How to break 4 year old from shyness?

In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Catherine Woodgold says...

Sarah Vaughan ) writes:
If this is the case, then those suggestions would be
helpful – but if she's actually quite happy just standing and
watching,
then I think most of these suggestions would have the potential of
making things worse, by making her feel as though there's some
sort of
problem or that she's doing something wrong when she didn't
initially
feel this way.

What? I don't remember seeing any suggestions that involved
giving the girl the impression that there is something
wrong with her.

For example, I suggested inviting another child into the
home regularly. I did not suggest telling this girl to
play with that child. I think the parents should play with
the guest.


What?? Playdates are for the parents to play with the visiting
child, while
their own child stays off and does something else?? What the heck
is the point
of that? It doesn't make sense from *anyone's* viewpoint. Not the
child, not
the parents, and especially not the visiting child and his/her
parents. Kid
ain't props.

But in *this* case, the point of the playdate would be to get the OP's
child more used to other children. Trying to insist that the children
play together might backfire, but if the mom is playing with the other
child, her own child is more likely to join in. As a mom who has
worked *very* hard on her child's social skills, I can tell you how
valuable something like this can be.

Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her parents. The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a playdate with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too. A kid of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think the emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me and exposing me
to children my age". :-/


A lot of times, Catherine, your advice is either scattershot (this
book, that
book, this vitamin that vitamin) or just plain whacked.

This just seems mean-spirited and unnecessary to me.


After reading long rambling top-of-the-head Catherine posts, sometimes it just
outs. Sure, folks can read and take what they want, but, jees, we can all
brainstorm - I don't think ideas are much good unless there's some real
expertise and/or experience or at least a little understanding of human nature
behind them.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40
says...

But in *this* case, the point of the playdate would be to get the
OP's
child more used to other children. Trying to insist that the
children
play together might backfire, but if the mom is playing with the
other
child, her own child is more likely to join in. As a mom who has
worked *very* hard on her child's social skills, I can tell you how
valuable something like this can be.

Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her
parents. The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a
playdate with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too.
A kid of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think the
emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me and
exposing me
to children my age". :-/

Well, I don't know exactly how Catherine meant it of course, but I
don't think it has to be, "Can you bring Suzie over so that she and I
can sit there and play?" When DD was younger and very shy, I made
sure to keep trying to have friends over. When they were younger, the
mom would be there too, and so the mom and I would converse, the kids
would play -- maybe with us, maybe with each other, maybe by
themselves, but over time, DD would get a bit more comfortable with
that child. When she was enough older that the moms wouldn't come,
I'd be more likely to invite kids that I thought DD liked or might
like, and then I'd have crafts and things for them to do so that they
could interact as much or little as they wanted, but they always had
things to do. I also gave parties -- those were good because several
kids would come, and if DD wasn't playing with them, they had each
other. They were small parties of course because I still wanted it to
be intimate enough for her to get comfortable with the other kids.

The general idea was to get the kids over here so that DD could get to
know them one-on-one instead of in the larger group settings at school
where she didn't do so well.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Banty" wrote in message
Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her parents.
The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a playdate
with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too. A kid
of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think the
emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me and
exposing me
to children my age". :-/

Well, I don't know exactly how Catherine meant it of course, but I don't
think it has to be, "Can you bring Suzie over so that she and I can sit
there and play?"

I sure got the same image Banty did, and I have to agree with Banty. The
child coming over wants to play with the child, not the mother. You were
not doing that, but Catherine was suggesting that.

"toypup" wrote in message
et...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Banty" wrote in message
Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her
parents. The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a
playdate with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too.
A kid of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think
the emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me
and exposing me
to children my age". :-/

Well, I don't know exactly how Catherine meant it of course, but I
don't think it has to be, "Can you bring Suzie over so that she and
I can sit there and play?"

I sure got the same image Banty did, and I have to agree with Banty.
The child coming over wants to play with the child, not the mother.
You were not doing that, but Catherine was suggesting that.

What she said originally was, "Try to gradually get her used to ONE
(or a very few) other child. Arrange to have another child visit in
the home frequently -- perhaps a next-door-neighbour, or someone you
offer to babysit frequently. Preferably someone not too hyperactive
or violent. Expect her to be shy in the presence of this other child
for a long time, but eventually to get used to the child and treat
him/her more like a member of the family."

