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#61
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"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
... "Dusty" wrote in message ... Would someone else (please!!) care to make an attempt to enlighten LLL of the information that the rest of us seem to be able to grasp, but keeps eluding him/her like Roadrunner does Wile E. Coyote. I've lost all patience with him/her and can no longer stand to keep repeating what so many of us out here lived through and are still experiencing as NCPs over and over again to him/her. Thank you. What is so difficult for you to understand? Those of us who also have to work and raise the children and have to pay dollars for their care and upkeep - some of us find it straining the boundaries of credibility for anyone to claim that they have not so much as a single dollar to contribute to the support of their child(ren) - if you have dollars to pay rent, utilities, food, gasoline, car, clothing, smokes, beer and all the rest, why can you not contribute so much as a dollar towards your kidsfor years and years and years? You have yet to answer this simple question. How do you pay NOTHING for years on end? I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something... An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother claiming she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used when "justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child support. The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have no choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because they hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them back after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on them directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to actual costs - even for a child living in poverty! Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ |
#62
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Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not.
Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland. Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck. As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless. Sometimes the damage is permanent. Just today I had to sit my butt down in the dentist's chair yet once again to fix up yet more of my extensive dental work. Most of the damge to my teeth did NOT occur after I was on my own. I have had one small cavity since then. My mother simply could NOT afford dental care and thus the damage to the teeth was much worse than if I had regular dental care. Just to be clear, my father was NOT poor, was not unemployed, though he tried that once or twice to reduce his CS; that judge was not buying either. Just in case you think this was somehow my mother's fault (many things are, but not this one), he did the same to the second family he formed but even worse, as my step-mother actually made sure that some of the money was paid to my mother. He drove a successful business into the ground likely so he would not have to compensate her for her lawful share. He NEVER paid any support to those children unless threatened with jail. Amazingly he would show up to court with a high priced attorney and when he lost his bid to escape the consequences, he paid the arrears in 48 hours. I DO disagree with DUSTY. There is not an able-bodied NCP who can not work even a day and send their kids some money. If OSE uses any payment to track you down, pay with a money order with either no return address or used a Postal mail box service. HELP YOUR CHILDREN. NONE of these aggravated NCPs, who whine and whine and whine about how impoverished they are. has resonded to the question of why pay NOTHING. or How it is possible for an abled bodied person to work for not a single day for YEARS? They just complain that it is unfair; they seem to think this justifies not working and not paying their child anything. None responded to my suggestions for reform acknowdging that the system is unfair. It seems that some NCPs thiank that the unfairness of the system is an excuse for paying NOTHING. None have told tails of how they are working their butts off and still can not meet their obligation. It does happen. So I ahve to acknowledge that the discussion seems futile. In most cases in life, but not all, there is more than one factor cause a difficulty. But if a person thinks that they need do nothing, the problem is unlikely to be solved. If you don;t care about your kids, have some enlightened self interest. This debt WILL follow you. Everything you can do to reduce it can only help you. |
#63
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"Tracy" wrote in message
... [snip] I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something... An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother claiming she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used when "justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child support. The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have no choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because they hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them back after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on them directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to actual costs - even for a child living in poverty! Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ I hear ya Tracy. And no offence taken. In fact, I agree, for the most part, in what you said. I also agreed with Trip-L that NCPs should send what they can. The part I take exception to (Trip-L) is that the argument does not allow for (as a great many of state C$ guidelines do not allow for) the NCPs continued cost of living, i.e., the idea of sending anything and everything you have to CSE without allowing yourself a certain level of survivability is just pure nuts. For example.. The MA C$ guidelines allow the CP to write off $20k (until recently it was $15k) for keeping the bare essentials - food, clothing, transportation and a place to live. Yet, these same guidelines do -NOT- allow the NCP to do the same. Nor do, in my experience, judges allow for things like a poor economy, lack of employment in one's field, loss of a job, the CP earning vastly more then the NCP, etc. to bear, in any fashion, in the determination of C$ awards - much less allow for a reduction for C$ because of the aforementioned or other circumstances beyond one's control. You can all thank the Bradley Amendment for tying the hands of judges at the Federal level for not allowing reductions in C$. Also, the routinely invoked imputed income ploy, used by judges to jack up C$ awards for the sake of looking good for their cronies, is biased and illegal. The very idea of imputed income, income not based on any factual evidence that the NCP could ever even find such a job make so much money, is repugnant. When a judge imputes an NCPs income, that judge is rolling the dice for the NCP and is safe in the knowledge that they are doomed to failure. It's a setup for disaster, an excuse just waiting to be used to impose even harsher penalties upon the NCP the moment they fail to produce the courts ordered payments. That's not to say that it'll happen right that moment. No, it can take a few months, years perhaps, but the courts know that eventually something will cause the NCP to hit a bump in the employment road and then they've got 'em right where they want them. And further "failure to comply" can, and will result in jail for failure to come up with this imputed money. It's commonly called extortion. But the courts do it all the time and get away with it with impunity. And all this is in our children's best interest?????? |
