Jasper Mountain hit with suit over injuries

Jasper Mountain hit with suit over injuries

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...08&sid=1&fid=1

By Diane Dietz The Register-Guard

Published: December 22, 2007 09:09AM

One year after a rash of broken bones brought intense scrutiny to the
Jasper Mountain treatment home for abused children, the controversy has
not gone away.

Guardians of three children — one suffered a broken arm, one a broken
wrist and one a broken ankle — are now suing the home and seeking
$200,000 for each child for suffering, plus medical expenses.

Jasper Mountain Executive Director Dave Ziegler, meanwhile, continues to
spar with child welfare officials.

He accuses the government of overstepping its authority and being unfair
to Jasper Mountain. And he’s got the ears — if not the sympathies — of
some local lawmakers.

State officials say they’re just doing their job.

“Our interest remains that (Jasper Mountain) work with the children in a
way that’s safe for children, and that children are not being injured by
program staff. That is always our first and foremost concern,� said
Madeline Olson, assistant administrator of the state Addictions and
Mental Health Division.

The public trouble began at Jasper Mountain — a well-known, 25-year-old
organization that treats 20 severely abused and disturbed children in
its residential program in a rural setting off Jasper-Lowell Road south
of Springfield — with injuries that occurred in the context of staff
members trying to calm children when they had emotional outbursts,
according to state records.

In December 2005, an 11-year-old child suffered a broken ankle when he
was threatening younger children, according to the agency.

A staff member asked the child to move away. The child took one step
onto a nearby stair, dropped his weight and broke his ankle, according
to the agency.

In March 2006, a 12-year-old girl’s upper arm was broken in two places
after a staff member placed the arm behind the child’s back and held it
there to control where she was going during a meltdown. The break
required surgery.

In August 2006, a 12-year-old boy suffered a broken wrist after staff
members delivered the news that his mother had died, according to Jasper
Mountain officials. The boy ran out the door of the residence, turned
and braced the door closed with his arms. When staff chased after him
and pushed on the door, the force snapped the boy’s wrist.

All three children eventually left Jasper Mountain, said their attorney,
David Paul of Portland. Paul is now suing Jasper Mountain in Lane County
Circuit Court.

“I’m not going to necessarily prove they were abused, but I’m going to
prove they weren’t given appropriate care. And that’s the standard here,
especially when you’re taking care of children,� Paul said.

But Ziegler said it’s really the promise of money that’s driving the
lawsuit. Paul “stepped forward and talked the families of the kids into
getting some money out of this,� he said.

The three incidents within a nine-month period sparked a wave of
investigations by five state and federal agencies, including one by the
state Child Protective Services and one on behalf of the federal Centers
for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Investigators criticized Jasper Mountain about its use of containment
holds, saying they should be used in emergencies only, and that a second
staff member should be on hand during holds to monitor the child’s
well-being.

Investigators discovered that Jasper Mountain was relying on an improper
restraining hold, which involved putting a child’s arm behind the
child’s back and compelling the child to walk.

Child protective services eventually ruled that each allegation of child
abuse stemming from the broken bones were “unfounded� and that using the
improper hold was not — by itself — the basis for a finding of abuse,
according to state documents.

This year, however, another wing of the Human Services Department called
Addictions and Mental Health, which is in charge of certifying the
therapy at institutions, is continuing to scrutinize Jasper Mountain.

A pair of consultants — including University of Oregon associate
professor Dan Close — is studying the program and is expected to produce
a report in January.

“It’s to get us all comfortable with how they go about using any kind of
physical restraint,� said Bob Nikkel, administrator of the mental health
unit.

“There’s a place, I guess, for some kind of physical restraint. If
there’s imminent danger, people need to do something. (But) there’s so
much work that can be done with kids in programs to help them stave off
getting to that point. That’s where we’re trying to get.�

The use of restraining holds is a controversial issue nationwide.
Government agencies are moving toward a position that restraining holds
should be reserved for rare circumstances.

But Ziegler is a nationally known proponent of using restraining holds
for therapeutic purposes.

“What (the state) would love to see is for us to negotiate and wheel and
deal with kids and never have another restraint ever,� Ziegler said.

“That’s a naive stance. There are therapeutic benefits to drawing a line
for kids and not letting violent kids get violent to themselves and get
violent to others and, at times, that requires physical direction.�

In the past year, in the wake of the Jasper Mountain injuries, the
state’s child protection agency revamped the way it responds to
allegations of child abuse when the child is a resident of a treatment
program.

In early December, the child welfare agency began reassigning such cases
from workers who monitor children in private homes to investigators who
normally scrutinize allegations of abuse at big institutions such as
adult psychiatric hospitals.

The switch took effect on Dec. 3. Three days later, the unit opened a
sex-abuse investigation at Jasper Mountain, Ziegler said.

In his view, he said, that’s a sign that state officials are out to get
the agency.

“A 4-year-old has disclosed that another 4-year-old did something to him
in June of last year,� Ziegler said. “I also think he said he was called
‘stupid’ by one of the staff.�

Eva Kutas, head of the state investigative unit, said she is legally
barred from commenting about the situation.

In the courts, meanwhile, the civil case was filed in July in Multnomah
County but was transferred in November to Lane County at the request of
Jasper Mountain’s lawyer.

No trial date has been set. Both sides say it’s likely that they’ll
settle out of court.

The state’s earlier determination that the Jasper Mountain injuries were
not the result of child abuse will not hurt the civil case, attorney
Paul said.

While Ziegler takes on state bureaucrats, the staff at Jasper Mountain
is making improvements, said Bob Joondeph, executive director of the
Oregon Advocacy Center, which is congressionally mandated to monitor the
welfare of mentally ill people in institutions, including Jasper Mountain,

“They’re making the changes. Their staff are retraining,� Joondeph said.
“It’s as if the clinical and line staff are cooperating and working
positively, and (Ziegler) has just got some axes to grind of his own.�

For a second time, Ziegler is calling on state lawmakers for help.
Several lawmakers, including Sen. Floyd Prozanski, D-Eugene, met with
Ziegler and top child-welfare officials in Salem last February.
Prozanski said there may soon be a second round of meetings with top
officials.

