9 month old sleep issues

Hi,

I have another issue and I'd like to gather some opinions. My son is
9.5 months old. Our sleep situation has always been tolerable, but I
think it's making a transition to the intolerable side.

There are two specific sleep problems I'm having--getting him to
sleep, and number of night wakings.

First, about getting him to sleep. For the first 4 months of his life
he fell asleep quickly and well, but wouldn't let me put him down
without him waking. At 4 months we bought _The No Cry Sleep Solution_
and it worked like a charm for nighttime. After a few weeks of doing
as the book suggested (clear and peaceful bedtime routine, early
bedtime, put him down when he's asleep and when he wakes resettle
him--repeat over and over until he stayed down.) he would nurse to
sleep and let me put him down after just 10 to 15 minutes. Perfect!
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time. Tonight it took 1 hour and 40
minutes. We nursed, rocked, sat quietly, switched to daddy doing it,
etc. He just wouldn't give it up. This has become typical of bedtime
and naps for 2 months now. Occasionally he'll fall asleep ok, in
20-30 minutes, but nights like tonight are driving me nuts. We do
watch for the first signs of tiredness and try to put him to nap/bed
before he even has a chance to get to the whiney/yawny phase. His
bedtime routine is started at 7:15, and we like to have him asleep by
8. He will wake up for the day at 7:30 or 8. Which leads me to the
next problem.

Although he is in bed about 12 total hours at night, he wakes up a
lot. Every night varies how many times he will wake. The most usual
pattern is for him to fall asleep at 8, wake up at 10, 12, 4, 6, 6:30,
7:30, 8. I only nurse him 2-3 of those times though. Sometimes he'll
sleep an eight hour stretch from 8 p.m. until 4 a.m., sometimes he's
up every two hours all night long, sometimes he'll sleep 2 five hour
stretches and be up every half hour until 8 a.m. It has just never
been predictable. I've thought about cutting out all nursing between
say, midnight and 5. But, if he sleeps from 8-3, I know he's hungry
at 3, so I feed him. I do only feed him 2 or 3 times a night, the
other wakings I just pick him up for 5-10 minutes and he's back
asleep. If he woke up just twice in a 12 hour stretch, I'd feel
blessed. Do you have any ideas how I can make that happen?

His naps are ok, though it does take a long time to get him to sleep.
He has a morning nap and an afternoon nap, each of which are about 1.5
hours (usually with one time of me going in and resettling him) on a
good day. Some days he'll wake up after sleeping for 30 minutes and
won't be resettled to sleep longer.

Our bed situation is this: his crib is set up as a side-car to our
bed. One side is off and it's right next to my side of the bed. I
sit up to nurse him or resettle him, and put him back in the crib to
sleep. By 5 or 6 in the morning, I usually just keep him right next
to me because he wakes up so often in the mornings. I've thought
about having my husband take over the night wakings that I'm not going
to nurse him, but he does resettle fine for me when I hold him without
nursing.

In my opinion, he exhibits some signs of sleep deprivation. I try so
hard but don't know how to get him more sleep with fewer wakings.

Thank you very much, and please let me know if I need to include more
information. Oh, also I know it's not teething. He already has 10
teeth, 2 of them are molars, and I know how he reacts to that.

Thanks!

-Lora

Lora R wrote:
My son is 9.5 months old.
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time.

Maybe he's ready to drop one of his naps? Caterpillar dropped down to one
nap at 11 months, but I think if I'd realized she didn't need the second one
earlier, it would have helped some.

Phoebe
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt

Lora R ) writes:
I have another issue and I'd like to gather some opinions. My son is
9.5 months old. Our sleep situation has always been tolerable, but I
think it's making a transition to the intolerable side.

You might try nursing him in a lying-down position.
Doing this can be almost as restful for the mother as
sleeping. If he's in a sidecar, I don't see why you
have to sit up.

You might try having the bedtime routine involve
falling asleep without nursing. (You could nurse
a short time before bedtime.) Perhaps having your
husband put him to sleep. I think nursing to sleep
sets up an expectation in the baby that the breast
should be available all night.

You could nurse at all the wakings. I'm not sure
what the advantage is of not doing so.

Why not have your husband handle the non-nursing
wakings? You could even sleep in another
room through this time, so you wouldn't be
disturbed. I don't see any disadvantage.

You could try running a fan or something to give
a bit of steady noise, so that any other noises
(such as you rolling over in bed) won't disturb
the baby as much. It might take baby a few days
to get used to the fan. The noise of the fan
might wake baby more than it helps.
Some people find it helps, though.

