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"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toypup
says...


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
This may be partly a question of definition. I don't really like the
idea of saying something is a sacrifice because that implies
obligation, and I resent being obligated. I never liked it when my
mom would imply (although she wouldn't actually say it), "I worked my
fingers to the bone doing xyz, and the least you could do in return is
abc" My POV was that if it was so onerous, that she shouldn't do it
because I'd rather do without xyz than have to be grateful for it.

I agree with that. My mom is the same way. She tells me about how she
stayed up with me and had to feed me every x hours, like I need to repay
that burden. I stayed up with my kids, I was on bedrest for both of them,
but I would never dream of making them repay that or making them feel
guilty
about it. It's what we do when we're parents. What did she expect? If
she
didn't want to do be up taking care of us, she shouldn't have had us.



These are debts to be paid forward, to one's own children. Life moves
forward;
it should not fold back on itself.

Right, and it's not like we don't feel grateful, but parents need to be nice
when the kids are grown and no longer cute. It's not like they can be good
to us when we are newborns, then make us into basket cases every time they
see us when we are out of the house and then expect us to worship them for
sacrifices they made thirty years ago.

Rosalie B. wrote:

Well that is my point. You don't think that saying you sacrificed has
a negative slant, and to me, saying that someone sacrificed is
definitely negative. Otherwise AFAI am concerned it isn't a
sacrifice. Originally IIRC a sacrifice was when you killed some
animal, and that would be pretty negative for the animal Jesus
sacrificed himself for our sins - that creates an obligation for us.
You see your sacrifice as creating an obligation for your children to
behave well.

No, actually I do not, and find it interesting that you take
a simple comment, made to underline a point and go off on
this amazing tangent. I see my 'sacrifice' (the definition
being used in this context would be to give up something
valuable in exchange for a higher good -- most assuredly not
negative in any way), as being something my children should
recognize and respect.

If it isn't a problem for a person to do, then it isn't really a
sacrifice IMHO. Like, I could give up smoking for Lent, but it
wouldn't be any kind of a problem for me because I don't smoke. Now
if I gave up the internet for Lent - THAT would be a sacrifice.

Please see above. For some strange reason the mention, half
in jest, that children should take note of what has been
done for them, and perhaps be aware that it happened through
hard work and at the expense of other things, thus acting
accordingly, has been misconstrued and misrepresented as if
I want tit for tat, expect repayment, am accruing a debt
that must be repaid, am hoping for worship, and on and on.
Dear me...
--
Ruth B

"Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote in message
news:Y6a3h.1942$qJ6.859@trndny07...
Please see above. For some strange reason the mention, half in jest, that
children should take note of what has been done for them, and perhaps be
aware that it happened through hard work and at the expense of other
things, thus acting accordingly, has been misconstrued and misrepresented
as if I want tit for tat, expect repayment, am accruing a debt that must
be repaid, am hoping for worship, and on and on. Dear me...

I think if it were truly didn't need to be repaid, then it would never be
mentioned, because it is something one did because one wanted to. Some
mothers really do want to be worshipped and repaid, so maybe your response
comes because some of us have those moms and are reacting to that.

A true sacrifice would be like my dad, who never said a bad word about my
mom, though she tried to turn us all against him. When I finally had my own
children, I realized what he must have gone through and how awful it must
have been and how much restraint it must have taken to try to keep us out of
it -- all out of love. What respect I have for him now. I'm sure my
brothers don't even realize it and may never will, though they have a good
relationship with him.

toypup wrote:

"Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote:

Please see above. For some strange reason the mention, half in jest, that
children should take note of what has been done for them, and perhaps be
aware that it happened through hard work and at the expense of other
things, thus acting accordingly, has been misconstrued and misrepresented
as if I want tit for tat, expect repayment, am accruing a debt that must
be repaid, am hoping for worship, and on and on. Dear me...

I think if it were truly didn't need to be repaid, then it would never be
mentioned, because it is something one did because one wanted to. Some
mothers really do want to be worshipped and repaid, so maybe your response
comes because some of us have those moms and are reacting to that.

That has become quite clear It might be helpful to note
that a comment made during a discussion with peers on a
newsgroup does not translate to nattering at ones children
about worship and repayment. My girls were not toddlers
when we jointly made the decision to pursue horses in a
serious manner, and were involved in discussions about how
it would affect the household, etc. I absolutely expected a
level of responsibility and behavior during this time that
transcended what they were accustomed to, as the entire
affair hinged on cooperation as a group.