Prozanski said he doesn’t know whether Jasper Mountain is being singled
out by regulators or whether there’s a legitimate reason for the state’s
concern. Prozanski said he’s seen no evidence that the children have
been mistreated at Jasper Mountain.

“My perspective is that they are the certified smart people on both
sides. They should be able to sit down at a table. They should be able
to work out whatever the action plans are (and) address the issues of
concern,� he said.








CURRENTLY CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES VIOLATES MORE CIVIL RIGHTS ON A
DAILY BASIS THEN ALL OTHER AGENCIES COMBINED INCLUDING THE NATIONAL
SECURITY AGENCY/CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY WIRETAPPING PROGRAMS....

CPS Does not protect children...
It is sickening how many children are subject to abuse, neglect and even
killed at the hands of Child Protective Services.

every parent should read this .pdf from
connecticut dcf watch...

http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com/8x11.pdf

http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com

Number of Cases per 100,000 children in the US
These numbers come from The National Center on
Child Abuse and Neglect in Washington. (NCCAN)
Recent numbers have increased significantly for CPS

*Perpetrators of Maltreatment*

Physical Abuse CPS 160, Parents 59
Sexual Abuse CPS 112, Parents 13
Neglect CPS 410, Parents 241
Medical Neglect CPS 14 Parents 12
Fatalities CPS 6.4, Parents 1.5

Imagine that, 6.4 children die at the hands of the very agencies that
are supposed to protect them and only 1.5 at the hands of parents per
100,000 children. CPS perpetrates more abuse, neglect, and sexual abuse
and kills more children then parents in the United States. If the
citizens of this country hold CPS to the same standards that they hold
parents too. No judge should ever put another child in the hands of ANY
government agency because CPS nationwide is guilty of more harm and
death than any human being combined. CPS nationwide is guilty of more
human rights violations and deaths of children then the homes from which
they were removed. When are the judges going to wake up and see that
they are sending children to their death and a life of abuse when
children are removed from safe homes based on the mere opinion of a
bunch of social workers.


CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, HAPPILY DESTROYING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT
FAMILIES YEARLY NATIONWIDE AND COMING TO YOU'RE HOME SOON...


BE SURE TO FIND OUT WHERE YOUR CANDIDATES STANDS ON THE ISSUE OF
REFORMING OR ABOLISHING CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES ("MAKE YOUR CANDIDATES
TAKE A STAND ON THIS ISSUE.") THEN REMEMBER TO VOTE ACCORDINGLY IF THEY
ARE "FAMILY UNFRIENDLY" IN THE NEXT ELECTION...

"ASSmonkey" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 5:15 am, Greegor wrote:
Why aren't these ""expert parents"" facing criminal charges?
At the least they should get criminal "Failure to Protect" charges.
The "innocent staff" story doesn't work either.

On Dec 22, 9:58 pm, fx wrote:

Jasper Mountain hit with suit over injuries

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...rt.viewStory.c...

By Diane Dietz The Register-Guard

Published: December 22, 2007 09:09AM

One year after a rash of broken bones brought intense scrutiny to the
Jasper Mountain treatment home for abused children, the controversy has
not gone away.

Guardians of three children -- one suffered a broken arm, one a broken
wrist and one a broken ankle -- are now suing the home and seeking
$200,000 for each child for suffering, plus medical expenses.

Jasper Mountain Executive Director Dave Ziegler, meanwhile, continues to
spar with child welfare officials.

He accuses the government of overstepping its authority and being unfair
to Jasper Mountain. And he's got the ears -- if not the sympathies -- of
some local lawmakers.

State officials say they're just doing their job.

"Our interest remains that (Jasper Mountain) work with the children in a
way that's safe for children, and that children are not being injured by
program staff. That is always our first and foremost concern," said
Madeline Olson, assistant administrator of the state Addictions and
Mental Health Division.

The public trouble began at Jasper Mountain -- a well-known, 25-year-old
organization that treats 20 severely abused and disturbed children in
its residential program in a rural setting off Jasper-Lowell Road south
of Springfield -- with injuries that occurred in the context of staff
members trying to calm children when they had emotional outbursts,
according to state records.

In December 2005, an 11-year-old child suffered a broken ankle when he
was threatening younger children, according to the agency.

A staff member asked the child to move away. The child took one step
onto a nearby stair, dropped his weight and broke his ankle, according
to the agency.

In March 2006, a 12-year-old girl's upper arm was broken in two places
after a staff member placed the arm behind the child's back and held it
there to control where she was going during a meltdown. The break
required surgery.

In August 2006, a 12-year-old boy suffered a broken wrist after staff
members delivered the news that his mother had died, according to Jasper
Mountain officials. The boy ran out the door of the residence, turned
and braced the door closed with his arms. When staff chased after him
and pushed on the door, the force snapped the boy's wrist.

All three children eventually left Jasper Mountain, said their attorney,
David Paul of Portland. Paul is now suing Jasper Mountain in Lane County
Circuit Court.

"I'm not going to necessarily prove they were abused, but I'm going to
prove they weren't given appropriate care. And that's the standard here,
especially when you're taking care of children," Paul said.

But Ziegler said it's really the promise of money that's driving the
lawsuit. Paul "stepped forward and talked the families of the kids into
getting some money out of this," he said.

The three incidents within a nine-month period sparked a wave of
investigations by five state and federal agencies, including one by the
state Child Protective Services and one on behalf of the federal Centers
for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Investigators criticized Jasper Mountain about its use of containment
holds, saying they should be used in emergencies only, and that a second
staff member should be on hand during holds to monitor the child's
well-being.

Investigators discovered that Jasper Mountain was relying on an improper
restraining hold, which involved putting a child's arm behind the
child's back and compelling the child to walk.

Child protective services eventually ruled that each allegation of child
abuse stemming from the broken bones were "unfounded" and that using the
improper hold was not -- by itself -- the basis for a finding of abuse,
according to state documents.

This year, however, another wing of the Human Services Department called
Addictions and Mental Health, which is in charge of certifying the
therapy at institutions, is continuing to scrutinize Jasper Mountain.

A pair of consultants -- including University of Oregon associate
professor Dan Close -- is studying the program and is expected to
produce
a report in January.

