Moving DD to her bed..

Ack...DD, 3, has still been crawling inbed with me. I have let her all this
time but now that I am pregnant and she's over 3, it's really not a good
idea for the family anymore because she's getting to where she stays awake
way too late and it's affecting my sleep, and I want to enforce the rule- I
want her to go to bed at 7:30 and she simply won't do this in my bed without
me. I go at 10. Etc etc etc....I'm a believer in attachment parenting,
nursed and coslept with her, it's just time now, she's smart for her age and
just really ready for her bed, I can see this. But mainly, I'm ready for it
to happen.

How can I transition her without making it too hard on her? DD's
pediatrician is excllent-- well, he's **awesome**. He says it will be trying
for 2 weeks but that should do the trick, and simply put her in her bed at
7:30 and if she keeps getting up, put her back. She is not to leave her room
until after 7am unless she has to go to the bathroom. He said if she gets up
or is awake, playing with toys or whatever, let her, don't go in there- only
intervene when she comes out of the room, but when she comes out of the
room, every time, put her back immediately and consistently. She'll battle
it for a couple of weeks, he says.

So after dinner, at about 7p, we'll brush her teeth and take a bath and do
bedtime stories and I'm going to leave her at 7p. Sounds simple..until you
run this by DD. She knows every trick in the book. The oldest one is "But I
love you, I wanna sleep with you, I don't want to be alooooooone!" #2 is
"But I'm scared! There's a monster in my room." (Ped. says go in, look her
around, assure her it's not there, and put her back in bed, period, no
discussion). But #3 is the trump, she uses this ALL the time to avoid
getting in the dentists chair, the haircutter's chair, you name it. "But,
but..I have to go potty! I'll pee pee in my pants".

I got on this neverending cycle when she was nursing, with her nursing to
sleep and I am trying to figure out a way for baby #2 to be breastfed
without cosleeping. It made bedtime SO easy, until weaning, then cosleeping
was what made it easy for me or so I thought, until recently. It's out of
control and none of us are getting the sleep we need. So, this isn't a case
of a pediatrician being against attachment or cosleeping. It's a case of my
realizing things need to change for all of our own good. I'm ready, I am not
at all hesitant in wanting this to cease.

but easier said than done. My DD will come out of her room 88 times. The
pediatrician actually recommened using a gate, which she can climb, or
simply locking her door until she gets to sleep, then unlocking it before I
go to bed. I feel bad to do this because she will wail and scream and beat
on the door, but he has a point- she HAS to learn to stay in her room and
not roam the house at night, it's not safe for her to get out and roam
unsupervised, as childproof as things are. He's not saying to just lock her
up, he's saying she needs to learn so that I can just put her there and not
have to, but he thinks it's ok if nothing else works.

Any tips?? I will miss sleeping with her but she's so grown up now, not a
baby at all, and she's advanced enough to handle this, I mean, ALL kids this
age are fine in their beds. I need this fixed before baby #2 comes, and I
plan to transition baby #2 to a crib by 3-4 months old. DD never slept in
her crib. I thought she'd be lonely, or scarred or something, LOL. This is a
case of lived and learned. DD would have been fine in ehr crib, and just as
cuddled and nurtured. I did enjoy having her near though.

Any tips though, as DD is willful- VERY willful, and reasoning and
bargaining with her simply won't work, words do not work. "If you sleep in
your bed all night, you can eat whatever you want for breakfast" is not
where I want to go, but things like this don't entice DD anyway. She never
changes her behavior in order to get a food or a toy she wants. She's
stubborn. Bribing, not a chance. Not that I'd want to bribe anyway but it
has worked for some. One of my friends gave me this tip" "She goes to bed at
7:30, PUT her there, period. She gets up, carry her back. Period." But SO
easier said than done. This same friend had kids who just always slept in
their room anyway, so what's she talking about? She never had a hard time-
lol. Also I notice that her kids listen to verbal instructions, DD rebels.

I'm not letting her be in charge around here but this is still easier said
than done. Unless someone has a better way, I'm just going to have to
physically keep returning her to her room and pray that she develops the
habit or accepts the new rule soon.

"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
Ack...DD, 3, has still been crawling inbed with me. I have let her all
this time but now that I am pregnant and she's over 3, it's really not a
good idea for the family anymore because she's getting to where she stays
awake way too late and it's affecting my sleep, and I want to enforce the
rule- I want her to go to bed at 7:30 and she simply won't do this in my
bed without me. I go at 10. Etc etc etc....I'm a believer in attachment
parenting, nursed and coslept with her, it's just time now, she's smart
for her age and just really ready for her bed, I can see this. But mainly,
I'm ready for it to happen.

How can I transition her without making it too hard on her? DD's
pediatrician is excllent-- well, he's **awesome**. He says it will be
trying for 2 weeks but that should do the trick, and simply put her in her
bed at 7:30 and if she keeps getting up, put her back. She is not to leave
her room until after 7am unless she has to go to the bathroom. He said if
she gets up or is awake, playing with toys or whatever, let her, don't go
in there- only intervene when she comes out of the room, but when she
comes out of the room, every time, put her back immediately and
consistently. She'll battle it for a couple of weeks, he says.