I do not heckle my children with vignettes of history
designed to make them feel guilt, worship or debt, however I
do expect them to recognize and respect what has been done
for them, by *whomever* *whenever*, and act accordingly,
without benefit of reminder, whereupon it becomes churlish.
*That* is a conversation had more than once, without a
single toot of my personal horn...

A true sacrifice would be like my dad, who never said a bad word about my
mom, though she tried to turn us all against him. When I finally had my own
children, I realized what he must have gone through and how awful it must
have been and how much restraint it must have taken to try to keep us out of
it -- all out of love. What respect I have for him now. I'm sure my
brothers don't even realize it and may never will, though they have a good
relationship with him.

I have been in the same situation, during my own divorce. I
steadfastly kept, and continue to keep, my lips zipped, in
the face of similar behavior. It isn't easy but it is
proper, and I imagine there may have been times that my halo
slipped just a wee bit.
--
Ruth

toypup wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
This may be partly a question of definition. I don't really like the
idea of saying something is a sacrifice because that implies
obligation, and I resent being obligated. I never liked it when my
mom would imply (although she wouldn't actually say it), "I worked my
fingers to the bone doing xyz, and the least you could do in return is
abc" My POV was that if it was so onerous, that she shouldn't do it
because I'd rather do without xyz than have to be grateful for it.

I agree with that. My mom is the same way. She tells me about how she
stayed up with me and had to feed me every x hours, like I need to repay
that burden. I stayed up with my kids, I was on bedrest for both of them,
but I would never dream of making them repay that or making them feel guilty
about it. It's what we do when we're parents. What did she expect? If she
didn't want to do be up taking care of us, she shouldn't have had us.

I think there are two sides to the issue. I agree that
it's not appropriate to harangue ones' kids and guilt trip them
over the obligations incurred by parenting. After all, we're
the ones who chose to parent ;-)
On the other hand, I think there certainly is a place
in the job of parenting for teaching our children to be respectful
and thoughtful of others, and that's just as important at home
as it is outside the home.
So, "You owe me good behavior because I didn't get a
good night's sleep for a year when you were an infant," is out,
but, "Excuse me, but you can't expect me to rearrange my plans
to run you to six different activities this evening if you're
going to be ornery and disrespectful all day," is a perfectly
fine consequence to uncivilized behavior.
Some people are very sensitive and perceive the
latter as a guilt trip as well as the former, but I think
there's a pretty significant difference.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..

On the other hand, I think there certainly is a place
in the job of parenting for teaching our children to be respectful
and thoughtful of others, and that's just as important at home
as it is outside the home.
So, "You owe me good behavior because I didn't get a
good night's sleep for a year when you were an infant," is out,
but, "Excuse me, but you can't expect me to rearrange my plans
to run you to six different activities this evening if you're
going to be ornery and disrespectful all day," is a perfectly
fine consequence to uncivilized behavior.

I've been trying to think of a good way to articulate this for the
past day or do, so I appreciate you doing it for me. Some of the
posts up to this point seem to be taking the stance that the parents
owe everything to the kids, and the kids owe nothing to the parents.
My child owes me the same respect and consideration I give to her.
And sometimes that takes some reminding.

Bizby

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
I think there are two sides to the issue. I agree that
it's not appropriate to harangue ones' kids and guilt trip them
over the obligations incurred by parenting. After all, we're
the ones who chose to parent ;-)
On the other hand, I think there certainly is a place
in the job of parenting for teaching our children to be respectful
and thoughtful of others, and that's just as important at home
as it is outside the home.
So, "You owe me good behavior because I didn't get a
good night's sleep for a year when you were an infant," is out,

It was more like she wants worship and adoration and a house and money. My
brother bought her a car and put her in his will and was planning to give
her a house. My other brother promised her a house one day. I do think
it's a cultural thing, because lots of friends have done that for their
parents (bought them a house). They want to tell their friends their
children loved them so much they gave them a house. So, she wants me to
demonstrate my love in some huge monetary way. My friend said her mom told
her that was what my mom wanted and I neeed to give her money. My friend's
mom doesn't know my mom. They are of the same culture, so it's very
cultural.

She thinks it's terrible that children move away from their parents, after
all they've done for them. Of course, I must be awful, because I moved
away, and how would she explain that to her friends. Her child doesn't love
her enough, she moved away. I visited only once a week. That wasn't
enough. I said I didn't have enough time to visit more. She said I could
visit more if I really wanted. Basically, I need to wrap my life around
hers to show my gratitude.

but, "Excuse me, but you can't expect me to rearrange my plans
to run you to six different activities this evening if you're
going to be ornery and disrespectful all day," is a perfectly
fine consequence to uncivilized behavior.