"It's to get us all comfortable with how they go about using any kind of
physical restraint," said Bob Nikkel, administrator of the mental health
unit.

"There's a place, I guess, for some kind of physical restraint. If
there's imminent danger, people need to do something. (But) there's so
much work that can be done with kids in programs to help them stave off
getting to that point. That's where we're trying to get."

The use of restraining holds is a controversial issue nationwide.
Government agencies are moving toward a position that restraining holds
should be reserved for rare circumstances.

But Ziegler is a nationally known proponent of using restraining holds
for therapeutic purposes.

"What (the state) would love to see is for us to negotiate and wheel and
deal with kids and never have another restraint ever," Ziegler said.

"That's a naive stance. There are therapeutic benefits to drawing a line
for kids and not letting violent kids get violent to themselves and get
violent to others and, at times, that requires physical direction."

In the past year, in the wake of the Jasper Mountain injuries, the
state's child protection agency revamped the way it responds to
allegations of child abuse when the child is a resident of a treatment
program.

In early December, the child welfare agency began reassigning such cases
from workers who monitor children in private homes to investigators who
normally scrutinize allegations of abuse at big institutions such as
adult psychiatric hospitals.

The switch took effect on Dec. 3. Three days later, the unit opened a
sex-abuse investigation at Jasper Mountain, Ziegler said.

In his view, he said, that's a sign that state officials are out to get
the agency.

"A 4-year-old has disclosed that another 4-year-old did something to him
in June of last year," Ziegler said. "I also think he said he was called
'stupid' by one of the staff."

Eva Kutas, head of the state investigative unit, said she is legally
barred from commenting about the situation.

In the courts, meanwhile, the civil case was filed in July in Multnomah
County but was transferred in November to Lane County at the request of
Jasper Mountain's lawyer.

No trial date has been set. Both sides say it's likely that they'll
settle out of court.

The state's earlier determination that the Jasper Mountain injuries were
not the result of child abuse will not hurt the civil case, attorney
Paul said.

While Ziegler takes on state bureaucrats, the staff at Jasper Mountain
is making improvements, said Bob Joondeph, executive director of the
Oregon Advocacy Center, which is congressionally mandated to monitor the
welfare of mentally ill people in institutions, including Jasper
Mountain,

"They're making the changes. Their staff are retraining," Joondeph said.
"It's as if the clinical and line staff are cooperating and working
positively, and (Ziegler) has just got some axes to grind of his own."

For a second time, Ziegler is calling on state lawmakers for help.
Several lawmakers, including Sen. Floyd Prozanski, D-Eugene, met with
Ziegler and top child-welfare officials in Salem last February.
Prozanski said there may soon be a second round of meetings with top
officials.

Prozanski said he doesn't know whether Jasper Mountain is being singled
out by regulators or whether there's a legitimate reason for the state's
concern. Prozanski said he's seen no evidence that the children have
been mistreated at Jasper Mountain.

"My perspective is that they are the certified smart people on both
sides. They should be able to sit down at a table. They should be able
to work out whatever the action plans are (and) address the issues of
concern," he said.

CURRENTLY CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES VIOLATES MORE CIVIL RIGHTS ON A
DAILY BASIS THEN ALL OTHER AGENCIES COMBINED INCLUDING THE NATIONAL
SECURITY AGENCY/CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY WIRETAPPING PROGRAMS....

CPS Does not protect children...
It is sickening how many children are subject to abuse, neglect and even
killed at the hands of Child Protective Services.

every parent should read this .pdf from
connecticut dcf watch...

http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com/8x11.pdf

http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com

Number of Cases per 100,000 children in the US
These numbers come from The National Center on
Child Abuse and Neglect in Washington. (NCCAN)
Recent numbers have increased significantly for CPS

*Perpetrators of Maltreatment*

Physical Abuse CPS 160, Parents 59
Sexual Abuse CPS 112, Parents 13
Neglect CPS 410, Parents 241
Medical Neglect CPS 14 Parents 12
Fatalities CPS 6.4, Parents 1.5

Imagine that, 6.4 children die at the hands of the very agencies that
are supposed to protect them and only 1.5 at the hands of parents per
100,000 children. CPS perpetrates more abuse, neglect, and sexual abuse
and kills more children then parents in the United States. If the
citizens of this country hold CPS to the same standards that they hold
parents too. No judge should ever put another child in the hands of ANY
government agency because CPS nationwide is guilty of more harm and
death than any human being combined. CPS nationwide

Are you suggesting that parents in the same situations should be criminally
charged?
If not, please explain your particular vitriol against these staff.

Assmonkey you are a PERFECT example of demonic possession by CPS of
people it has been able to turn into a succubus for their evil schemes on
our society. They are your PIMPS! The numbers say what the numbers say.
Your FEEBLE attempt at OBFUSCATION is merely a joke Assmonkey.

tlwaggoner wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:07 am, " krp" wrote:
"ASSmonkey" wrote in message

...
On Dec 23, 5:15 am, Greegor wrote:



