Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"

The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
betters ways to discipline.

"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
inquiries about what's happening."

wrote:

"billy f" wrote:
The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child
has to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school,
but receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or
want to go to school. However if a parent has used a more military style
of discipline at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose
parents are softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a
little humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can
find betters ways to discipline.

I agree with you. In our case when CPS took our child away their major
gripe was that we wouldn't disipline him. (we had employed attachment
parenting long before birth, of course attachment parenting includes
disipline through loving guidence and affording the child their
dignity.) So in our supervised visits it basically consisted of having
to put our two year old in "time-outs" for little things like making
moter boat noises (they said he was spitting) or wanting to open up his
own presents (they said he was throwing a fit when they took his present
away.) Or having the visits completly terminated because I would ask a
caseworker to quit snapping her chewing gum, etc. The worse part was
having him brought to visits with cuts and bruises and bitemarks,
handprints (documented) I don't even think a "last resort" is
appropraite. I believe the problem should be addressed before it begins.
Better communications. (i.e. The caregivers would complain that when
they chastised (humiliated) him by calling him naughty, he would act up
more. His favorite show? Enid Blyton's The Noddy Shop.) I really agree
with you a 'better way' can be found. It's a "continuum concept."


"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around
for a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good
discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade
athlete who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears
despite a safety rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or
show disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider
them humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and
counselor who serves as executive director of human resources for
Garland public schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a
student, makes them feel unworthy or singles them out for negative
attention, something that makes a kid feel like, 'There's something
wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe
most teachers like children and are well-trained in effective
discipline techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' "
said Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but
still allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training
while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry.
But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that
she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the
afternoon workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl
how she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this
is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at
California State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing
students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment
instead of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The
focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments
in class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea
culpa on a sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock
said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced
a tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent
population that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y.,
said effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen
with a tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has
he been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call
his parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with
the legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot
of families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances
respect for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other
prominent groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New
Jersey, said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are
times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,
"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's
OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids'
schools keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or
humiliating them? How can they tell if the school environment is
benevolent toward kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power
over students to no productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years
all excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of
a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make
further inquiries about what's happening."


Bull****. The problem I see in raising kids these days is that people dont
want to be parents, they want to be friends to their brats and as a result
you get a generation of self endulgent wimps who care for noone but
themselves.

Discipline is nessicary and all that horrible trauma you fear so much for
the kiddies is a little thing we call growing up. Sheltering them from such
things is ultimately destructive and by pushing this agenda you and your
ilk should be ashamed of yourselves.
--
I would have gotten away with if it werent for those meddling kids!

Children learn when they are taught through kindness and example, combined with
clear expectations. Imagine the stupidity of anyone thinking that humiliation
teaches children anything other than hurt, anger, and how to treat others who
have less power.

LaVonne

Poopie Diapers wrote:

No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.

Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.

In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons," she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
inquiries about what's happening."

This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.

Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children are
not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of how
they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is that
what we want our children to learn?

LaVonne

billy f wrote:

The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
betters ways to discipline.

"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
inquiries about what's happening."

Once again your forming a generalization that all children raised with tough
discipline "already have problems". I really don't think you know how the
human mind works. If a child is raised with this kind of discipline from day
one he will except it as the norm and will not question it. Most children
never have a problem with the way their parents raise them until outside
forces feed their minds with crap like "your parents did that to you, that's
child abuse" Its only then that they start resenting their parents for
raising them the way they have. Children raised with military type
discipline that is not to harsh or demeaning are usually from my experience
very strong, competitive, athletic masculine individuals. They are usually
leaders more than followers and they don't go around whining about
everything like children raised in more permissive households do. Of course
if the parents are mean and sadistic like the military can sometimes be the
child could grow up with emotional problems.

The last part of your statement is a very politically correct one. Children
sometimes are humiliated by teachers because the student is humiliating
others including the teacher. Sometimes letting someone see how it feels is
the best solution to a problem. People like you think that your doing right
by sheltering children from reality. The truth is in the real world you
disrespect someone they are going to do the same to you.

"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message
...
This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is
raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.

Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children
are
not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of
how
they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is
that
what we want our children to learn?