The part about the parent playing with the other child came later as
she tried to clarify that she wasn't just suggesting pushing this
other child on the OP's child whether she liked it or not. I'll admit
it sounds rather odd out of context, but as one of the things she was
suggesting was offering to baby-sit, it makes more sense. If you were
baby-sitting a child, you would consider that child's entertainment to
be your responsibility.

So, on the whole, I really think she is just trying to suggest having
one or two kids over frequently enough that the child has time to get
used to them slowly.

Bizby

In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40
says...

But in *this* case, the point of the playdate would be to get the
OP's
child more used to other children. Trying to insist that the
children
play together might backfire, but if the mom is playing with the
other
child, her own child is more likely to join in. As a mom who has
worked *very* hard on her child's social skills, I can tell you how
valuable something like this can be.

Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her
parents. The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a
playdate with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too.
A kid of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think the
emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me and
exposing me
to children my age". :-/

Well, I don't know exactly how Catherine meant it of course, but I
don't think it has to be, "Can you bring Suzie over so that she and I
can sit there and play?" When DD was younger and very shy, I made
sure to keep trying to have friends over. When they were younger, the
mom would be there too, and so the mom and I would converse, the kids
would play -- maybe with us, maybe with each other, maybe by
themselves, but over time, DD would get a bit more comfortable with
that child. When she was enough older that the moms wouldn't come,
I'd be more likely to invite kids that I thought DD liked or might
like, and then I'd have crafts and things for them to do so that they
could interact as much or little as they wanted, but they always had
things to do. I also gave parties -- those were good because several
kids would come, and if DD wasn't playing with them, they had each
other. They were small parties of course because I still wanted it to
be intimate enough for her to get comfortable with the other kids.

The general idea was to get the kids over here so that DD could get to
know them one-on-one instead of in the larger group settings at school
where she didn't do so well.


That sounds more like a regular playdate.

I do think there's a danger of overwhelming a child who is "shy" simply because
she isn't as social as other kids, with other kids trying to get them not to be
shy. It does impart the message of "you're not quite OK; you're supposed to
take joy in socializing and often". Although I also think that a lot of the
idea behind playdates is to replace the neighborhood cohort of kids that
neighborhoods are often lacking.

Banty

"toypup" wrote:


"bizby40" wrote in message
m...

"Banty" wrote in message
Look at it from the other child's point of view, and his/her parents.
The
visiting child is being used as a prop. Why, would you make a playdate
with the
*parent* to play? And it puts the child at home on the spot, too. A kid
of her
own age is invited over for *Mommy* to play with. I don't think the
emotions
felt would be "hey look my Mommy is modelling friendship for me and
exposing me
to children my age". :-/

Well, I don't know exactly how Catherine meant it of course, but I don't
think it has to be, "Can you bring Suzie over so that she and I can sit
there and play?"

I sure got the same image Banty did, and I have to agree with Banty. The
child coming over wants to play with the child, not the mother. You were
not doing that, but Catherine was suggesting that.

I was thinking that if the mom has ONE child who is self-contained, it is
likely (IME) that if the mom has one or two other children over which the
mom pays a lot of attention to, that would foster jealousy more than
anything else. And I think this would be true, actually, whether it was
an only child or not, but maybe more with an only child.

Two incidents make me think this way. With dd#1, I went to visit a long
time friend of mine - we both had one child - hers was a boy. He
apparently thought that his mom was paying too much attention to dd#1 (who
of course was an adorable curly headed quiet child), and he whammed her
over the head with a metal locomotive, which opened up a small cut in her
scalp. IIRC, she didn't cry or anything and his mom was really
embarrassed, but I wasn't upset. Also, I've got a picture of me sitting
with my niece on my lap, and dd#3 is clinging fiercely to my skirt and
bawling red-faced. She was NOT happy with me holding another child. At
the time, she was the youngest of 3 (an another adorable curly head).

I often don't get the first post in a series and have to get it when
someone quotes it, and I didn't pay much attention to the beginning of this
thread because I thought that the idea of 'breaking' a child of something
like shyness was at best an unfortunate choice of words, and was likely to
be a recipe for disaster. So I didn't 'get' that it might be another child
that you baby sit for. But in any case I think you have to respect the
child's feelings . If she doesn't want to socialize, she shouldn't be
forced or made to feel that her preferences don't matter.

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
Sarah Vaughan ) writes:

If this is the case, then those suggestions would be
helpful – but if she's actually quite happy just standing and watching,
then I think most of these suggestions would have the potential of
making things worse, by making her feel as though there's some sort of
problem or that she's doing something wrong when she didn't initially
feel this way.