#64
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"LLL" wrote in message oups.com... Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not. Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland. Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck. As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless. Not all children experienced what you experienced. I tend to believe that most people will step in and take care of their own children, or they have families who will help. You should also look at it this way - just because a CP receives child support does not mean the child will be fed. Also, just because a child is raised in an intact household does not mean the child will be fed. There are no absolutes, and there will always be the exceptions. My real concern in your personal experiences is this - what did your mother do to put food on the table or take you to the dentist? I grew up without a father in the home. My mother worked multiple jobs at times to put food on the table and afford the basic care for her daughters. At times she received help from family member in terms of clothing, but she did not receive child support. Once she had to apply for food stamps and we were on it for a very short period of time (about 2-3 months). I'm not putting aside the fact that your father should have stepped up and provided for his children, but speaking from experience of a mother who was single for 19.5 years before remarrying - my children came first and they did not go hungry nor were they not cared for in terms of health care. Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ |
#65
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"Dusty" wrote in message
... "Tracy" wrote in message ... [snip] I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something... An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother claiming she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used when "justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child support. The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have no choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because they hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them back after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on them directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to actual costs - even for a child living in poverty! Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ I hear ya Tracy. And no offence taken. In fact, I agree, for the most part, in what you said. I also agreed with Trip-L that NCPs should send what they can. The part I take exception to (Trip-L) is that the argument does not allow for (as a great many of state C$ guidelines do not allow for) the NCPs continued cost of living, i.e., the idea of sending anything and everything you have to CSE without allowing yourself a certain level of survivability is just pure nuts. Thank you - I knew you were not unreasonable. The key factor is that parents should act responsible, be reasonable, and look at things realistically. More times than not one parent will be taking on more of the financial care of their child(ren) than the other parent unless everything was equal. That can be applied to intact families as well as divorced families. And further "failure to comply" can, and will result in jail for failure to come up with this imputed money. It's commonly called extortion. But the courts do it all the time and get away with it with impunity. And all this is in our children's best interest?????? No it is not in the children's best interest to jail a parent when the parent is trying or is completely unable. Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ |
#66
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"Tracy" wrote in message ... "LLL" wrote in message oups.com... Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not. Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland. Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck. As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless. Not all children experienced what you experienced. I tend to believe that most people will step in and take care of their own children, or they have families who will help. You should also look at it this way - just because a CP receives child support does not mean the child will be fed. Also, just because a child is raised in an intact household does not mean the child will be fed. There are no absolutes, and there will always be the exceptions. My real concern in your personal experiences is this - what did your mother do to put food on the table or take you to the dentist? I grew up without a father in the home. My mother worked multiple jobs at times to put food on the table and afford the basic care for her daughters. At times she received help from family member in terms of clothing, but she did not receive child support. Once she had to apply for food stamps and we were on it for a very short period of time (about 2-3 months). I'm not putting aside the fact that your father should have stepped up and provided for his children, but speaking from experience of a mother who was single for 19.5 years before remarrying - my children came first and they did not go hungry nor were they not cared for in terms of health care. Also speaking from experience, some portion of moms, when faced with limited resources, will tend to the children's health and dental care, at the expense of their own. Thanks, Tracy ~~~~ http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/ |
#67
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"Tracy" wrote in message
... [snip] I've often wondered at the idea of running for office, at least at the state level, and attempt to turn things around. But I just don't see that happening because of my current situation. I'd love to get into the state legislature and beat the hell out of these Dudley Do-Rights who clamor for more laws against deadbroke parents. I'd really enjoy it. Because defeating a lie with the truth is a very comforting thing. |
#68