First of all, you have to understand that although YOU are ready to have her
out of your bed, and you know that she is ready, this is not her idea, and
as far as she is concerned, she isn't ready, so she's going to fight it to
the end. It will not be easy, and there is no way to make it easy,
especially with her personality from the sounds of it. So the only solution
is to stick to it. Yes, she is going to get up 88 times the first bunch of
nights. Maybe even the first week. But if you stick it out, if you don't
engage her (negatively or positively), then eventually she will comprehend
that there is no benefit to getting out of her room, as all you do is bring
her right back. Eventually she will stop. You just have to have stronger
will power than her.

Part of the immediate issue may well be that she's used to going to bed at
10pm. So to suddenly try to put her to bed 3 hours earlier may be
pointless, as her clock is still set to late nights. You may have to try
putting her in her room at 9pm instead of 7 for a while. I don't know, but
it's worth a try. Of course that is going to wreck havoc with your evenings
for a while, but pretty much any time will do that for the first while,
since she seems to be so stubborn.

So after dinner, at about 7p, we'll brush her teeth and take a bath and do
bedtime stories and I'm going to leave her at 7p. Sounds simple..until you
run this by DD. She knows every trick in the book. The oldest one is "But
I love you, I wanna sleep with you, I don't want to be alooooooone!" #2 is
"But I'm scared! There's a monster in my room." (Ped. says go in, look her
around, assure her it's not there, and put her back in bed, period, no
discussion). But #3 is the trump, she uses this ALL the time to avoid
getting in the dentists chair, the haircutter's chair, you name it. "But,
but..I have to go potty! I'll pee pee in my pants".

As part of her bedtime routine, make sure she goes to the toilet. Let her
chose some stuffies to put in her bed as friends to keep her company. Then
check under the bed and in the closet for monsters. Proclaim the area free
of monsters. Then get a portable kids potty and put it in her room, or tell
her that she can leave her room to pee, but she has to do it by herself and
then go straight back to her room.

I got on this neverending cycle when she was nursing, with her nursing to
sleep and I am trying to figure out a way for baby #2 to be breastfed
without cosleeping. It made bedtime SO easy, until weaning, then
cosleeping was what made it easy for me or so I thought, until recently.
It's out of control and none of us are getting the sleep we need. So, this
isn't a case of a pediatrician being against attachment or cosleeping.
It's a case of my realizing things need to change for all of our own good.
I'm ready, I am not at all hesitant in wanting this to cease.

Again, you are ready to be done with it, but she isn't. This wasn't her
idea, so it's going to take longer than if she was ready and made the
decision. That doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means that it's going
to be a battle. Get out your battle gear and get ready!

but easier said than done. My DD will come out of her room 88 times. The
pediatrician actually recommened using a gate, which she can climb, or
simply locking her door until she gets to sleep, then unlocking it before
I go to bed. I feel bad to do this because she will wail and scream and
beat on the door, but he has a point- she HAS to learn to stay in her room
and not roam the house at night, it's not safe for her to get out and roam
unsupervised, as childproof as things are. He's not saying to just lock
her up, he's saying she needs to learn so that I can just put her there
and not have to, but he thinks it's ok if nothing else works.

I used a gate with both of my kids. We also sleep with our doors closed. I
put the gate up after I closed the door. When I go to bed, I always check
on the kids, and took the gate down. If your kid is a climber, use two
gates, one above the other. Let her know that if she stays in her room, you
won't put the gate up. If she comes out, the gate goes up. That way she
has some control. Personally speaking, I find the gate very effective,
because it very clearly teaches them that they can't leave their rooms, so
they stop trying. I've only had to use the gates for a month or two, tops.

Any tips?? I will miss sleeping with her but she's so grown up now, not a
baby at all, and she's advanced enough to handle this, I mean, ALL kids
this age are fine in their beds. I need this fixed before baby #2 comes,
and I plan to transition baby #2 to a crib by 3-4 months old. DD never
slept in her crib. I thought she'd be lonely, or scarred or something,
LOL. This is a case of lived and learned. DD would have been fine in ehr
crib, and just as cuddled and nurtured. I did enjoy having her near
though.

All kids are fine in their beds when they have been in their beds for a
while. I have a friend who co-slept (although not by design) and her 4.5
year old still refuses to be alone in his room. She finally got it so that
he knows that he is not allowed in her bed, but can sleep on a pallet on the
floor. So he starts in his room and comes in at 3am.

My kids are good at staying in their rooms and beds. Taylor comes in very
early in the morning (5-6am)and climbs in with us and then falls back
asleep, which works fine for us. If she is sick, she tends to wake up
around 2-3 and climb in, which we allow when she's sick, but as soon as
she's better, I take her back to bed at 3am. Many people I know who want
their kids out of their beds but are not successful at acheiving that, tend
to not want to "fight that battle" at 3am. But you know what? You have to
fight the battle if you want to win the battle. So regardless of the time,
you put them back in bed, and eventually they catch on that they don't get
to climb in with mommy, so why bother getting out of their own bed.