Why aren't these ""expert parents"" facing criminal charges?
At the least they should get criminal "Failure to Protect" charges.
The "innocent staff" story doesn't work either.
On Dec 22, 9:58 pm, fx wrote:
Jasper Mountain hit with suit over injuries
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...rt.viewStory.c....
By Diane Dietz The Register-Guard
Published: December 22, 2007 09:09AM
One year after a rash of broken bones brought intense scrutiny to the
Jasper Mountain treatment home for abused children, the controversy has
not gone away.
Guardians of three children -- one suffered a broken arm, one a broken
wrist and one a broken ankle -- are now suing the home and seeking
$200,000 for each child for suffering, plus medical expenses.
Jasper Mountain Executive Director Dave Ziegler, meanwhile, continues to
spar with child welfare officials.
He accuses the government of overstepping its authority and being unfair
to Jasper Mountain. And he's got the ears -- if not the sympathies -- of
some local lawmakers.
State officials say they're just doing their job.
"Our interest remains that (Jasper Mountain) work with the children in a
way that's safe for children, and that children are not being injured by
program staff. That is always our first and foremost concern," said
Madeline Olson, assistant administrator of the state Addictions and
Mental Health Division.
The public trouble began at Jasper Mountain -- a well-known, 25-year-old
organization that treats 20 severely abused and disturbed children in
its residential program in a rural setting off Jasper-Lowell Road south
of Springfield -- with injuries that occurred in the context of staff
members trying to calm children when they had emotional outbursts,
according to state records.
In December 2005, an 11-year-old child suffered a broken ankle when he
was threatening younger children, according to the agency.
A staff member asked the child to move away. The child took one step
onto a nearby stair, dropped his weight and broke his ankle, according
to the agency.
In March 2006, a 12-year-old girl's upper arm was broken in two places
after a staff member placed the arm behind the child's back and held it
there to control where she was going during a meltdown. The break
required surgery.
In August 2006, a 12-year-old boy suffered a broken wrist after staff
members delivered the news that his mother had died, according to Jasper
Mountain officials. The boy ran out the door of the residence, turned
and braced the door closed with his arms. When staff chased after him
and pushed on the door, the force snapped the boy's wrist.
All three children eventually left Jasper Mountain, said their attorney,
David Paul of Portland. Paul is now suing Jasper Mountain in Lane County
Circuit Court.
"I'm not going to necessarily prove they were abused, but I'm going to
prove they weren't given appropriate care. And that's the standard here,
especially when you're taking care of children," Paul said.
But Ziegler said it's really the promise of money that's driving the
lawsuit. Paul "stepped forward and talked the families of the kids into
getting some money out of this," he said.
The three incidents within a nine-month period sparked a wave of
investigations by five state and federal agencies, including one by the
state Child Protective Services and one on behalf of the federal Centers
for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
Investigators criticized Jasper Mountain about its use of containment
holds, saying they should be used in emergencies only, and that a second
staff member should be on hand during holds to monitor the child's
well-being.
Investigators discovered that Jasper Mountain was relying on an improper
restraining hold, which involved putting a child's arm behind the
child's back and compelling the child to walk.
Child protective services eventually ruled that each allegation of child
abuse stemming from the broken bones were "unfounded" and that using the
improper hold was not -- by itself -- the basis for a finding of abuse,
according to state documents.
This year, however, another wing of the Human Services Department called
Addictions and Mental Health, which is in charge of certifying the
therapy at institutions, is continuing to scrutinize Jasper Mountain.
A pair of consultants -- including University of Oregon associate
professor Dan Close -- is studying the program and is expected to
produce
a report in January.
"It's to get us all comfortable with how they go about using any kind of
physical restraint," said Bob Nikkel, administrator of the mental health
unit.
"There's a place, I guess, for some kind of physical restraint. If
there's imminent danger, people need to do something. (But) there's so
much work that can be done with kids in programs to help them stave off
getting to that point. That's where we're trying to get."
The use of restraining holds is a controversial issue nationwide.
Government agencies are moving toward a position that restraining holds
should be reserved for rare circumstances.
But Ziegler is a nationally known proponent of using restraining holds
for therapeutic purposes.
"What (the state) would love to see is for us to negotiate and wheel and
deal with kids and never have another restraint ever," Ziegler said.
"That's a naive stance. There are therapeutic benefits to drawing a line
for kids and not letting violent kids get violent to themselves and get
violent to others and, at times, that requires physical direction."
In the past year, in the wake of the Jasper Mountain injuries, the
state's child protection agency revamped the way it responds to
allegations of child abuse when the child is a resident of a treatment
program.
In early December, the child welfare agency began reassigning such cases
from workers who monitor children in private homes to investigators who
normally scrutinize allegations of abuse at big institutions such as
adult psychiatric hospitals.
The switch took effect on Dec. 3. Three days later, the unit opened a
sex-abuse investigation at Jasper Mountain, Ziegler said.
In his view, he said, that's a sign that state officials are out to get
the agency.
"A 4-year-old has disclosed that another 4-year-old did something to him
in June of last year," Ziegler said. "I also think he said he was called
'stupid' by one of the staff."
Eva Kutas, head of the state investigative unit, said she is legally
barred from commenting about the situation.
In the courts, meanwhile, the civil case was filed in July in Multnomah
County but was transferred in November to Lane County at the request of
Jasper Mountain's lawyer.
No trial date has been set. Both sides say it's likely that they'll
settle out of court.
The state's earlier determination that the Jasper Mountain injuries were
not the result of child abuse will not hurt the civil case, attorney
Paul said.
While Ziegler takes on state bureaucrats, the staff at Jasper Mountain
is making improvements, said Bob Joondeph, executive director of the
Oregon Advocacy Center, which is congressionally mandated to monitor the
welfare of mentally ill people in institutions, including Jasper
Mountain,
"They're making the changes. Their staff are retraining," Joondeph said.
"It's as if the clinical and line staff are cooperating and working
positively, and (Ziegler) has just got some axes to grind of his own."
For a second time, Ziegler is calling on state lawmakers for help.
Several lawmakers, including Sen. Floyd Prozanski, D-Eugene, met with
Ziegler and top child-welfare officials in Salem last February.
Prozanski said there may soon be a second round of meetings with top
officials.
Prozanski said he doesn't know whether Jasper Mountain is being singled
out by regulators or whether there's a legitimate reason for the state's
concern. Prozanski said he's seen no evidence that the children have
been mistreated at Jasper Mountain.
"My perspective is that they are the certified smart people on both
sides. They should be able to sit down at a table. They should be able
to work out whatever the action plans are (and) address the issues of
concern," he said.
CURRENTLY CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES VIOLATES MORE CIVIL RIGHTS ON A
DAILY BASIS THEN ALL OTHER AGENCIES COMBINED INCLUDING THE NATIONAL
SECURITY AGENCY/CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY WIRETAPPING PROGRAMS....
CPS Does not protect children...
It is sickening how many children are subject to abuse, neglect and even
killed at the hands of Child Protective Services.
every parent should read this .pdf from
connecticut dcf watch...
http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com/8x11.pdf
http://www.connecticutdcfwatch.com
Number of Cases per 100,000 children in the US
These numbers come from The National Center on
Child Abuse and Neglect in Washington. (NCCAN)
Recent numbers have increased significantly for CPS
*Perpetrators of Maltreatment*
Physical Abuse CPS 160, Parents 59
Sexual Abuse CPS 112, Parents 13
Neglect CPS 410, Parents 241
Medical Neglect CPS 14 Parents 12
Fatalities CPS 6.4, Parents 1.5
Imagine that, 6.4 children die at the hands
...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I live 10 miles from Jasper. I have the staff"s so called (Safe
holds)
Theres nothing about it. My oldest child stayed at JASPER, he
was placed in a hold 3 diffrent times. The 1st time he stopped
breathing!
The last two times, his heart stopped beating, he was rushed to the
hospital by EMT'S, the paddles were used to bring him back! Now
where I come from, Thats abuse period.