Maybe the room is too hot or too cold, causing baby
to wake more often. Or maybe a sound like an
air conditioner turning on is waking baby.
Or maybe baby is feeling insecure -- "Will I be
allowed to nurse or not??" -- and wakes for that
reason. I don't know.
--
Cathy

Phoebe & Allyson wrote:

Lora R wrote:
My son is 9.5 months old.
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time.

Maybe he's ready to drop one of his naps? Caterpillar dropped down to one
nap at 11 months, but I think if I'd realized she didn't need the second one
earlier, it would have helped some.

Phoebe

Wow, I never would have thought of that! He seems sleep deprived, as
he tends to do the yawning cranky thing even just a half hour after
he's woken from a nap or in the morning--but won't go back to sleep.
So dropping a nap wouldn't have occurred to me, but you might be
right. Do you think he'd sleep longer if he had just one nap? I do
feel that he would go to sleep faster. If he'd take one 2-3 hour nap
that would be good, but he's never slept that long in the day.
Perhaps he would if he had just one nap. Do you think it would affect
his nighttime sleep in a positive way?

Thank you,
Lora

"Lora R" wrote in message
...
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time. Tonight it took 1 hour and 40
minutes. We nursed, rocked, sat quietly, switched to daddy doing it,
etc. He just wouldn't give it up.

To me it sounds like you are doing too much to get him to go to sleep,
which may be counterproductive. He may sleep better if allowed to learn
how to fall asleep on his own, rather than being dependent on you for
help. The older he gets, the more he will be able to keep himself
awake. He knows that, as soon as he falls asleep, you stop whatever
pleasant thing you are doing with him, so his incentive is to stay awake
as long as possible under your current plan. If you give him no
motivation for staying awake he should go to sleep faster. Ideally he
should still be awake when you put him down.

Although he is in bed about 12 total hours at night, he wakes up a
lot. Every night varies how many times he will wake. The most usual
pattern is for him to fall asleep at 8, wake up at 10, 12, 4, 6, 6:30,
7:30, 8. I only nurse him 2-3 of those times though. Sometimes he'll
I do only feed him 2 or 3 times a night, the
other wakings I just pick him up for 5-10 minutes and he's back
asleep. If he woke up just twice in a 12 hour stretch, I'd feel
blessed. Do you have any ideas how I can make that happen?

Learning how to fall asleep by himself will help him know how to
resettle himself better during the night too. It is normal to rouse
slightly several times per night. If his last waking memory is of being
held and rocked, but then he wakes up in his crib, the change in
circumstances confuses him and makes him wake more fully to figure it
out. He has trouble falling back to sleep then until the conditions
under which he originally fell asleep are restored.

Thank you very much, and please let me know if I need to include more
information. Oh, also I know it's not teething. He already has 10
teeth, 2 of them are molars, and I know how he reacts to that.

I would be surprised, though, since he has two molars, if the other two
aren't on their way. They can take a long time and cause trouble
intermittently, very different from how the other teeth come in IME with
my older child.

Good luck. Now, my 10 month old does typically nurse at about 1:00 am
and 4:00 am, and sleeps overall from about 7 pm to 6:30 am, but if he's
sick or teething he's up as much as five times a night. So, I can't say
my advice would necessarily work! ;-) It makes a lot of sense to me in
theory at least though.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 10 months

Catherine Woodgold wrote:

Lora R ) writes:
I have another issue and I'd like to gather some opinions. My son is
9.5 months old. Our sleep situation has always been tolerable, but I
think it's making a transition to the intolerable side.

You might try nursing him in a lying-down position.
Doing this can be almost as restful for the mother as
sleeping. If he's in a sidecar, I don't see why you
have to sit up.

I have been doing a lot of side-lying nursing lately, but the reason I
try to avoid it is because we both fall asleep and I move around and
wake him up shortly after. If I can stay awake and move him to the
sidecar once he's asleep, that works, but I usually fall asleep and
then wake him up a half hour later.



You might try having the bedtime routine involve
falling asleep without nursing. (You could nurse
a short time before bedtime.) Perhaps having your
husband put him to sleep. I think nursing to sleep
sets up an expectation in the baby that the breast
should be available all night.

Cheryl mentioned this also, and I think you both have a good point.
I'm just not sure how to do it! I could nurse him until he's drowsy
and lay him down, but when I've tried this before he has just started
moving around and crawling and gets himself more awake. Do you think
he'd get used to it in time?


You could nurse at all the wakings. I'm not sure
what the advantage is of not doing so.

Originally when I started nursing him at fewer night wakings, I did it
because I wanted him to wake less, and thought that if I only fed him
at certain times he would only wake up at certain times. It didn't
work. I continued with it though, because if he nurses every time he
wakes his diaper (cloth) get absolutely soaked by morning and wakes
him up way too early.


Why not have your husband handle the non-nursing
wakings? You could even sleep in another
room through this time, so you wouldn't be
disturbed. I don't see any disadvantage.