Any tips though, as DD is willful- VERY willful, and reasoning and
bargaining with her simply won't work, words do not work. "If you sleep in
your bed all night, you can eat whatever you want for breakfast" is not
where I want to go, but things like this don't entice DD anyway. She never
changes her behavior in order to get a food or a toy she wants. She's
stubborn. Bribing, not a chance. Not that I'd want to bribe anyway but it
has worked for some. One of my friends gave me this tip" "She goes to bed
at 7:30, PUT her there, period. She gets up, carry her back. Period." But
SO easier said than done. This same friend had kids who just always slept
in their room anyway, so what's she talking about? She never had a hard
time- lol. Also I notice that her kids listen to verbal instructions, DD
rebels.

It seems like everyone is recommending the same course of action. All you
can do is do it, consistently, and don't stop until she figures it out.

From her perspective, she wants to sleep with you, and she knows that if she
just sticks it out, on the 89th time, you'll give in. So she sticks it out.
You have trained her to keep at it. You need to use her own strategy.
Explain that she needs to sleep in her room, explain that every time she
gets up you're going to bring her straight back to her room, and then do it.
Do not fail, and do not give in. She's a stubborn kid, but where do you
think she got that from? Use your stubborness to win this battle. : )

I'm not letting her be in charge around here but this is still easier said
than done. Unless someone has a better way, I'm just going to have to
physically keep returning her to her room and pray that she develops the
habit or accepts the new rule soon.

Heck, most things with kids are easier said than done. The only other way
that I've heard that also seems to work is that you let her sleep on the
floor in your room. Once she is used to that, you move her pallet farther
and farther away from your bed, then down the hall, then into her room, then
up into her bed. This method can take months, but seems to be more gentle
and gets them used to the idea more slowly. Frankly, I've found that with
both of my kids, faster is better. They adjust quickly enough and it the
whole thing is over faster.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys -- 01/03/03
Addison Grace -- 09/30/04

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beyond the pale wrote:

But #3 is the trump, she uses this ALL the time to avoid
getting in the dentists chair, the haircutter's chair, you name it. "But,
but..I have to go potty! I'll pee pee in my pants".

You can call her bluff. You can put a little potty in her
room and tell her it's there in case she needs it. You could put
her in a Pull-Up. Now, the enterprising preschooler will make you
regret that by using the potty and then making a mess with it, or
by using the Pull-Up and changing it herself, but sometimes they're
just shocked enough that you called their bluff that they'll back
off that tactic.

I got on this neverending cycle when she was nursing, with her nursing to
sleep and I am trying to figure out a way for baby #2 to be breastfed
without cosleeping. It made bedtime SO easy, until weaning, then cosleeping
was what made it easy for me or so I thought, until recently. It's out of
control and none of us are getting the sleep we need.

I breastfed all three without co-sleeping in any regular
way. There are babies who are really hard to deal with without
co-sleeping, but in many cases it just isn't that bad. In the
very early going, I don't think it matters what you do. Co-sleep
if that's easier. I kept mine in our room for the first few
months or so to make it a bit easier while the night feedings were
more frequent and less predictable. I didn't always bother to
put them back in the cradle if it was after 3 or 4am.
When they were down to 1-2 night feedings, I'd move them
to their own room. I'd wake them to nurse when I went to bed to
give myself a decent opportunity for a good stretch of sleep, rather
than having them wake an hour after I fell asleep. Have a comfy
chair in their room for nursing. Always keep it dark and quiet.
I never turned on a light or talked/sang/read/etc. to them while they
were nursing at night.
I do think that co-sleeping tends to encourage snacking.
There's little disincentive on either side. Some babies are going
to snack no matter what you do, but you may well find that after
the first few months, you are getting up to nurse less frequently
than you imagine. Mine kept one night feeding for a loooong time
(around 15 months before they gave that up), but were generally
down to two night feedings by something in the range of 3-4 months
(IIRC--which I might not, since I have a brain like a sieve ;-) ).

but easier said than done. My DD will come out of her room 88 times. The
pediatrician actually recommened using a gate, which she can climb, or
simply locking her door until she gets to sleep, then unlocking it before I
go to bed. I feel bad to do this because she will wail and scream and beat
on the door, but he has a point- she HAS to learn to stay in her room and
not roam the house at night, it's not safe for her to get out and roam
unsupervised, as childproof as things are. He's not saying to just lock her
up, he's saying she needs to learn so that I can just put her there and not
have to, but he thinks it's ok if nothing else works.

We have one of those doorknob locks on DD's door, largely
just for safety. She also can climb or open a gate, but her hands
aren't big enough to manipulate the doorknob covers. She's quite
the adventurer, and we just couldn't afford to have her roaming the
house unsupervised in the middle of the night. We still have the
monitor on so that I know for sure I'll hear if she wakes and needs
someone.
I'm sure if you introduce a lock, she'll pitch a major fit.
Still, it's likely to be fairly short lived.

I'm not letting her be in charge around here but this is still easier said
than done. Unless someone has a better way, I'm just going to have to
physically keep returning her to her room and pray that she develops the
habit or accepts the new rule soon.