Also I young girl died last week from Scar Jasper, she jumped
out a transport van and was struck by car. I wonder what excuse
her parents got?

How about, "she jumped out a transport van and was struck by car"? No
need for an excuse there, you said it all quite clearly.

"she jumped out a transport van", her choice. When one does something
like this one of the possible consequences is "struck by car", wouldn't
you say?

Now, it seems that you have some issues with the restraint techniques
that this facility uses. I will hazard a guess here and say that it is
likely that they use the training provided by the MANDT program
(http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEducationDepartment/stories/storyReader$28).
This training comes in several different levels, each designed for
specific requirements of control and relationship building.

You could always ask the staff what training they have. I'm sure that
would clear up some of your questions and give you an avenue for
additional education on the subject.

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

Greegor wrote:
Ronald Van Dyne, Omaha Foster contractor wrote
How about, "she jumped out a transport van and was struck by car"? No
need for an excuse there, you said it all quite clearly.

If this happenned on a parent's watch, they'd be crucified.

That would depend on the age of the child, dont you think gregg? If a 4
year old does it then you betcha, but if a 17 year old does, well then...


"she jumped out a transport van", her choice.

Minors don't get to make choices.

Sure they do gregg. All the time, every day. Parents know this, and
perhaps you don't because you aren't.


When one does something
like this one of the possible consequences is "struck by car", wouldn't
you say?

Now, it seems that you have some issues with the restraint techniques
that this facility uses.

You think it's only one person with these concerns?

Ya got me, but I'm pretty sure there are problems with every restraint
technique there is, somewhere. Always will be. People like to complain
about things they have no control over. Sound familiar to you gregg?


I will hazard a guess here and say that it is
likely that they use the training provided by the MANDT program

The bureaucratic answer is just NOT reassuring.

Not a "bureaucratic answer" gregg, just an educated one from an
individual in the field. They could be using other types of techniques,
but this is the most common right now.


http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEducationDepartment/stories/storyReader$28

http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEdu
cationDepartment/stories/storyReader$28

Do you think these restraint standards apply to the
setting involved in this story?

Were you there gregg? I didnt see your name in the story anywhere.


What are the standards for cardiac arrest as a result of restraint?

Do you know what "restraint" means gregg? "cardiac arrest" is not a
result of restraint, unless its the heart that is being restrained (and
there is another term for that).


This training comes in several different levels, each designed for
specific requirements of control and relationship building.

You could always ask the staff what training they have. I'm sure that
would clear up some of your questions and give you an avenue for
additional education on the subject.

Usually the staff in general is dismally unqualified and under
trained,

Interesting belief there gregg. Have you ever performed these duties
yourself? Or is this just an opinion like every other opinion of yours?
One without a shred of support or data?

but when confronted they say that the organization is licensed
or point out the few highly trained zealots they do have on staff.

The single biggest clue should be that on entry
they ask you to sign away your right to sue them
for malpractice and such abuse.

Oh, well now you should be one of the first to recognize that criminal
negligence is not protected by those types of agreements. Or maybe not,
since it interferes with your argument, right gregg? After all, you
cant allow the facts to get in the way of your personal belief structure
now can you?

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

Greegor wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:18 pm, Ron wrote:
Greegor wrote:
Ronald Van Dyne, Omaha Foster contractor wrote
How about, "she jumped out a transport van and was struck by car"? No
need for an excuse there, you said it all quite clearly.
If this happenned on a parent's watch, they'd be crucified.
That would depend on the age of the child, dont you think gregg? If a 4
year old does it then you betcha, but if a 17 year old does, well then...



"she jumped out a transport van", her choice.
Minors don't get to make choices.
Sure they do gregg. All the time, every day. Parents know this, and
perhaps you don't because you aren't.

You mean like when a 17 year old brings dealer quantity of
drugs into the parents home?

No gregg..... Decisions, ya know, what to wear, when to lie, when to
tell the truth, which game to play, to do their homework, all the little
decisions that make up life as a child knows it.


Parents are held responsible for those situations aren't they?
I seem to recall incidents where families lost their home this way.

Could be gregg. Could also not be. I knew a kid once that had pot
plants in his bedroom, with the full knowledge of his mother. Explain
that one for me if you can.


But if the very same parents search their kids rooms
thoroughly and on a regular basis, they can be
charged for invading their child's privacy!

No, they cant. Once again, Black Letter Law. Look it up, I'm not going
to waste my time trying to convince you that you are wrong. You look
enough like an idiot as it is without my assistance.

Would you explain that one, Ron?

I have never heard of a Foster parent being punished
when a foster teen brings in drugs!

Gee gregg, I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe you should listen more
closely, or read more.

I'll tell ya what, next time I hear of a foster parent being prosecuted
for something that one of their foster children do I'll let you know.


When one does something
like this one of the possible consequences is "struck by car", wouldn't
you say?
Now, it seems that you have some issues with the restraint techniques
that this facility uses.
You think it's only one person with these concerns?
Ya got me, but I'm pretty sure there are problems with every restraint
technique there is, somewhere. Always will be. People like to complain
about things they have no control over.

Are you saying citizens don't have control over physical restraint?

Nope, just you gregg. Using physical restraints usually requires some
level of work and training, both of which you avoid.


Sound familiar to you gregg?

Is this an example of peaceful discussion Ron?

Who asked for it to be peaceful gregg? I asked a question, and as usual
you avoided answering it. One cannot have a discussion unless both
parties participate, and so far your posting history shows that this is
against your religion.


I will hazard a guess here and say that it is
likely that they use the training provided by the MANDT program
The bureaucratic answer is just NOT reassuring.
Not a "bureaucratic answer" gregg, just an educated one from an
individual in the field.