I'll talk to him and see if this will work. Currently we trade nights
so that we each handle some of the wakings. I suppose that could be
quite confusing for my son too.


You could try running a fan or something to give
a bit of steady noise, so that any other noises
(such as you rolling over in bed) won't disturb
the baby as much. It might take baby a few days
to get used to the fan. The noise of the fan
might wake baby more than it helps.
Some people find it helps, though.

Maybe the room is too hot or too cold, causing baby
to wake more often. Or maybe a sound like an
air conditioner turning on is waking baby.
Or maybe baby is feeling insecure -- "Will I be
allowed to nurse or not??" -- and wakes for that
reason. I don't know.
--
Cathy


Thanks Cathy! I appreciate the input. I'll try putting him down
drowsy but awake and see what happens. I really have no clue about
that--after you put a baby down awake, how long should it take before
they fall asleep? I have visions of him playing happily or whining
unhappily for a looooooooooong time.
-Lora

"Cheryl S." wrote:

"Lora R" wrote in message
...
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time. Tonight it took 1 hour and 40
minutes. We nursed, rocked, sat quietly, switched to daddy doing it,
etc. He just wouldn't give it up.

To me it sounds like you are doing too much to get him to go to sleep,
which may be counterproductive. He may sleep better if allowed to learn
how to fall asleep on his own, rather than being dependent on you for
help. The older he gets, the more he will be able to keep himself
awake. He knows that, as soon as he falls asleep, you stop whatever
pleasant thing you are doing with him, so his incentive is to stay awake
as long as possible under your current plan. If you give him no
motivation for staying awake he should go to sleep faster. Ideally he
should still be awake when you put him down.

That makes total sense, but it seems so hard to enact! He's probably
gotten so used to me soothing him to sleep that I can't imagine him
just falling asleep. However, I do put him to sleep in a large
variety of ways, so maybe he would just accept it as one more way. Do
you have any ideas about how I would go about it? Every time I try to
put him down awake now, he just grins, kicks his legs, and gets ready
to play. At which point I snatch him up and rock him before he gets
very alert.


Learning how to fall asleep by himself will help him know how to
resettle himself better during the night too. It is normal to rouse
slightly several times per night. If his last waking memory is of being
held and rocked, but then he wakes up in his crib, the change in
circumstances confuses him and makes him wake more fully to figure it
out. He has trouble falling back to sleep then until the conditions
under which he originally fell asleep are restored.

That too, is quite sensible. I do know that he does fall back asleep
on his own a lot of the time, because I see him do it and hear him do
it over the monitor before I'm in bed. But I guess sometimes he just
doesn't want to do it without a cuddle. I have some ideas to try now,
I'll have to do them one at a time so as not to overwhelm him.


I would be surprised, though, since he has two molars, if the other two
aren't on their way. They can take a long time and cause trouble
intermittently, very different from how the other teeth come in IME with
my older child.

Good point, thanks.


Good luck. Now, my 10 month old does typically nurse at about 1:00 am
and 4:00 am, and sleeps overall from about 7 pm to 6:30 am, but if he's
sick or teething he's up as much as five times a night. So, I can't say
my advice would necessarily work! ;-) It makes a lot of sense to me in
theory at least though.

Heh, I understand that! Thank you very much Cheryl.

-Lora

When ds is waking up in the night, is he "fussing" crying, or really crying
out?

I ask this because I found by waiting a few minutes and deciphering the cry,
many times the baby makes some awake noises, but really doesn't need me, or
hungry. By the time I got to my #3, I have her cries down pat. Sometimes
she does the "wah" I'm in an uncomfortable position, or I need my
thumb....and she is fine. Whereas if she was my first born I would have ran
in there post haste, or 2nd one where I would wait all of 10 seconds and
fear of waking #1.

How often is he nursing during the day? I'm thinking it could be a
combination of: being overtired (baby), reacting too quickly to noises, and
being honestly hungry. Or in my infinite wisdom, none of the above!

"Lora R" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have another issue and I'd like to gather some opinions. My son is
9.5 months old. Our sleep situation has always been tolerable, but I
think it's making a transition to the intolerable side.

There are two specific sleep problems I'm having--getting him to
sleep, and number of night wakings.

