at home and treat the exercise like a career break.... I really think you need to review how you see your finances. Your savings are not really 'yours' anymore, but should belong to the family unit, no matter whose name it is on the account. It shouldn't be a case of supporting 'you' but supporting his 'partner and child'. Why don't you suggest that the two of you review your budgets, and that if you go out to work, *he* pays for childcare, and you take on some of the other financial responsibilities. [snip] I just cant believe the low status full time parenting is given in general though. It is a really important job - one that impacts on society as a whole, and yet it's completely `unpaid'! I think it is a combination of factors. The mothers that people in the media know are probably almost all working mothers, and they probably know very few of the other kind. Throw in people like Cherie Blair, who probably would go nuts at home, and you see why the labour party want everyone to choose a 'work-life balance' that has to include 'work'. -- Penny Gaines UK mum to three |
#17
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
Just adding my two cents...
First off, I think that regardless what decision a woman makes in this situation, there are folks who will second-guess you and guilt you will put on yourself. IMO, and assuming that you have the financial ability and really most of us do, assuming we are willing to make drastic changes such as moving to a more affordable home, etc, it erally comes down to this: what choice will leave you best capable to be a good parent? For some, that means staying at home. For others who have less patience with a small child, it may mean working outside the home. For still others, who may hav the patience for child care but who will resent leaving a fulfilling position at work, working outside the home may still be the best solution. That said, my personal opinion on this is that our very young children (infants/toddlers) need us far less than our pre-teen and teenage children do. A baby's needs are fairly simple and a good caregiver can meet those needs; if you are the caregiver at home and in the evenings, weekends etc., you will still bond completely to your child as his/her primary caregiver. But come age 10 or 11, when every day at school can bring some sort of milestone that a tween may have difficulty dealing with, I have found it's much more important to be the person who is at home when my son comes home from school. Working a different schedule (7-3 instead of 9-5) allows me to do that. YMMV, on this more than almost any other parenting choice. Good luck with your decision. |
#18
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
In article ,
"Tracey" wrote: "Abi" wrote in message om... Many thanks everyone for your advice - I can see how salaries dont go as far today as they used to in the past. Well, I think that as much as that, the difference today has to do with our lifestyle. In the past, a family of 3 or 4 kids tended to live in a much smaller house than we live in nowadays (a 1000-1200 foot 3 bedroom 1 bath house vs. today's 2000 or 2500 sf 3/4 bedroom house with a family room and 2 1/2 baths). Also, most families had one TV, one car, one telephone line, no computers, etc etc. Our lifestyle today (well, what is more typical) costs more because we have lots more STUFF. We tend to eat out more than our parents and grandparents did as young adults, etc etc. So I'm not sure it is so much that salaries don't go as far, but that we have much more expectations of material things that we want. But in fact, salaries don't go as far. I think what happened was that in the 1970s and 1980s, inflation and wage freezes (who else is old enough to remember those?) caused a cost-of-living gap. One salary couldn't quite cover it anymore, but two salaries (especially two equal salaries) were more than enough. So two-income families had more disposable income than the one-income family of 20 years earlier, though not as much more as the 1960s family would have had with two incomes. And to keep the economy cooking, their desire for more stuff had to be constantly fanned. So the bar keeps getting higher, unless you have the strength of mind to ignore the babble of commercial speech around you at all times and make your own decisions about what you need and want. But even if you opt for frugality, you probably can't equal the lifestyle of a typical early 1960s family on one average salary. |
#19
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
. But come age 10 or 11, when every day at school can bring some sort of milestone that a tween may have difficulty dealing with, I have found it's much more important to be the person who is at home when my son comes home from school. Working a different schedule (7-3 instead of 9-5) allows me to do that. Oh wow! I completely agree with your take on this - As my son (now 11) has grown up, it has become more and more important for me to be home and available when he gets in. He wants to talk about his day at secondary school, his changing feelings about his friends and girls in his class, his homework - etc etc..... He also has more freedom as his friends can come round and I can take my turn picking him and friends up from swimming, or whatever. Pat |
#20
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going out to work vs motherhood dilema
"beeswing" wrote in message
... Since it is a choice, not a given, I couldn't help wondering who it was the OP thought should be the one to pay her. I'm not being snotty here, honest; I'm just not sure she's fully fathoming the implications of her statement. I took 4 months of unpaid leave to stay home with my daughter -- which was exactly how long my company would continuing paying my (and her) medical insurance. I then worked a four-day week (33 hours) until she started kindergarten. At that point, my daughter begged me to go back to work Fridays and let her attend afterschool care on that day, too...since that was when they finished off their art projects! Our U.S. experience is not universal. It's my understanding that several European countries offer a social welfare "mother stipend," that is not means tested. From the page Odin - Norway's Social Security and Health Service: http://odin.dep.no/odin/engelsk/norw...dex-dok000-b-n -a.html "When pregnant, women who have been employed for at least six of the last ten months are entitled to a maternity leave with full pay, limited upwards to six times the basic national insurance sum. The mother can choose between 42 weeks of leave with full pay or 52 weeks with 78 per cent pay. Three weeks of this leave must be taken prior to the birth. Four weeks of the leave must be taken by the father (the paternity quota). " That's almost a year of full time pay after having a baby. Here's a link about the child raising benefit in Germany: http://www.bmgs.bund.de/downloads/01_Kindergeld.pdf While there is some means testing in Germany, apparently everyone is entitled to some benefit. In Norway, there does not seem to be any means testing for almost a year off with full pay! Best, Ann |
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