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:51:08 GMT, "billy f"
wrote:

Once again your forming a generalization that all children
raised with tough discipline "already have problems". I really
don't think you know how the human mind works. If a child is
raised with this kind of discipline from day one he will except
it as the norm and will not question it.

Yes, abused children love their parents and believe they deserve
to be treated this way.

Read some of the stories, talk to children who have been badly
abused and you will see this. This is why later, abused children
often seek out abusive life partners. It's why they abuse themselves
by cutting and by drug abuse as well. It's why many have PTSD
and DID and cannot cope with life. When you have not been
shown love and kindness by your parents, you learn what you live.
In other cases, abused children become like their abusers. They
abuse others, though often they do so a bit differently than the
way in which their parents abused them.

Most children never have a problem with the way their parents
raise them until outside forces feed their minds with crap like
"your parents did that to you, that's child abuse" Its only then that
they start resenting their parents for raising them the way they have.

Often, it is when they come into contact with families where parents
are not abusive that they begin to question what was done to them.
Then they wonder why no one saw what was happening to them.
Interestingly, it is the emotional damage that is most difficult to
cope with, not the physical damage. Why do you think that battered
spouses, both men and women, often stay in those relationships
rather than leave?

Children raised with military type discipline that is not to harsh or
demeaning are usually from my experience very strong, competitive,
athletic masculine individuals.

So only boys should be raised this way? What about the daughters
in such families?

They are usually leaders more than followers and they don't go
around whining about everything like children raised in more
permissive households do.

Children in more permissive households don't whine about
everything either, if the parents know how to handle whining.

The problem is that you are seeing two extremes and not households
where children are treated as people, listened to, but also know that
there parents are people as well. Children parented positively grow
up with empathy for those around them. They learn to be leaders who
don't control through fear, but through example.

if the parents are mean and sadistic like the military can sometimes
be the child could grow up with emotional problems.

Children who are brought up with harsh punishments learn to:

be passive obeying *all* authority without questioning it.
be rebels without a cause
be ready to do anything they want as long as they believe
they will not be caught


The last part of your statement is a very politically correct one.

Doesn't matter if it is politically correct or not. It is the truth.
Children learn what they live. You teach much more by your
example than by your pious words.

Children sometimes are humiliated by teachers because the
student is humiliating others including the teacher.

If a teacher can be humiliated by his or her students, then
s/he should not be teaching. S/he should know what the
behaviors are about and know how to cope with them without
taking such things personally.

Sometimes letting someone see how it feels is the best
solution to a problem.

By that reasoning, you should teach a child not to run out into
the street by letting him get hit by a car. You can show someone
how something feels to others without doing it to him. I don't
believe in biting a child back when he bites either - what that
teaches is that biting another person is ok. If you treat a child
with kindness, he learns how that feels and he learns to be
kind to others.

People like you think that your doing right by sheltering
children from reality. The truth is in the real world you
disrespect someone they are going to do the same to you.

But disrespect has many meanings. Children who are treated
with respect, who are listened to learn how to treat others
properly. If you treat them with disrespect deliberately they
learn to continue this. Since you are *in charge,* they are unable
to do this to you, perhaps, so instead, they do it to others who
happen to be weaker than they are and the cycle continues.

Once again, positive parenting does NOT mean that you are
not teaching children discipline. The word discipline is not
a synonym for punishment. Punishment and rewards are
behaviorist psychological theory and while they have been
around since human society began, they teach unintended
lessons and we see these all around us in society today






--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

The correct name of the book is "A Child Called It". Its a very good book,
the first of three a book series. The abuse that Dave endured is far worst
that any person could ever imagine. Dave was starved for up to ten days and
when he was fed he was fed table scraps from the rest of the families food.
To survive David stole food at school and when his mother found out she mad
him vomit it into the toilet, pick it out and made him eat it later that
night. After that incident his mother would make him stick his finger down
his throat everyday after school to make sure he was not eating a school.
She made him do all of the house work and made him wear the same clothes to
school everyday. He received regular beatings and was verbally abused, she
didn't even call him by his name, just "the boy" or "it" Some of the other
things she did is made him drink ammonia, soap and bleach and made him stand
in the bathroom with a mixture of bleach and ammonia. She did quite a few
other think that I will not get into. His father who became a alcoholic like
Dave's mother did very little to stop the abuse. Lucky school officials got
involved and got him taken away from his mother and placed in foster care
until he was 18. The other two books is about his life after the rescue.
Dave hated his mother for years, but found that hate would only destroy him.
Today he is a active contributor in the fight against child abuse. I have a
lot respect for that man to able to turn out so well despite with rough
childhood.