She will, if you are 100 percent consistent.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Jun 14, 8:59 am, "beyond the pale"
wrote:
Ack...DD, 3, has still been crawling inbed with me. I have let her all this
time but now that I am pregnant and she's over 3, it's really not a good
idea for the family anymore because she's getting to where she stays awake
way too late and it's affecting my sleep, and I want to enforce the rule- I
want her to go to bed at 7:30 and she simply won't do this in my bed without
me.lots of stuff snipped

You've already gotten a lot of good advice, so I'll just add a little
bit from our experiences with Alexander. He is a very stubborn child,
and very much the problem solver. Despite being in his own crib from
about 15 months until 2.5 years (well, we switched to the pack and
play at around 2, as he started climbing out of the crib, but he
couldn't get footing on the mesh of the pack and play), when we
switched him to a "big boy bed", we started running into this exact
problem. He was still waking regularly in the night (about 3 times a
night until age 3), and just climbing in bed with us. By this time, I
was so sleep deprived, that I was a really heavy sleeper, so wouldn't
even know he was there until 2 hours later (he was smart and avoided
Daddy's side of the bed since *he* would wake up). I really struggled
(because I was so tired) to get up and put him back. But I made myself
do it as soon as I knew he was there.

In addition, bedtime had always been a struggle, but as he couldn't
get out of bed before, we could walk in (silently), lay him back down,
and walk out (we did have to keep going back in because he's work
himself up until he vomited if we didn't). Once he was in a bed, he'd
sneak out (and man, did he learn how to be absolutely silent!)
repeatedly. We started sitting on the floor in the hallway and would
put him back to bed (again, silently). We would be up until 9
sometimes doing this (and bedtime was 7). He considered the whole
thing a game, despite no reaction or talking from either of us (we
would take turns). And we had the whole bedtime routine that included
pottying and reading and checking for monsters, last drink of water,
lots of snuggles and loves, etc.

Finally, we did what our ped suggested. Everything in his room came
out except his bed and dresser (which we placed in his closet and duct
taped it closed) so that there was nothing to play with whatsoever. No
toys, no books, no stuffed animals (he didn't sleep with them anyway).
He had 3 blankies/lovies he *had* to sleep with, and the pillow was
beloved because it was new. We explained what was going to happen if
he got out of bed. He didn't have to go to sleep right away, but he
had to stay on his bed. Each time he got out of bed, we would repeat
as before, but the second time, a lovie was taken away. The third
time, repeat and a lovie taken away. After losing his lovies, he lost
his pillow. If he got up again, after that, his door was locked (we
had moved the spare bathroom lock which we never used to the outside
of his bedroom door). Now, we sat right outside the door, so we could
hear what was going on in there, and there was nothing he could play
with or hurt himself with in there. Once he was asleep, the door was
unlocked, and we'd (usually) head straight to bed ourselves. It still
took a full 3 weeks before he started being able to not have his door
locked. Another 2 before he stopped losing his pillow. And so on. And
any time he was sick or had an owie or was learning a new skill, we'd
be back to square one and have to start over.

It was only when he hit 4 years that he stopped fighting us
completely. We might have to put him back to bed, but only once or
twice. Then when we moved 3 months before he turned 5, suddenly he was
crawling into bed with us again. We repeated what we had done before
with the modification that after once up, we just closed his door (no
lock, he just assumed that it was anymore), and it only took about a
week. Of course he was older, and we could reason a bit with him. (You
can have your door open if you stay in bed, or if you get up, we'll
have to close the door. Sticker charts for staying in bed. Privilege
of picking what breakfast is gonna be if he stayed the night before,
etc.)

Looking back, he was a child that if he had a mattress in our room, he
still would have climbed in bed with us. I know that works for some
people, and it may for your daughter. But if she's stubborn like
Alexander, I wish you good luck. The only thing you can do is plan out
your defense strategy well, and do not alter from it, not even once.
Oh, and know that they *know* when Mommy or Daddy doesn't feel up to
the task. Alternate either time or days when you each take "guard
duty" so that one person doesn't get overwhelmed. Remember you both
have to be on the same page to present a united front.

((hugs))
It does get better. Xander now does his routine almost completely by
himself, and rarely gets out of bed unless he needs to use the
bathroom (which he takes care of himself) or has a nightmare (in which
case he comes to me, gets a big hug and kiss, and heads back to bed
without me having to say anything).

Sharalyn
mom to Alexander James

As soon as I say this tonight will be different, but my DD *slept in her
room* last night, the first night we've enforced it. I am amazed. It wasn't
smoothe, but it could have been so much worse. I can't believe it!

We are moving her bedtime up, but not trying to force her to that yet. She
goes to sleep at 9-10 depending on how tired she is, we have set her bedtime
for 7:30p. We put her in her room at 8:30 and told her she is staying there
now, and made it sound really fun and talked it up as being a wonderful
event. Actually, I used the pediatrician and made it sound like a privelege,
LOL- I told her that now that the doctor has checked her out, he has
diagnosed her as being wonderfully smart and grown up and ready for the big
girl bed, instead of having to stay a little girl in mommy's room. Made it
sound like a milestone she had to merit- this may make some cringe, but it
worked.

I made it clear she was to stay in bed, nighlight on, until the sun comes
up. Assured her we've checked the room for monsters and bedbugs (she tried
the "I'm scared" tack.)..and told her she is not to leave the room, but can
get out of the bed if she needs to. Just don't leave the room. She did stay
awake for 2 hours, until 10:30p, I think she came out maybe 3 times and was
promptly put back. She was quiet for an hour until she realized this was
really it, and then she wailed for an hour. She came out 3 times, and I did
go in there twice and sit with her for a few minutes, once I stayed for 5
minutes, the second time I told her I had to go back to my bed in 5 minutes
but I counted the minutes faster, so I would say "Ok, I have 4 minutes left"
"Just 2 minutes left", and I was probably only in there for 3-4. She fell
asleep, and stayed in the bed the entire night. Amazing.