Are you "in the field" or are you a "has been"?

A little bit of both gregg. Now, try and figure out what I mean by that.


They could be using other types of techniques,
but this is the most common right now.



http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEduc...ries/storyRead...
http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEdu
cationDepartment/stories/storyReader$28
Do you think these restraint standards apply to the
setting involved in this story?
Were you there gregg? I didnt see your name in the story anywhere.

Ya see, now, you talked up peaceful discussion but
then a perfectly reasonable question sets you off
on this kind of stuff!

I dont remember asking anyone in this thread to do anything peaceful
gregg. Not you, not I, not the individual that I originally responded
to (Who obviously was not you). And along comes greggeor, sticking his
nose into a conversation that:

1. He obviously knows nothing about
2. Was not asked into
3. Keeps making references to things that I have not said
4. Helps you make even more of an ass of yourself than you are able to
accomplish elsewhere.


Do you think these restraint standards apply to the
setting involved in this story?

What part of this question was somehow unfair Ron?

Do you really think that "educational" standards
are also used in residential psychiatric facilities
for teens?


Yep. Can you provide us with any evidence to the contrary?

What are the standards for cardiac arrest as a result of restraint?
Do you know what "restraint" means gregg? "cardiac arrest" is not a
result of restraint, unless its the heart that is being restrained (and
there is another term for that).



This training comes in several different levels, each designed for
specific requirements of control and relationship building.

"relationship building"?
Please explain this part about restraint and relationship building
some more!

Does anything about that combination strike you as odd?

Read the web page gregg.

Better yet, read this one:

http://www.mandtsystem.com/

It tells more about the system than I can, I am only a graduate.

You could always ask the staff what training they have. I'm sure that
would clear up some of your questions and give you an avenue for
additional education on the subject.
Usually the staff in general is dismally unqualified and under
trained,
Interesting belief there gregg. Have you ever performed these duties
yourself? Or is this just an opinion like every other opinion of yours?
One without a shred of support or data?

Observation of an LSS ""Social Worker"" on the witness stand
as I cross examined her.

Your own personal observations. Hmmm, as if there was anything more
suspect in this news group than that. How can you observe anything
gregg when you intentionally blind yourself to so much?

I was greatly amused when she tried to complain that I
wasn't supposed to have the e-mails between her
and the DHS staff, as she discovered that I did.

Did she violate a law by complaining about this gregg?


The Judge pointed out that the STATE had introduced
the material, not me, and that I did have a right
to cross examine it.

Earlier I had cross examined her about her complete
lack of licensure, for SW and for ""therapy"".

but when confronted they say that the organization is licensed
or point out the few highly trained zealots they do have on staff.
The single biggest clue should be that on entry
they ask you to sign away your right to sue them
for malpractice and such abuse.
Oh, well now you should be one of the first to recognize that criminal
negligence is not protected by those types of agreements. Or maybe not,
since it interferes with your argument, right gregg?

But Ron, you know very well that Civil Remedies ARE prevented
by such waivers and that often Civil Remedies are more
important to actual CHANGE than the likelyhood of a
prosecutor going after a criminal charge.

No gregg, they are not. No agreement preventing civil liabilities can
violate the law, and covering up a crime is in itself a crime, and
therefore a violation of the law, which of course means that the
agreement is null and void on its face. Another case of Black Letter
Law for ya gregg. Geez, with all of your experience with the law
(*cough cough*) I would think that you would know more than you are
displaying here. Gee gregg, care to make any more inane statements
about the law?

You do know that civil suits are being used
more and more to ""incapacitate"" criminals
that the courts can't put in prison, right?

"incapacitate", hmmm, and by that you mean?


It cuts out the "prosecutor's descretion" problem also.

I'm not sure what "descretion" is gregg. Care to explain it a bit more?


After all, you cant allow the facts to get in the way
of your personal belief structure now can you?

The propaganda from your side of the issue
is more than a little bit dogmatic and the
"belief structure" comprises an agency culture
and thousands of UNION employees.

I'm not in a union gregg. Never have been. So, given your statement I
could not be a state employee, right? If that is so then why have you
been saying all these years that I am?


For you to attack others using an assertion
of "cult like" beliefs is rediculous and likely
to backfire on you, as an extension of such
large organizations, Ron.

I was not attacking anyone but you gregg. You invite it, and I just
cant seem to hold myself back from taking you up on the offer. Your
such a pathetic figure that I honestly should have quite a bit of pity
for you, but I just cant bring myself to feel that way for an admitted
child abuser.

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

Greegor wrote:
G If child abuse is a CRIME, then why wasn't I charged?

DS There are levels of abuse, greg.
DS Do you NOT know that by now?

Ron is the one who commented about it being CRIME!

I dont know why you were not charged gregg. You should have been, so
maybe you should be thanking whatever deity you believe in for your luck.


G I have admitted to things that you have personally
G defined as child abuse. That doesn't mean squat.

DS What you have admitted to has been determined by
DS the authorities in the State of Iowa to be child abuse.

Unnamed, untitled "authorities" eh?

How about the legislature of the State of Iowa there gregg? Even in
Iowa child abuse is a crime.


DS That's why you're on the State Child Abuse Registry.

According to you, you were on New York's FIVE TIMES.
Yet now you are cocky about what ""authorities"" determine?
Did you ever call the caseworker in your cases an "authority", Dan?

Did you miss what has been happenning to abuse
registries across the country and why, Dan?

Registries are NOT up to required standards and
have been tossed out, or eliminated permanently.
Complete lack of due process, unconstitutional.

Remember when I had to educate you about the
res judicata scam blowing up in Iowa, Dan?

IOW, since you are not denying Dan's statement, you admit that you are
on the local registry. Hmmm, how come I'm not surprised.

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:11:44 -0600, Ron
wrote:



Greegor wrote:
G If child abuse is a CRIME, then why wasn't I charged?

DS There are levels of abuse, greg.
DS Do you NOT know that by now?

Ron is the one who commented about it being CRIME!

I dont know why you were not charged gregg. You should have been, so
maybe you should be thanking whatever deity you believe in for your luck.