Well, that isn't a guilt trip. It's perfectly reasonable.

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

I've been trying to think of a good way to articulate this for the past
day or do, so I appreciate you doing it for me. Some of the posts up to
this point seem to be taking the stance that the parents owe everything to
the kids, and the kids owe nothing to the parents. My child owes me the
same respect and consideration I give to her. And sometimes that takes
some reminding.

If you show your child respect and consideration, you deserve the same in
return. If you turn your children into basket cases after every visit, you
cannot rely on the repect and consideration you gave thirty years ago to
carry you through.

"bizby40" wrote:


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

On the other hand, I think there certainly is a place
in the job of parenting for teaching our children to be respectful
and thoughtful of others, and that's just as important at home
as it is outside the home.
So, "You owe me good behavior because I didn't get a
good night's sleep for a year when you were an infant," is out,

Yes respect is necessary, and guilt trips are bad. But, my mom was a
master of the guilt trip without actually SAYING that I owed her. The
one I remember most recently was more "How could you speak to your
mother like that?" when I disagreed with her.

but, "Excuse me, but you can't expect me to rearrange my plans
to run you to six different activities this evening if you're
going to be ornery and disrespectful all day," is a perfectly
fine consequence to uncivilized behavior.

I know that you are trying to articulate an appropriate consequence
for disrespect, but I'm not sure that this is a good one. For one
thing, I think the consequence should be more immediate - that the
child shouldn't be allowed to be disrespectful all day before the
consequence is announced (although that probably wasn't what you
meant).

I also cannot see myself rearranging my plans for a last minute thing
unless it was some kind of real emergency that wasn't schedulable,
whether the child was ornery or not.

I've been trying to think of a good way to articulate this for the
past day or do, so I appreciate you doing it for me. Some of the
posts up to this point seem to be taking the stance that the parents
owe everything to the kids, and the kids owe nothing to the parents.
My child owes me the same respect and consideration I give to her.
And sometimes that takes some reminding.

I'm probably not too good at doing the reminding because I'm sensitive
to the subject on account of my mom. But I don't think that my kids
are disrespectful of me now that they are adults.

Rosalie B. wrote:
"bizby40" wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..

but, "Excuse me, but you can't expect me to rearrange my plans
to run you to six different activities this evening if you're
going to be ornery and disrespectful all day," is a perfectly
fine consequence to uncivilized behavior.
I know that you are trying to articulate an appropriate consequence
for disrespect, but I'm not sure that this is a good one. For one
thing, I think the consequence should be more immediate - that the
child shouldn't be allowed to be disrespectful all day before the
consequence is announced (although that probably wasn't what you
meant).

No, I didn't say anything about the timing of
the comment. It's not really necessary, as it's a standing
rule in my house. You want others to do for you? Well, then you
can't be beastly to them and still expect them to come through
for you. Getting hauled to rehearsals and birthday parties and
friends' homes and whatnot are privileges. It's my job as
a parent--the job I chose--to get up at night with babies
and deal with all the ins and outs of parenting. It is also
my job to bring up civilized children who know how to get
along in the world, and the rest of the world is not going
to put up with selfish prima donnas.

I also cannot see myself rearranging my plans for a last minute thing
unless it was some kind of real emergency that wasn't schedulable,
whether the child was ornery or not.

I've already rearranged my schedule to accommodate
their stuff, but I will un-arrange it if they can't be
civilized. Plus, they do have plenty of last minute
stuff, especially on weekends. They have to finish their
work before they can go off and do stuff, so often we
can't really schedule anything until we know that they're
going to have time. Finding a last minute fun activity
with friends for an evening when the homework turned out
to be light is not an uncommon occurrence.

You may have a situation where too much was asked
of you as a child, with a bunch of guilt-tripping thrown
in for good measure. There are, however, many other kids
to whom much is given and relatively little expected who
need some significant reminding of their obligations, and
who can stand to be reminded without being dealt a crushing
blow of guilt. I assume in your case, at least now as an
adult, you are quite capable of seeing the difference
between what you actually owe your mother and what are
unrealistic expectations on her part and unfair guilt
trips. There's a world of difference between that
and legitimate, appropriate expectations on kids and
their behavior.

Best wishes,
Ericka