She did pull out all the words though "But I'm so scared to lay down all
alone", "I don't like this room, I like mommy's room", "I can't stay here
all night" etc. Her dad did have to go put her back in there once as well.
He told her not to get up until the sun comes up too. She tried to play him
this morning "Daddy, daddy, where did you go last night when you left me?"
LOL.

But she has gone around all day today bragging that she did good in her big
girl bed and will do better tonight. Sheesh, makes me feel foolish for
taking so long to move her, since she is not protesting anywhere as badly as
I though she could. go figure.

"beyond the pale" wrote in message
news
As soon as I say this tonight will be different, but my DD *slept in her
room* last night, the first night we've enforced it. I am amazed. It
wasn't smoothe, but it could have been so much worse. I can't believe it!

We are moving her bedtime up, but not trying to force her to that yet. She
goes to sleep at 9-10 depending on how tired she is, we have set her
bedtime for 7:30p. We put her in her room at 8:30 and told her she is
staying there now, and made it sound really fun and talked it up as being
a wonderful event. Actually, I used the pediatrician and made it sound
like a privelege, LOL- I told her that now that the doctor has checked her
out, he has diagnosed her as being wonderfully smart and grown up and
ready for the big girl bed, instead of having to stay a little girl in
mommy's room. Made it sound like a milestone she had to merit- this may
make some cringe, but it worked.

I made it clear she was to stay in bed, nighlight on, until the sun comes
up. Assured her we've checked the room for monsters and bedbugs (she tried
the "I'm scared" tack.)..and told her she is not to leave the room, but
can get out of the bed if she needs to. Just don't leave the room. She did
stay awake for 2 hours, until 10:30p, I think she came out maybe 3 times
and was promptly put back. She was quiet for an hour until she realized
this was really it, and then she wailed for an hour. She came out 3 times,
and I did go in there twice and sit with her for a few minutes, once I
stayed for 5 minutes, the second time I told her I had to go back to my
bed in 5 minutes but I counted the minutes faster, so I would say "Ok, I
have 4 minutes left" "Just 2 minutes left", and I was probably only in
there for 3-4. She fell asleep, and stayed in the bed the entire night.
Amazing.

She did pull out all the words though "But I'm so scared to lay down all
alone", "I don't like this room, I like mommy's room", "I can't stay here
all night" etc. Her dad did have to go put her back in there once as well.
He told her not to get up until the sun comes up too. She tried to play
him this morning "Daddy, daddy, where did you go last night when you left
me?" LOL.

But she has gone around all day today bragging that she did good in her
big girl bed and will do better tonight. Sheesh, makes me feel foolish for
taking so long to move her, since she is not protesting anywhere as badly
as I though she could. go figure.

Just keep it up, and it all may be over in a matter of days. At the same
time, don't be surprised if the "newness" of the idea wears off in a fw days
and she decides that she wants back in your room. Be consistent, and she'll
figure it out.

My youngest daughter is very strong willed, and I put off all sorts of
transitions and changes with her when she was a baby -- taking away the
pacifier, switching from bottles to sippy cups, sleeping through the night,
etc, and each one has been so much faster and easier than I would have
assumed. Not always a total breeze, but less tramatic (for me) than I
assumed it would be based on her personality.

Case in point -- her sister is totally easygoing and compliant, and pretty
much all of her transistion have been smooth and easy. Switching from bottle
to sippy cup? "Oh, we don't use bottles any more, sweetie. Those are for
babies. Big girls use sippy cups." Done. But potty training took almost a
year of stops and starts. I started at 2.25 and she was 100% completely
trained by 3.25. Addie, on the other hand started at 2.5 and was trained in
.... wait for it ... 2 weeks. Lordy. I guess that's the benefit of a strong
willed stubborn spirited child -- when they make up their mind on something,
they do it. : )
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys -- 01/03/03
Addison Grace -- 09/30/04

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beyond the pale wrote:

[...]
Any tips though, as DD is willful- VERY willful, and reasoning and
bargaining with her simply won't work, words do not work.
[...]

Heh - I've just been reading the excellent and HIGHLY recommended Faber
and Mazlish books, so, when I read your initial post, I got very excited
at the idea of being able to use their problem-solving techniques and
typed out a massive long account of how to do it. Then I read your
follow-up from last night, and realised you obviously don't need it any
more. Good to know you're sorted! ;-)

Still, I'm going to post what I've written anyway - no point in it going
to waste, and even though I know you don't need this particular example
now, I figure someone on here might find the technique to be something
they can use for some problem they have with their child in the future!


1. First of all, acknowledge her problems in a way that makes her feel
she has your sympathy. “It can really be difficult to be in a room on
your own, can’t it? It feels lonely and sometimes scary.” No buts - do
*not* be tempted to finish off that sentence with “…but Mommy needs you
to stay there," or anything of that sort. That’s for the next bit of
the conversation – at this point, you just want to make it clear to her
that you hear what’s going on with her, that you understand, that you
care about her side of this.

