Have you tried an electric toothbrush?

Troll.

(CBI) wrote

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From: (CBI)
Newsgroups: misc.kids.health
Subject: Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
Date: 7 May 2004 13:24:08 -0700
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John Doe wrote in message .. .
"CBI" wrote
John Doe wrote:
"CBI" wrote

You post your personal opinion as fact.

You expect me to subscribe to Consumer Reports in order to
substantiate your recollection of their opinion.
Can you quote something from the article?

Why - then you will just accuse me of not typing it accurately and
taking things out of context

Or being plain wrong.

I have made a specific claim - that a specific source came to a
specific conclusion and told you exactly where you may confirm that
information if you so desire. If you wish to claim that I or they are
wrong then the onus is on you to review the article amd express
specific concerns.

I would point out that I have not cited an obscure reference that
would cause you great trouble or expense to make available. If you
prize convenience then the article is available on the web for a fee.
If you are unwilling to pay for it then it is available at just about
every public library for free. If you are both to cheap and too lazy
then that is not my fault or concern.


...Go tot he library and look it up. If you feel that I have
misrepresented something int he article post your specific concerns
here and I will address them.

A wild goose chasing your recollection of Consumer Reports' summary
opinion. That article is titled "Expert consumer advice and
recommendations on electric toothbrushes". That isn't about the
difference between electric and manual toothbrushes.

This is a rather incredible claim comming from someone who admits to
not having read the article.



http://www.consumersearch.com/www/fa...s/reviews.html

Apparently, you attributed Clinical Research Associates 1998 results to
Consumer Reports December 2003 results about electric toothbrushes.

Not at all. Read the article and see - or just admit you don't know.


You have been misspelling "Consumer Reports" throughout this thread.

Me thinks you are careless.

I guess I spend most of time reading the inside rather than the cover
or trying to interpret articles from their titles. I can think of a
word for that type of behavior that sounds an awful lot like
"careless".


You then replied by insulting me,

For malpractice.

Now I know you are full of BS.

... I am [a doctor].

Says who? Where?

Says me. Here.


In fact, electric toothbrushes are much better than manual toothbrushes.
According to everybody who has used one.

If that were true then all the research would be unanymous and there
would be no source for disagreement.

--
CBI, MD

(CBI) wrote

That is just great. In this whole threat you have provided exactly one
reference in one post.

I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a quack. Every
post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly
much better than manual toothbrushes at removing plaque.






--
CBI, MD

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From: (CBI)
Newsgroups: misc.kids.health
Subject: Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
Date: 7 May 2004 13:30:43 -0700
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John Doe wrote:
(CBI) wrote

That is just great. In this whole threat you have
provided exactly
one reference in one post.

I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a
quack. Every
post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states
they are
clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing
plaque.

So you say.

John Doe wrote:
(CBI) wrote

That is just great. In this whole threat you have
provided exactly
one reference in one post.

I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a
quack. Every
post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states
they are
clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing
plaque.

If you are going to have these types of discussions you need
to learn to keep in mind what claims have and have not been
made. I have stated that a specific article in the December
2003 Consumer Reports contradicts your anecdotal experience.
I have pointed out that your argument has so far completely
depended on anecdote and that you have been strangely
reluctant to bring data into the discussion (and still
haven't). I have pointed out that your insistance on
discounting the referenced article is bizarre given your own
admission of not having read it. All of these claims are
manifestly true and no Pubmed search could ever cast doubts
on any of them. I have not issued a statement claiming;
based on personal experience, anecdote, or published
reports; whether one is clearly superior to the other (at
least not yet). In fact, I pointed out that in the report I
cited there is some doubt where children are concerned and
that the report demonstrated equivalence for adults, not
superiority.

As for your claim that "every post-2000 clinical study on
electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better":
It is obviously wrong on the face of it since I have already
referenced one that didn't. OK - I know what you will say -
"I meant pubmed listed articles." Well, apparently you
missed a few because I only had to take one try at typing in
search terms to find several that contradict you. Of course,
we will never know what you did since after taking the time
and trouble to do a search you apparently didn't think it
was important to tell us what you found (to be charitable
about it).

Here is what I found:

J Clin Periodontol. 2004 Feb;31(2):95-8.
"CONCLUSIONS: This study has suggested that the powered
brush may become more effective at reducing dental stain,
the longer the brush is used under normal home conditions."
- OK this one suggest there "may" be an advantage. I
wouldn't say that "may" is the same as "clearly". It gets
better if you read on.

Caries Res. 2004 Mar-Apr;38(2):91-4.
"Secondly, both methods resulted in about 50% less plaque on
occlusal surfaces compared to baseline (29.2%) with a
slightly but significantly smaller mean value for the
electric toothbrush (14.7%, manual cross-brushing technique
16.7%; p = 0.025). "
- "Slightly but statistically significant". Again, not the
"clear" superiority you claim..