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LLL wrote: I guess my point is that you have paid, even though you are behind. No one has explained how a non-disabled person (not in jail either) can pay zero dollars for years and years and years. I HAVE seen this happen, with not just poor parents but middle and upper class people as well. I think that if they are garnishing your wages at 85% that either violates the statute or the statute should be changed. Contact your legislature; they all have email addresses. I would suggest that you stick to one narrow issue or two. If you go on and on about the system you will harm your credibility. This is part of the problem. The system is so kook-whacked that there is no way to discuss it without "going on and on". It also strains credibility that a non-disabled person would have absolutely no income for years and years and years. Tell that to thousands of unemployed CP welfare mooms like my ex. Five years and counting. She has no incentive to work (though I know karma will bite her in the ass once the CS stops flowing in 12 years). - Ron ^*^ |
#69
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LLL wrote: Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not. Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland. Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck. As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless. Sometimes the damage is permanent. Just today I had to sit my butt down in the dentist's chair yet once again to fix up yet more of my extensive dental work. Most of the damge to my teeth did NOT occur after I was on my own. I have had one small cavity since then. My mother simply could NOT afford dental care and thus the damage to the teeth was much worse than if I had regular dental care. Just to be clear, my father was NOT poor, was not unemployed, though he tried that once or twice to reduce his CS; that judge was not buying either. Just in case you think this was somehow my mother's fault (many things are, but not this one), he did the same to the second family he formed but even worse, as my step-mother actually made sure that some of the money was paid to my mother. He drove a successful business into the ground likely so he would not have to compensate her for her lawful share. He NEVER paid any support to those children unless threatened with jail. Amazingly he would show up to court with a high priced attorney and when he lost his bid to escape the consequences, he paid the arrears in 48 hours. I DO disagree with DUSTY. There is not an able-bodied NCP who can not work even a day and send their kids some money. I think both you and Dusty have good points. Personally, for all the abuse I have suffered at the hands of "the system" (and compared to many others, it hasn't been all that much), I have always managed to send my ex her CS payment in full and on time (or at least on time enough -- within a week, and early far more often than late). Someone who sends NOTHING is setting themself up for trouble -- but I don't think the solution to such people is to set up a 900 pound legal gorilla or war machine to beat the **** out of them for the rest of their lives and keep them down in the mud, either. That's foolish. Who does it help? Does it really help the kids to set their father up to be jailed over and over because of a mountain of debt and interest that he can never get out from under? I don't see how. I *do* see how the State just might benefit financially from keeping someone in its clutches for a long, long time, especially if they can be shorn to produce more money that it costs to shear them. Dusty has a point in that there are "manufactured" deadbeats, where the court uses mathemagics to fabricate an arrearage (this has happened to me). And there are NCPs who are "surprised" ten or twenty years after a birth, and suddenly slapped with a huge arrearage and obligation that makes it literally impossible to keep up with all of their bills (no one plans on having 20%+ of their pre-tax income lopped off for the next ten years). These people are thrown into the same pile as those who just decide not to pay for ten years, and treated to the same beating by the 900-pound gorilla who seems to exist just to keep them down and keep the arrearages mounting. This is awful, and should be an embarrassment to the State, but too many people are willing to look the other way or assume that all the "dead-beats" are fatherscum who kicked their kids to the curb so they could go get laid in Brazil. If OSE uses any payment to track you down, pay with a money order with either no return address or used a Postal mail box service. HELP YOUR CHILDREN. NONE of these aggravated NCPs, who whine and whine and whine about how impoverished they are. has resonded to the question of why pay NOTHING. or How it is possible for an abled bodied person to work for not a single day for YEARS? They just complain that it is unfair; they seem to think this justifies not working and not paying their child anything. None responded to my suggestions for reform acknowdging that the system is unfair. It seems that some NCPs thiank that the unfairness of the system is an excuse for paying NOTHING. None have told tails of how they are working their butts off and still can not meet their obligation. It does happen. Those people probably lack web access. So I ahve to acknowledge that the discussion seems futile. In most cases in life, but not all, there is more than one factor cause a difficulty. But if a person thinks that they need do nothing, the problem is unlikely to be solved. If you don;t care about your kids, have some enlightened self interest. This debt WILL follow you. Everything you can do to reduce it can only help you. I agree to a point. When the court fabricated my arrearage, I paid the fabricated arrearage. I have spent time on and off over the last two years trying to get some concrete proof of where the arrearage came from, and it is a chase after smoke. Someone made it up. It was wrong. I paid just to get out of the awful clutches of the system, but I should not have had to. It doesn't make what happened "OK". - Ron ^*^ |
#70
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"LLL" wrote in I do not believe that an able bodied person has any excuse for paying NOTHING for years and years on end, as some NCPs have done (but not you). Tell me what justifies justifies this? What makes anyone think they can predict the future or assume all Americans have the same opportunity to succeed? The greater majority of employed Dead Broke Dads earn less than $20,000/yr. Here's the excuse, no one is guaranteed a good income despite their best efforts. At minimal expenses of $700/mth for rent, $100 for Utilities, $150 for car fuel, another $50/mth for Auto insurance if their really lucky enough to own an old wreck that works, $300 for food. The true reality is the American standard of living is in a state of decline, costs have sky rocketed while wages have not risen in decades. Many people who earned $10/hr in the 70's are still working for that same basic wage or less today. It's not going to get any better any time soon! |
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