If she wants to talk about it further, listen and acknowledge whatever
she’s saying. At this stage, don’t judge, debate, contradict,
criticise, or reassure - she is entitled to the way she feels, and what
will help her most is simply to have it acknowledged. “There’s a
monster in my room!” “It’s scary to be on your own, isn’t it?
Sometimes it makes you worry about monsters.” Don’t go over the top
gushing with sympathy – just show her that you do fully understand and
appreciate that it *is* a genuine problem from her point of view.

2. When, and only when, you feel that she does know that you are fully
acknowledging and sympathising with her feelings on the matter, you
*then* state your side of the case: “The trouble is, I need to get some
sleep and I can’t sleep properly with you in my bed.” Don't apologise or
overexplain – just briefly give her the information.

It is actually possible that at this point she may start coming up with
compromise ideas for herself. (This can even happen after the first step
– sometimes all a child needs is to feel that you've really heard where
she's coming from to be willing to look at it from your viewpoint as
well and to start working solutions out for herself – but I suspect
it'll take a bit more here.) However, if not, then you need to broach
the subject of solutions yourself. “So, we've got a problem here. You
get lonely on your own, but I need to have space in my bed to sleep.
What we need to do is to figure out a solution to this problem that we
can both be happy with. So, let's both start coming up with some ideas.”

3. At this point, you get a piece of paper and tell her that you are
going to *write down* all the ideas she can come up with and all the
ideas that you can come up with. Apparently, writing the list down
works really well even for pre-literate children – children are
impressed by the idea of writing everything down, and it makes them feel
you really are taking their ideas seriously. Unless she really isn't
coming up with anything, it's a good idea to hold back on your ideas
until she's come up with one or two herself – it can squelch her
willingness to speak up if you rush straight in with your own ideas at
this point before she's seen that you really are willing to take her
ideas seriously as well.

An extremely important thing to be aware of here is that vetoing ideas
is the *next* step. Not this one. At this point, you are simply
writing down absolutely any and every idea that either of you can come
up with, with no judgement (that, again, just squelches willingness).
So, no matter how out of the question her ideas would be to implement
(“Maybe I can stay up all night and just go out and play in the garden
so that I wouldn't wake you!”) just bite your tongue and write them
down. (Of course, the good part about this is that *you* get to put in
all of *your* dream solutions, no matter how unwilling you know she'll
be to accept them – by all means throw in “DD goes straight to bed in
the evening and stays there all night”.)

By the way, you don't necessarily have to come up with anything yourself
at this point. If she's coming up with such great ideas that you can
see she's got the entire thing nailed herself, by all means let her get
on with it!

4. Once the two of you have both come up with everything you want to
write down and it's all on the list, *then* you move on to exercising
veto power. Both of you. Go through the list, and *both* of you have
the right to cross off any items you don't like. When you're crossing
her ideas off, avoid any criticism or insult of the ideas, and also
avoid getting over-apologetic. Just explain briefly why you don't feel
that idea would work or why you aren't happy with it, and cross it off.

5. Now, hopefully, by this stage you will have at least something left
on the sheet of paper that neither of you have vetoed, and voila! A
plan that both of you are OK with. (If you have more than one idea, it
may be appropriate either to choose between them or to incorporate them
all into a general plan – play it by ear once you see what you've got.)
If the two of you have crossed out everything, you could try saying
something like “Well, this is obviously going to be a tricky problem to
solve. But I have confidence that we'll be able to manage it between
us. Here's what we should do now – we put this aside until tomorrow,
and meanwhile we each try to think of more ideas that we can put down,
and this time tomorrow we'll start a new list for all the ideas we've
managed to think up in the meantime and see if we can find one then that
we both like.”

6. When you do get to the point where you have one or more solutions
that you are both OK with, run through them one more time with your
daughter to be sure you're both clear on what the plan is, and then get
another piece of paper and write or type them out again. This is your
action plan. Get her to choose some place where you can stick it up so
that you both have it there to refer to – that makes it quite clear that
you're determined to take this seriously and expect her to do the same.
You could even get her to decorate it a bit, if she wants to, so that
she really feels she's been participating at every step. If there are
specific things you need to do for this action plan to come about, set a
firm commitment for when you'll do them. (One of the mothers quoted in
the book used this technique to solve the same problem with her
daughter, and the daughter came up with the idea of buying a lamp,
crayons, and paper so that she could draw pictures when she woke up in
the night instead of coming in to crawl into her mother's bed. The
mother took her daughter shopping for those things the next day.)

And there you have it. One action plan, comprised of solutions the two
of you have both OK'd.

This has several advantages that I can see. Firstly, instead of your
daughter feeling that you're imposing your will on her and feeling
frustrated and furious, she'll feel that her opinions and viewpoint have
been taken seriously – and this is likely to make her feel a whole lot
more co-operative herself. Secondly, two heads are better than one –
you may find that if your daughter is included in the problem-solving
process, she'll surprise you with perfectly workable compromises that
you wouldn't even have thought of. (This happened for all the parents
quoted in the book who tried this technique with their children!)
Thirdly, your daughter gets some practice in negotiation and
problem-solving skills, which are very useful life skills to learn.