The burden is different. The burden for being placed on the
registry is much lower than the burden for proving guilt in court.


G I have admitted to things that you have personally
G defined as child abuse. That doesn't mean squat.

DS What you have admitted to has been determined by
DS the authorities in the State of Iowa to be child abuse.

Unnamed, untitled "authorities" eh?

How about the legislature of the State of Iowa there gregg? Even in
Iowa child abuse is a crime.

It is.
Proving it BARD is the key when it comes to a crime. It was
proved twice that Greg abused his mentally disabled wife (once he
plead guilty, which in the eyes of the law is the same as being found
guilty at trial).
I don't know the details of the abuse he inflicted on Lisa's
daughter. It's clear there was enough evidence to warrant the
complaint being founded. However, that doesn't mean there's enough to
take the matter to trial.



DS That's why you're on the State Child Abuse Registry.

According to you, you were on New York's FIVE TIMES.
Yet now you are cocky about what ""authorities"" determine?
Did you ever call the caseworker in your cases an "authority", Dan?

Did you miss what has been happenning to abuse
registries across the country and why, Dan?

Registries are NOT up to required standards and
have been tossed out, or eliminated permanently.
Complete lack of due process, unconstitutional.

Remember when I had to educate you about the
res judicata scam blowing up in Iowa, Dan?

IOW, since you are not denying Dan's statement, you admit that you are
on the local registry. Hmmm, how come I'm not surprised.


Greg's been shockingly honest about being on the abuse
registry. You'd think he'd want that kept quite.


--
Kent
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons...
for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Kent Wills wrote:
On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:11:44 -0600, Ron
wrote:


Greegor wrote:
G If child abuse is a CRIME, then why wasn't I charged?

DS There are levels of abuse, greg.
DS Do you NOT know that by now?

Ron is the one who commented about it being CRIME!
I dont know why you were not charged gregg. You should have been, so
maybe you should be thanking whatever deity you believe in for your luck.


The burden is different. The burden for being placed on the
registry is much lower than the burden for proving guilt in court.

G I have admitted to things that you have personally
G defined as child abuse. That doesn't mean squat.

DS What you have admitted to has been determined by
DS the authorities in the State of Iowa to be child abuse.

Unnamed, untitled "authorities" eh?
How about the legislature of the State of Iowa there gregg? Even in
Iowa child abuse is a crime.

It is.
Proving it BARD is the key when it comes to a crime. It was
proved twice that Greg abused his mentally disabled wife (once he
plead guilty, which in the eyes of the law is the same as being found
guilty at trial).
I don't know the details of the abuse he inflicted on Lisa's
daughter. It's clear there was enough evidence to warrant the
complaint being founded. However, that doesn't mean there's enough to
take the matter to trial.

DS That's why you're on the State Child Abuse Registry.

According to you, you were on New York's FIVE TIMES.
Yet now you are cocky about what ""authorities"" determine?
Did you ever call the caseworker in your cases an "authority", Dan?

Did you miss what has been happenning to abuse
registries across the country and why, Dan?

Registries are NOT up to required standards and
have been tossed out, or eliminated permanently.
Complete lack of due process, unconstitutional.

Remember when I had to educate you about the
res judicata scam blowing up in Iowa, Dan?
IOW, since you are not denying Dan's statement, you admit that you are
on the local registry. Hmmm, how come I'm not surprised.


Greg's been shockingly honest about being on the abuse
registry. You'd think he'd want that kept quite.



I dont know if I would call it "honest", but at least he is not denying
it.

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

Greegor wrote:
On Dec 25, 10:35 pm, Kent Wills wrote:
On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:11:44 -0600, Ron
wrote:



Greegor wrote:
G If child abuse is a CRIME, then why wasn't I charged?
DS There are levels of abuse, greg.
DS Do you NOT know that by now?
Ron is the one who commented about it being CRIME!
I dont know why you were not charged gregg. You should have been, so
maybe you should be thanking whatever deity you believe in for your luck.
The burden is different. The burden for being placed on the
registry is much lower than the burden for proving guilt in court.



G I have admitted to things that you have personally
G defined as child abuse. That doesn't mean squat.
DS What you have admitted to has been determined by
DS the authorities in the State of Iowa to be child abuse.
Unnamed, untitled "authorities" eh?
How about the legislature of the State of Iowa there gregg? Even in
Iowa child abuse is a crime.
It is.
Proving it BARD is the key when it comes to a crime. It was
proved twice that Greg abused his mentally disabled wife (once he
plead guilty, which in the eyes of the law is the same as being found
guilty at trial).
I don't know the details of the abuse he inflicted on Lisa's
daughter. It's clear there was enough evidence to warrant the
complaint being founded. However, that doesn't mean there's enough to
take the matter to trial.







DS That's why you're on the State Child Abuse Registry.
According to you, you were on New York's FIVE TIMES.
Yet now you are cocky about what ""authorities"" determine?
Did you ever call the caseworker in your cases an "authority", Dan?
Did you miss what has been happenning to abuse
registries across the country and why, Dan?
Registries are NOT up to required standards and
have been tossed out, or eliminated permanently.
Complete lack of due process, unconstitutional.
Remember when I had to educate you about the
res judicata scam blowing up in Iowa, Dan?
IOW, since you are not denying Dan's statement, you admit that you are
on the local registry. Hmmm, how come I'm not surprised.
Greg's been shockingly honest about being on the abuse
registry. You'd think he'd want that kept quite.

Kept quiet?

Nope.

State registries are one notch above a bad Hollywood Tabloid.

This is why they end up being so expensive for states
when people sue regarding them.

People were put on them so willy nilly that
they basically became worse than useless.

That's why they have been wiped clean or
eliminated in some states.

Iowa actually got caught running theirs like a scam.

The routine was that firstly, if somebody actually
manages to file for correction ON TIME, the state
sat on them till hell froze. If the citizens complained
after about a year about no action, they got a hearing
which was a foregone conclusion, to "put off" the
registry hearing until the judicial process is over.
In our case, the judicial process became a marathon,
never exactly ending. Even more stupidly is that
MY personal registry mark was put on hold until
the end of a judicial process that I was not
allowed to even be a legal party to.