First, about getting him to sleep. For the first 4 months of his life
he fell asleep quickly and well, but wouldn't let me put him down
without him waking. At 4 months we bought _The No Cry Sleep Solution_
and it worked like a charm for nighttime. After a few weeks of doing
as the book suggested (clear and peaceful bedtime routine, early
bedtime, put him down when he's asleep and when he wakes resettle
him--repeat over and over until he stayed down.) he would nurse to
sleep and let me put him down after just 10 to 15 minutes. Perfect!
Well, for about the last 2 months, he just *will not* fall asleep
within a reasonable amount of time. Tonight it took 1 hour and 40
minutes. We nursed, rocked, sat quietly, switched to daddy doing it,
etc. He just wouldn't give it up. This has become typical of bedtime
and naps for 2 months now. Occasionally he'll fall asleep ok, in
20-30 minutes, but nights like tonight are driving me nuts. We do
watch for the first signs of tiredness and try to put him to nap/bed
before he even has a chance to get to the whiney/yawny phase. His
bedtime routine is started at 7:15, and we like to have him asleep by
8. He will wake up for the day at 7:30 or 8. Which leads me to the
next problem.

Although he is in bed about 12 total hours at night, he wakes up a
lot. Every night varies how many times he will wake. The most usual
pattern is for him to fall asleep at 8, wake up at 10, 12, 4, 6, 6:30,
7:30, 8. I only nurse him 2-3 of those times though. Sometimes he'll
sleep an eight hour stretch from 8 p.m. until 4 a.m., sometimes he's
up every two hours all night long, sometimes he'll sleep 2 five hour
stretches and be up every half hour until 8 a.m. It has just never
been predictable. I've thought about cutting out all nursing between
say, midnight and 5. But, if he sleeps from 8-3, I know he's hungry
at 3, so I feed him. I do only feed him 2 or 3 times a night, the
other wakings I just pick him up for 5-10 minutes and he's back
asleep. If he woke up just twice in a 12 hour stretch, I'd feel
blessed. Do you have any ideas how I can make that happen?

His naps are ok, though it does take a long time to get him to sleep.
He has a morning nap and an afternoon nap, each of which are about 1.5
hours (usually with one time of me going in and resettling him) on a
good day. Some days he'll wake up after sleeping for 30 minutes and
won't be resettled to sleep longer.

Our bed situation is this: his crib is set up as a side-car to our
bed. One side is off and it's right next to my side of the bed. I
sit up to nurse him or resettle him, and put him back in the crib to
sleep. By 5 or 6 in the morning, I usually just keep him right next
to me because he wakes up so often in the mornings. I've thought
about having my husband take over the night wakings that I'm not going
to nurse him, but he does resettle fine for me when I hold him without
nursing.

In my opinion, he exhibits some signs of sleep deprivation. I try so
hard but don't know how to get him more sleep with fewer wakings.

Thank you very much, and please let me know if I need to include more
information. Oh, also I know it's not teething. He already has 10
teeth, 2 of them are molars, and I know how he reacts to that.

Thanks!

-Lora

Lora R wrote:
Do you think he'd sleep longer if he had just one nap?

Caterpillar at the end of her 2 nap schedule slept from 11pm to 8:30 or
9:30am, then took an hour-long nap at noonish and an hour-long nap at
4pm-ish. Her record long nap was between 1.5 and 2 hours. Caterpillar with
one nap sleeps from 9:30pm to 8:30am, and naps for between 1.5 and 3 hours
starting around 1pm or 2pm.

Do you think it would affect
his nighttime sleep in a positive way?

If he only needs one nap, dropping the second nap might improve his
nighttime sleep. If he really needs the second nap, he'll fall asleep
anyhow, so you'll know he still needs it. If we have a bad night (or for
some reason put her to bed later so she doesn't get as much sleep, or if she
doesn't nap well), Caterpillar will take a short second nap in the early
evening if she really needs one.

Phoebe
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Lora R wrote:
Every time I try to
put him down awake now, he just grins, kicks his legs, and gets ready
to play. At which point I snatch him up and rock him before he gets
very alert.

We co-sleep, so our bedtime routine might not work for you. We go into a
silent dark bedroom, lie down and nurse (sometimes she falls asleep,
sometimes she doesn't), then lie there silently in the dark until she falls
asleep.

If she starts to get up and run around the room, and I suspect she may not
be sleepy (because we went to bed based on the clock, not cues, for
instance, or because she had a late mini-nap), I'll take her into the living
room and let her play there for a half hour or so, then try again. I try
not to let her play in the bedroom at night.

If she starts to get up and run around the room, and I know she's sleepy
(and likely an overtired cranky girl), I put her back in bed and hold her
down by putting an arm over her. IME, she'll shriek at the top of her lungs
for a few seconds (a minute or two, tops) while lying there limply. Then
she'll lie there limply and silently for a few minutes, then she'll be
asleep.

If he's willing to play happily in his crib (presumably with the side up, so
he can't escape), I might try just putting him in and walking away. If he
plays by himself for half an hour, then falls asleep, I personally don't see
any harm in that. And if he gets bored or lonesome and cries, you can
always go back in then.

Phoebe

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