This plan brought to you by Faber and Mazlish's book 'How To Talk So
Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk.' And I liked 'Liberated
Parents, Liberated Children' even better. ;-)


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

"Sarah Vaughan" wrote in message
...
beyond the pale wrote:

[...]
Any tips though, as DD is willful- VERY willful, and reasoning and
bargaining with her simply won't work, words do not work.
[...]

Heh - I've just been reading the excellent and HIGHLY recommended Faber
and Mazlish books, so, when I read your initial post, I got very excited
at the idea of being able to use their problem-solving techniques and
typed out a massive long account of how to do it. Then I read your
follow-up from last night, and realised you obviously don't need it any
more. Good to know you're sorted! ;-)

Still, I'm going to post what I've written anyway - no point in it going
to waste, and even though I know you don't need this particular example
now, I figure someone on here might find the technique to be something
they can use for some problem they have with their child in the future!


1. First of all, acknowledge her problems in a way that makes her feel she
has your sympathy. “It can really be difficult to be in a room on your
own, can’t it? It feels lonely and sometimes scary.” No buts - do *not*
be tempted to finish off that sentence with “…but Mommy needs you to stay
there," or anything of that sort. That’s for the next bit of the
conversation – at this point, you just want to make it clear to her that
you hear what’s going on with her, that you understand, that you care
about her side of this.

If she wants to talk about it further, listen and acknowledge whatever she’s
saying. At this stage, don’t judge, debate, contradict, criticise, or
reassure - she is entitled to the way she feels, and what will help her
most is simply to have it acknowledged. “There’s a monster in my room!”
“It’s scary to be on your own, isn’t it? Sometimes it makes you worry
about monsters.” Don’t go over the top gushing with sympathy – just show
her that you do fully understand and appreciate that it *is* a genuine
problem from her point of view.

This wouldn't work well with #2. It would give her ideas. If I said "it is
lonely and sometimes scary" then that would be her first reaction to being
left-"mummy, I'm lonely and frightened"
The power of suggestion is very high for her, and she has a big imagination,
with which she can frighten herself. If you suggest something is
scary/lonely/monsters then she will get herself genuinely frightened even to
the point of hysteria on occasion.
Debbie


2. When, and only when, you feel that she does know that you are fully
acknowledging and sympathising with her feelings on the matter, you *then*
state your side of the case: “The trouble is, I need to get some sleep and
I can’t sleep properly with you in my bed.” Don't apologise or
overexplain – just briefly give her the information.

It is actually possible that at this point she may start coming up with
compromise ideas for herself. (This can even happen after the first step –
sometimes all a child needs is to feel that you've really heard where
she's coming from to be willing to look at it from your viewpoint as well
and to start working solutions out for herself – but I suspect it'll take
a bit more here.) However, if not, then you need to broach the subject of
solutions yourself. “So, we've got a problem here. You get lonely on your
own, but I need to have space in my bed to sleep. What we need to do is to
figure out a solution to this problem that we can both be happy with. So,
let's both start coming up with some ideas.”

3. At this point, you get a piece of paper and tell her that you are going
to *write down* all the ideas she can come up with and all the ideas that
you can come up with. Apparently, writing the list down works really well
even for pre-literate children – children are impressed by the idea of
writing everything down, and it makes them feel you really are taking
their ideas seriously. Unless she really isn't coming up with anything,
it's a good idea to hold back on your ideas until she's come up with one
or two herself – it can squelch her willingness to speak up if you rush
straight in with your own ideas at this point before she's seen that you
really are willing to take her ideas seriously as well.

An extremely important thing to be aware of here is that vetoing ideas is
the *next* step. Not this one. At this point, you are simply writing
down absolutely any and every idea that either of you can come up with,
with no judgement (that, again, just squelches willingness). So, no matter
how out of the question her ideas would be to implement (“Maybe I can stay
up all night and just go out and play in the garden so that I wouldn't
wake you!”) just bite your tongue and write them down. (Of course, the
good part about this is that *you* get to put in all of *your* dream
solutions, no matter how unwilling you know she'll be to accept them – by
all means throw in “DD goes straight to bed in the evening and stays there
all night”.)

By the way, you don't necessarily have to come up with anything yourself
at this point. If she's coming up with such great ideas that you can see
she's got the entire thing nailed herself, by all means let her get on
with it!

4. Once the two of you have both come up with everything you want to write
down and it's all on the list, *then* you move on to exercising veto
power. Both of you. Go through the list, and *both* of you have the
right to cross off any items you don't like. When you're crossing her
ideas off, avoid any criticism or insult of the ideas, and also avoid
getting over-apologetic. Just explain briefly why you don't feel that
idea would work or why you aren't happy with it, and cross it off.

5. Now, hopefully, by this stage you will have at least something left on
the sheet of paper that neither of you have vetoed, and voila! A plan
that both of you are OK with. (If you have more than one idea, it may be
appropriate either to choose between them or to incorporate them all into
a general plan – play it by ear once you see what you've got.) If the two
of you have crossed out everything, you could try saying something like
“Well, this is obviously going to be a tricky problem to solve. But I
have confidence that we'll be able to manage it between us. Here's what
we should do now – we put this aside until tomorrow, and meanwhile we each
try to think of more ideas that we can put down, and this time tomorrow
we'll start a new list for all the ideas we've managed to think up in the
meantime and see if we can find one then that we both like.”