What? I don't remember seeing any suggestions that involved
giving the girl the impression that there is something
wrong with her.

Not deliberately, no. However, the basic assumption behind both the OP
and many of the replies was that the girl shouldn't be doing things this
way and that the goal was for her to start doing them a different way.
That's the message the girl's going to pick up. And, if the way she's
doing things is the way that's actually comfortable for her, that she's
happy with - well, it's not too hard for that to edge into "There's
something wrong with me for not wanting to be more sociable."

For example, I suggested inviting another child into the
home regularly. I did not suggest telling this girl to
play with that child. I think the parents should play with
the guest.

That makes it clearer, but am I the only one who wouldn't have figured
that out from reading the post as written? When someone suggests that
parents of a child invite another child round, surely the natural
assumption is that this is in order for the two children to play
together? (On a practical point - if the OP does try your suggestion,
he'll need to be sure that the parents of the other child are clear that
the purpose of the visit is for her to play with the parent and not the
child. Some children have the opposite problem of playing happily with
other kids yet feeling shy around adults, so it may not be very fair to
let a misunderstanding occur there.)


All the best,

Sarah

--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

But how do we _know_ that nobody ever said on their deathbed that they
wished they’d spent more time at the office?

"toypup" ) writes:
The
child coming over wants to play with the child, not the mother.

I'm not convinced of that. We don't even know who
the child would be. If it's another child similar to
the OP's daughter, for example, the child may well
prefer to play with the parents. IMO lots of young
children, especially around age 2 or 3, prefer to interact
with adults than with children. They may ignore other
children, or just watch them.

If a child is invited over and prefers to play with
the parents, that doesn't mean the parents are obligated
to play with the child. The guest may have a preference
as to who to play with, but the preference of the other
person has to be taken into account, too. Having invited
someone over, I think reasonable entertainment should
be provided, but it doesn't have to come
from any particular family member.

Besides, if all the people are in the same room,
the guest may feel as if he/she is playing "with"
the child who lives there, even if there is
little or no direct interaction.

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
If a child is invited over and prefers to play with
the parents, that doesn't mean the parents are obligated
to play with the child. The guest may have a preference
as to who to play with, but the preference of the other
person has to be taken into account, too. Having invited
someone over, I think reasonable entertainment should
be provided, but it doesn't have to come
from any particular family member.

Oh, I thought you said, "I did not suggest telling this girl to
play with that child. I think the parents should play with
the guest."


Besides, if all the people are in the same room,
the guest may feel as if he/she is playing "with"
the child who lives there, even if there is
little or no direct interaction.

I'm not so sure that is true, if the child is past the age of parallel play.

Sarah Vaughan ) writes:
That makes it clearer, but am I the only one who wouldn't have figured
that out from reading the post as written? When someone suggests that
parents of a child invite another child round, surely the natural
assumption is that this is in order for the two children to play
together? (On a practical point - if the OP does try your suggestion,
he'll need to be sure that the parents of the other child are clear that
the purpose of the visit is for her to play with the parent and not the
child. Some children have the opposite problem of playing happily with
other kids yet feeling shy around adults, so it may not be very fair to
let a misunderstanding occur there.)

The purpose of the visit is for the two children to play
together, not for the adult to play with the child.
There may also be other purposes, e.g. babysitting.
The adult's responsibility is to make sure the
guest is entertained one way or another.
I think it would be reasonable to tell the parents
of the other child that one's own child is shy
and might not play together much at first,
if it's likely that the parents would feel cheated
otherwise. I don't think the parents would be
likely to feel cheated in any case. Lots of
children are shy. I don't think one has to
disclose all details of one's child's personality
type just to invite a guest over. If they
don't enjoy the visit, they can decline the next
time (if their parents
let them). One could use some knowledge of personality
types when deciding what child to invite in the
first place.

In some cases, it may be helpful to tell a child
to interact with another child: e.g. "Bring out one
of your games and show it to the guest." or
"Say hello to Suzy." With a very shy child, at
least at first I think it's better not to make
these requests, and let the shy child just watch
or decide how to interact. After some
familiarity with the other child, requests that
are not too much of a stretch for the shy child
may be OK. I think a request to say "hello"
when someone arrives may tend to be particularly
diffficult for a shy child, for example.
They have to get used to behaviours step-by-step;
being forced to do very difficult things
may make things worse.

On each visit, the shy child may watch for
a period of time and then begin to interact.