I think everyone should read these book especially the first. You will read
first hand what real child about is, not loving parents that sometimes
spank.

"tötö©" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:51:47 -0400, Newman Hunt
wrote:

What you perceive to be "abuse" may very well be perceived by someone
else as not "coddling spoiled brats". Furthermore, children will
often love and even hate their parents regardless if abuse is present.

Read A Boy Called It by Dave Pelzer




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:06:23 GMT, "billy f"
wrote:

I think everyone should read these book especially the first. You will read
first hand what real child about is, not loving parents that sometimes
spank.

Abuse is on a continuum. Pelzer's books show much the worst and he
was not *seen* and rescued until he was quite old. The fact here is
that while spanking is not on the scale of this kind of abuse, it is
still abusive. And while spanking *alone* doesn't do this kind of
damage, it is the verbal and emotional abuse, the humiliation part
that damages children's pyshes and is not recognized.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:17 -0400, Newman Hunt
wrote:

Children who are humiliated especially by their parents don't learn to
cope, they learn that they are helpless to cope with such abuses and
they internalize the fact that they *deserve* to be abused.

The parents who abuse their children often find it very difficult to
cope with life. Most parents who abuse their children do not wake up
thinking, "Gee, I feel great today. I feel like abusing little
Johnny."

I agree.

And many parents who abuse their children are following the same
pattern their own parents followed. It is very difficult to break the
cycle, but it can be done.

No. It is very easy. All you have to do is ban spanking! ;-)

I am not one of those who believes that the government must solve
this in *most* situations. I believe that most parents actually want
to parent well, but stress makes this difficult too. We need as a
society to begin to help parents who are under stress to learn how
to take care of themselves and their children. Believe it or not
positive parenting can make their lives more bearable as well as
making the kids lives better.

Yup! Especially when both parents are working and the kids are in
daycare from 7AM to 6PM!!! Or children are left alone to care for
themselves from 3PM, when school is out, 'till whenever the single
mother got home from work! Do you still have time for positive
parenting? :-)

Doan

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:14:12 -0400, Newman Hunt
wrote:

If so, then what good are all the various theories and statistics
people love to use while discussing abused children?

I realize that I have not been on apspanking for quite some time
so you probably don't know my view on the studies and statistics.

I have a background in mathematics. Most social science studies
do not meet my criteria for valid studies given their often poor
use of statistical data and analysis. The data is often poor because
the variables simply cannot be all controlled for. The analyses
according to mathematicians I know who have sat on peer review
panels is often faulty and the few mathematicians on the panel are
often ignored when the studies go to publication in social science
journals.

The studies are pointers, but while the correlations are there, I
don't take them as *proof*.

And you shouldn't because correlations are not causations! Putting that
aside, what studies should do is to compare spanking and the non-cp
alternatives under the same condition. This is what Baumrind & Owens
(2002) attempted, along with accounting for other third confounding
factors, they found no significant correlations between spanking and
negative outcomes. In Straus & Mouradian (1998), the correlation
between non-cp alternatives and anti-sociable behavior was even STRONGER
than with spanking!

I go more by what I observe with the
many children I see in real life and the teenagers I talk to and
listen to.

As do many other people. That is why, not too many buy into to
anti-spanking agenda. Those that do buy into it seem to be suffering
from a case of "cargo cult" mentality. ;-) The latest line, as seen
by recent posts from Chris Dugan and LaVonne (who refused to debate
me even while claiming to only read research studies), is that even
pediatricians are not "experts" in child development!!! You should
trust the anti-spanking "expert"! :-)

"Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I
think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by
this pseudoscience. A teacher who has some good idea of how to
teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it
some other way--or is even fooled by the school system into
thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one. Or a parent
of bad boys, after disciplining them in one way or another, feels
guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right
thing," according to the experts.

So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and
science that isn't science.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are
examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the
South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw
airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same
thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like
runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a
wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head
like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's
the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're
doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the
way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So
I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the
apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but
they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land."

(from Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feyman.
Adapted from the CalTech commencement address given in 1974)

Doan