6. When you do get to the point where you have one or more solutions that
you are both OK with, run through them one more time with your daughter to
be sure you're both clear on what the plan is, and then get another piece
of paper and write or type them out again. This is your action plan. Get
her to choose some place where you can stick it up so that you both have
it there to refer to – that makes it quite clear that you're determined to
take this seriously and expect her to do the same. You could even get her
to decorate it a bit, if she wants to, so that she really feels she's been
participating at every step. If there are specific things you need to do
for this action plan to come about, set a firm commitment for when you'll
do them. (One of the mothers quoted in the book used this technique to
solve the same problem with her daughter, and the daughter came up with
the idea of buying a lamp, crayons, and paper so that she could draw
pictures when she woke up in the night instead of coming in to crawl into
her mother's bed. The mother took her daughter shopping for those things
the next day.)

And there you have it. One action plan, comprised of solutions the two of
you have both OK'd.

This has several advantages that I can see. Firstly, instead of your
daughter feeling that you're imposing your will on her and feeling
frustrated and furious, she'll feel that her opinions and viewpoint have
been taken seriously – and this is likely to make her feel a whole lot
more co-operative herself. Secondly, two heads are better than one – you
may find that if your daughter is included in the problem-solving process,
she'll surprise you with perfectly workable compromises that you wouldn't
even have thought of. (This happened for all the parents quoted in the
book who tried this technique with their children!) Thirdly, your daughter
gets some practice in negotiation and problem-solving skills, which are
very useful life skills to learn.

This plan brought to you by Faber and Mazlish's book 'How To Talk So Kids
Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk.' And I liked 'Liberated
Parents, Liberated Children' even better. ;-)


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

Welches wrote:
"Sarah Vaughan" wrote in message

[...]
1. First of all, acknowledge her problems in a way that makes her feel she
has your sympathy. “It can really be difficult to be in a room on your
own, can’t it? It feels lonely and sometimes scary.” No buts - do *not*
be tempted to finish off that sentence with “…but Mommy needs you to stay
there," or anything of that sort. That’s for the next bit of the
conversation – at this point, you just want to make it clear to her that
you hear what’s going on with her, that you understand, that you care
about her side of this.

If she wants to talk about it further, listen and acknowledge whatever she’s
saying. At this stage, don’t judge, debate, contradict, criticise, or
reassure - she is entitled to the way she feels, and what will help her
most is simply to have it acknowledged. “There’s a monster in my room!”
“It’s scary to be on your own, isn’t it? Sometimes it makes you worry
about monsters.” Don’t go over the top gushing with sympathy – just show
her that you do fully understand and appreciate that it *is* a genuine
problem from her point of view.

This wouldn't work well with #2. It would give her ideas. If I said "it is
lonely and sometimes scary" then that would be her first reaction to being
left-"mummy, I'm lonely and frightened"
The power of suggestion is very high for her, and she has a big imagination,
with which she can frighten herself. If you suggest something is
scary/lonely/monsters then she will get herself genuinely frightened even to
the point of hysteria on occasion.

Oh, that wasn't meant to be some sort of standard speech which you reel
off unthinkingly to any child who won't stay in his/her room, whatever
the circumstances! The whole point of this particular technique is that
you try to figure out what your child is actually feeling and then
articulate/acknowledge that. So if you think your child is trying to
get out of the bedroom for some reason other than being scared, then
obviously that reason is what you put into words for her. All of this
was directed at what the OP was saying about her child.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

"Sarah Vaughan" wrote
Still, I'm going to post what I've written anyway - no point in it going
to waste, and even though I know you don't need this particular example
now, I figure someone on here might find the technique to be something
they can use for some problem they have with their child in the future!


Oh, I'm SO saving the post- thanks!! I might need it with DD yet, or it
might help with #2, plus people are always asking me for tips on their own
kids (I do this too, when I am around other moms).

As an update, DD has gone to bed 4 times and done really well in her own bed
from 8pm to 7am, the first night was later...we had a minor setback last
night when she went down at 8p, went right to sleep with no fuss after her
bath and bedtime story....then I woke up at 3:15am to heat her wailing "I
can't take iiiiiiiiiiit, need my mommaaaaaa". I went into her room, she was
still in her bed, sitting up, with tears pouring down her face and her hair
was matted from sweat. She said "Please, I can't sleep in here all by
myself, I had bad dreams and my throat hurts, don't want to be alone!" It
was so pitiful and she obviously was not faking it- she had been asleep fine
with no protest and I had even gone in and covered her up, she stirred and
smiled at me, and went back to sleep. So, I got my pillow and crawled into
her bed with her from 3:30a to 7. She did seem like she had a fever coming
on and her nose is runny today but she went right back to sleep with me and
so did I. Luckily, she was one of those kids that didn't want her crib's
toddler daybed function OR a regular toddler bed, so we bought a bunk bed
for her "big girl" bed (we have removed the ladder until she's older and
safe to climb so she can't access the top- we arrange stuffed animals and
display them up there)..and the bottom bunk is a full size bed.

I still got a good night's sleep and we have talked about tonight and she
says she will sleep in her bed alone again. We'll see. But she has been so
much easier than I thought, she doesn't try to leave her room. I would have
told you- I think I DID tell you- she'd be the type to come out 88 times.
She hasn't.