Pesqui Odontol Bras. 2001 Oct-Dec;15(4):296-301.
"According to the statistical analysis of the results, there
were no significant differences concerning plaque removal
when the toothbrushes were utilized by children with mixed
dentition. "
- Well gee - that's hardly "clearly much better".

Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop. 2001 Oct;120(4):353-60.
"The data were analyzed with the Friedman test, which showed
no significant differences among the 4 brushes for any of
the parameters measured. "
- The study included 2 electric and 2 manual brushes.

J Clin Dent. 2001;12(1):17-20.
"No significant statistical difference in plaque score or
bleeding score was found between the two groups at baseline.
Plaque scores did not statistically significantly decrease
over time in either group, and there was no significant
difference in plaque removal between groups during the
study. "
- This compared one electric with one manual brush.

Eur J Med Res. 2001 Jan 29;6(1):39-45.
"CONCLUSIONS: With regard to caries and gingivitis
prevalence modern electric toothbrushes for children can be
considered equally efficient like conventional manual
toothbrushes for children with children of normal caries
risk."

J Clin Periodontol. 2001 Jan;28(1):65-72
"CONCLUSIONS: The results of the present study have shown
that in a group of dental students trained in manual
brushing technique, where efficacy was similar with the 3
toothbrushes tested, there is no evidence of greater
gingival abrasion with either Braun Oral-B Plak Control
Ultra or 3D when compared with a manual brush."

Acta Odontol Scand. 2000 Aug;58(4):166-70.
"In conclusion. no clinically relevant differences in plaque
reducing and gingivitis controlling ability were observed."
- This compared one manual to two electric toothbrushes.


To be fair, I did find a few studies that suggested that
electric toothbushes are better, J Clin Periodontol. 2001
Apr;28(4):325-30, as an example. However, a two things
became obvious when I did the search. One is that the
literature is mixed with some studies on both sides of the
debate but with the over-all body of literature strongly
suggesting equivalence. The second is that "John Doe" lied
when he described claimed to have done a search (to no
longer be charitable about it) as there is no way he could
have done one and then truthfully made the claim he did.
Also, if he did do a search I am sure he would have listed
and/or quoted the supporting studies instead of making the
easily proved to be false statement that he did.

Lastly, a few studies did suggest that even when outcomes
were clinically equivalent that some people just liked the
electric toothbrushes better. Since the best predictor of
efficacy for a toothbrush is how long and how consistantly
it is used this may represent a strong argument to spend the
extra money if you prefer one over the other.

Except for the part where John quotes this whole post just
to call me a troll, I think that about wraps up the issue.

--
CBI, MD

Chuckle.

Anemic.

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
Troll.

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 7, 2004" M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
wrote

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From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 7, 2004" M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t

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"John Do(p)e" wrote in message
...
"CBI" wrote
John Doe wrote:
"CBI" wrote

You post your personal opinion as fact.

You expect me to subscribe to Consumer Reports in order to
substantiate your recollection of their opinion.
Can you quote something from the article?

Why - then you will just accuse me of not typing it accurately and
taking things out of context

Or being plain wrong.

An empty claim which you will not bother to prove.

...Go tot he library and look it up. If you feel that I have
misrepresented something int he article post your specific concerns
here and I will address them.

A wild goose chasing your recollection of Consumer Reports' summary
opinion. That article is titled "Expert consumer advice and
recommendations on electric toothbrushes". That isn't about the
difference between electric and manual toothbrushes.


http://www.consumersearch.com/www/fa...s/reviews.html

Apparently, you attributed Clinical Research Associates 1998 results to
Consumer Reports December 2003 results about electric toothbrushes.

You have been misspelling "Consumer Reports" throughout this thread.

Wow! What an excellent example of "I think this way, so you must, too"
reasoning.

Me thinks you are careless.

Nah. You don't. think, that is.

You then replied by insulting me,

For malpractice.

Nope, Dope, not even close.

... I am [a doctor].

Says who? Where?

CBI being a MD is a well known factoid in this group.

Why not promote good dental health for kids?

BTW - if you would bother to read my replies you would see that I
(quoting Consumers Report)

Quote? In this thread?

did allow that electric toothbrushes may have some benefit
for some kids.

I appreciate that crumb. It is better than ego boosting topical garbage
and trolling.

You are being self-referential again.

In fact, electric toothbrushes are much better than manual
toothbrushes.
According to everybody who has used one.

"CBI" wrote in message link.net...
John Doe wrote:
(CBI) wrote

That is just great. In this whole threat you have
provided exactly
one reference in one post.

I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a
quack. Every
post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states
they are
clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing
plaque.

snip
As for your claim that "every post-2000 clinical study on
electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better":
snip

Here is what I found: 8 examples that show John Doe is full of stuff deleted

Nice tactics - first post an incredible boast. Then when someone shows
you to be wrong just ignore that post, start a new thread repeating
the same crap, and cross post to a group that you hope will be
sympathetic to your cause.

Look, you like to use an electric toothbrush. Good for you - you are
not alone. Use it in good health. Just stop making claims that are
obviously untrue.

--
CBI, MD