As I understand it, if a case IS resolved and ends in
Juvenile Court, the registry hearing never actually
changes anything, saying "res judicata"
(it has already been decided).

Iowa ran this scam for YEARS, until somebody
threatened to go to a higher court so the state
high court fixed it rather than get slapped by a
Federal court.

The GRANT decision started the end to the scam.

State child abuse registries don't mean diddly squat.

Actually gregg, they mean quite a bit. You can be denied employment
based upon them, you can be denied a living place because of them, and
it places your name available (along with your address and other
information) to anyone with an internet connection.

I know the employment issue is of no concern for you, but you still have
to live somewhere.

Ron


--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com

tlwaggoner wrote:
On Dec 25, 8:35 pm, Kent Wills wrote:
On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:11:44 -0600, Ron
wrote:



Greegor wrote:
G If child abuse is a CRIME, then why wasn't I charged?
DS There are levels of abuse, greg.
DS Do you NOT know that by now?
Ron is the one who commented about it being CRIME!
I dont know why you were not charged gregg. You should have been, so
maybe you should be thanking whatever deity you believe in for your luck.
The burden is different. The burden for being placed on the
registry is much lower than the burden for proving guilt in court.



G I have admitted to things that you have personally
G defined as child abuse. That doesn't mean squat.
DS What you have admitted to has been determined by
DS the authorities in the State of Iowa to be child abuse.
Unnamed, untitled "authorities" eh?
How about the legislature of the State of Iowa there gregg? Even in
Iowa child abuse is a crime.
It is.
Proving it BARD is the key when it comes to a crime. It was
proved twice that Greg abused his mentally disabled wife (once he
plead guilty, which in the eyes of the law is the same as being found
guilty at trial).
I don't know the details of the abuse he inflicted on Lisa's
daughter. It's clear there was enough evidence to warrant the
complaint being founded. However, that doesn't mean there's enough to
take the matter to trial.







DS That's why you're on the State Child Abuse Registry.
According to you, you were on New York's FIVE TIMES.
Yet now you are cocky about what ""authorities"" determine?
Did you ever call the caseworker in your cases an "authority", Dan?
Did you miss what has been happenning to abuse
registries across the country and why, Dan?
Registries are NOT up to required standards and
have been tossed out, or eliminated permanently.
Complete lack of due process, unconstitutional.
Remember when I had to educate you about the
res judicata scam blowing up in Iowa, Dan?
IOW, since you are not denying Dan's statement, you admit that you are
on the local registry. Hmmm, how come I'm not surprised.
Greg's been shockingly honest about being on the abuse
registry. You'd think he'd want that kept quite.

--
Kent
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons...
for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How about, "she jumped out a transport van and was struck by car"?
No
need for an excuse there, you said it all quite clearly.

"she jumped out a transport van", her choice. When one does
something
like this one of the possible consequences is "struck by car",
wouldn't
you say?


Now, it seems that you have some issues with the restraint techniques
that this facility uses. I will hazard a guess here and say that it
is
likely that they use the training provided by the MANDT program
(http://teachers.esu8.org/SpecialEduc...tment/stories/
storyRead...).
This training comes in several different levels, each designed for
specific requirements of control and relationship building.


You could always ask the staff what training they have. I'm sure
that
would clear up some of your questions and give you an avenue for
additional education on the subject.


Ron
The girl in question was not 17 years old. She was 12,

OK, and at 12 she should have known that there wound be consequences for
that action, right?

Scar Jasper Mountain was in trusted to keep her safe. She should've
been in a safty harness, and the doors have child safety locks, that
were'nt
ingaged. If they had been the child would'nt have been able to leap
from the van.


A safety harness? As in a 5 point car seat? A 5 point crash harness
that a race driver might use? A Riftin Chair?

Sorry TL, even a 12 year old knows how to get out of a seatbelt and
unlock a door. Lets try and be reasonable, shall we?

Scar Jasper Mountain is for children who suffer from
Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, and other mood disorders. They also
treat children who are victims of physical & sexual abuse.
Jasper is in trusted with the childrens care, We fully expect Scar
to keep the children in their care ALIVE & SAFE..

And restrained it seems.

Sorry TL, it is not possible to keep everyone or even anyone safe from
every possible harm that may be out there. And it certainly is not
possible when the individual themselves insist on engaging in dangerous
activities. Lets try and be reasonable, shall we?


And please don't tell me about the staff being trained
in safty holds. I've personaly seen the "Highly Trained Staff"
use these "Safty Holds" there is NOTHING SAFE ABOUT IT!!

An interesting opinion. Backed by what training or education? Are you
an LEO? A prison guard? A defensive training instructor?


I seen two grown men who weighted at least 200lbs
pin a child of 8 who weighted maybe 60 lbs, face down
on the ground, with her little arms pulled up behind her back,
one of the men had his arm across the side of her face,
with his knee in her upper back, and his ass on her lower back.
The big highly trained man was sitting on her leggs.

One man in three different places at the same time? I'd not call that
training, I'd call him a contortionist.


My son was placed in the BASKET HOLD, Three
Separate times. Each time he went into CARDIAC ARREST!
So yes I have a problem with that, DAMN RIGHT I DO.

Explain "BASKET HOLD" please. Its a term I am not familiar with.

No hold can cause an individual to cardiac arrest, sorry its just not
possible. Other factors must be involved for that to happen. A
reasonable "cause and effect" chain from what you are saying just does
not exist.


What excuse would you find justifiable if
my son would have died? Which could have easy
have happened, after all the Medic's had use the paddles
on him more than once to bring him back.

Sounds like your son has a heart condition. It also sounds like you
have no interest in confirming that as such a condition would remove the
blame from the facility if anything were to happen.


Im sorry MS Waggoner, we at Scar Jasper Mountain
are highly trained in SAFETY HOLDS. If your 5 year old
Bi-Polar son would have desculated like asked, this would not
have happened.

To be honest with you TL, your story just does not hold together. I'm
sure that you have some concerns with the facility and its staff, but it
also sounds like you have a major ax to grind with the system and with
the facility. Far to much of an ax for us to get an objective statement
of the situation or a viable opinion.

Ron

--
Kenneth Pangborn (AKA KRP) is a lying sack of ****!

Proof at:

www.aboutkenpangborn.com