The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)

"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok, I'll try this one more time. The original post wasn't about that.
If the man was complaining that a woman was going to abort and he
*wanted* the child, the of COURSE he should. Otherwise, my other
opinions stand.

These are your words, Tonita--the words that I responded to:

"If a man sires a kid he should pay support for the kid."

My question stands: Why shoud the man pay support? Why should he not have
the privilege of raising his child?




teachrmama wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
If a man sires a kid he should pay support for the kid.

Why should a man "pay support"? Why can a man not raise a child? His
responsibilities can be met by raising the child 50% of the time. I have
been trying to get you to answer this, Tonita. WHY is it a man's
responsibility to *pay money* rather than fulfill his responsibility to
the
child by actually being a parent to that child?

Simple
concept. I have been responding in the context of the original post
about a guy not wanting to pay financial support for a "surprise" baby.
Of course I believe that both parents should be involved in the
rearing of the kid. I also believe that kids should be raised in a
cohesive, two-parent home, that men and women should behave like adults
and keep their hormones in check, that men and women have different
roles in the family, that feminists today are sad, pathetic creatures.
If a woman posted something similar I would have the same message for
her. If you don't want a child, don't engage in behavior that will
create one. Intercourse can lead to pregnancy no matter what kind of
birth control you are using outside of abstinence. No one should be
surprised or horrified if there is a pregnancy after sexual
intercourse. It happens. There is no "trickery" involved.

teachrmama wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City"
moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the
adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the
kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and
women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together
to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and
they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their
bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't
have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.

There is a *big difference* between blaming someone else, and
accepting
equal responsibility. Don't you think that BOTH PARENTS should have
equal
rights and responsibilities in the raising of their children? Or do
you
really believe that the woman should raise the child and the man
should
pay
for it?

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Dusty" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
news:_NZSf.1086$5F1.18@fed1read08...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Dusty" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

[snip]

For all of Gini's babble about how the woman is only fertile at one
point in her cycle, what she overlooks is
that sperm may live in the female reproductive tract for up to 7
days
and fertilization may occur even days after
intercourse.

Which is something you contradict yourself on in several previous
posts
(no, I ain't gonna spoon feed ya either - go
look it up). You yourself have stated that MEN must be the primary
party responsible for all births

Um, no, I haven't. Haven't said anything even remotely along those
lines.
I have said that men need to be taking
responsibility for their own birth control though.

Last I checked, men don't control birth.

When they control their own fertility, they sure do. No conception, no
birth. That's how it works.

Please explain how men control their own fertility? This I gotta hear...

By using whatever birth control methods are available - rhythm method,
condoms, abstinence, only having sex with someone they KNOW is not fertile
(as in sterile) and sterility are currently the available choices. If and
when a male pill becomes available, that will be another option.

Not, that's not it. I want you to tell us how a man is in control of his
fertility, not a list of birth control options. How does one do that
Moonie? How do you control something that you have no control over??

Birth control is one thing, controlling one's own fertility is quite
another.

I think I just did answer that question so I'm not sure in what context
you are asking here. Are you saying in *all* cases of pregnancy?
Statistically men don't ask for custody of the newborn. Your question
can't be answered generally because all cases are different I suppose.
And I guess women generally are the custodians, but at this time, men
aren't fighting enough for their own rights. How many men as opposed
to women really fight for the custody of a newborn? I wouldn't have a
problem with a man gaining custody of his child. I dare to say there
are a lot of women out there who should not be mothers but things
won't change I guess for a long long time, if ever. So, I'll say
this...a child should get monetary support from the non custodial
parent, whoever it may be. How's that?

teachrmama wrote:

These are your words, Tonita--the words that I responded to:

"If a man sires a kid he should pay support for the kid."

My question stands: Why shoud the man pay support? Why should he not have
the privilege of raising his child?

Well, I guess the feminists have suceeded in beating men down. I
always say anything worth having is worth fighting for. Maybe it's
time for men and women to start behaving themselves so none of this
will happen? It's still a blame game. Blame the man, blame the woman,
blame the government. I suppose if I had a child out of wedlock I
could turn to the government for help but I didn't and I won't. My
kids didn't. My friends didn't. It all boils down to behavior and the
attitude of wanting something more for one's life and the lives of
their children. The idea of living a more dignified life. People can
change but they don't have to. It's a societal problem, government
included but I don't think it's totally to blame. There are no values
to stand behind anymore. Nobody has to have values or, dare I say,
morals. It's a free-for-all world and everybody just stands by and
watches and supports. I can't change it but I certainly haven't
contributed to it either.

Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
I respectfully disagree with, well...everything. You make it sound as
if when a man doesn't get sex he'll either walk around with an eternal
erection or he'll end up raping someone.

You apparently misunderstood.

We all know that isn't true.
People can use their intellect far more than they do.

They *can* but as long as we let the government tell us how to think, why
bother?

Self control and
self discipline. As for the government, that's kind of far fetched.

Not at all. Apparently you are unaware that the state governments, the ones
that force the child support guidelines upon the People, rake a tidy profit
from the federal government in the form of block grants as a reward for
collecting child support. Then add to it the interest on millions of dollars
sitting in the government accounts for varying lengths of 1-3 months before
disbursment.

The government, at least in my opinion, horns in when there is a lot of
public pressure. Look at our society today...political correctness and
all of that crap. It is so acceptable for a teenaged girl to get
knocked up, continue school, keep the kid go to junior prom and do it
again the next year. Or worse, quit school and have babies as a
career. The government pays because there isn't a choice anymore.

Sure there's a choice, several in fact, but the basic step is for the
governement to butt out. The government rewards women who operate the system
by giving them the lion's share of the marriage plus custody of the children
and far more money than is needed to support those children and people are
surprised when the numbers of these women increase. Whether the mother has
been married or not, the subject is the same: rewarding bad behavior and
wondering why the bad behavior increases.

It's done so kids won't starve or die.

Hardly. It's done for political correctness; that is, feminists demand women
be treated special and men be punished for being male.
Child support has nothing to do with supporting children. Most fathers would
do whatever is necessary for their children but the government will not
permit it.

It's almost a badge of honor to
be a single mother these days. It's shameful. I think it happens
because there are so many fatherless homes.

To a large degree, absolutely. So it is with may pathological amomalities
such as failing or dropping out of school, drug use, runaway juveniles,
child abuse and neglect, crime and many others.

I don't agree with any of
it but that's the way it is. People get divorced because they can, men
abandon because they can, women think they can have it all but they
can't. That's why marriages end and thank the feminists for the victim
status many women take. It's downright pathetic.

Too true. Except most fathers want to remain in their children's lives as a
parent but are not allowed. The government promise is custody and a C$
order, which is promoted as "liberating" for women. In fact, it makes them
dependent on the government instead of their husbands and due to the
monolothic number of laws in this regard, the husbands then come under the
control of the government as well.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women. Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some
women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are
sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a
natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large part
of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day. There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one
of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.

No, the problem is behavior and attitude. Just having the attitude
that it's not so easy to say no. Everything is easier said than done,
but who even tries anymore. There's nothing guiding anyone to say no.
People screw around because they want to and they can. Who needs
marriage anymore?

Phil #3 wrote:
The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large part of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent does not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day. There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:50:15 -0800, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
If a man sires a kid he should pay support for the kid.

Why should a man "pay support"? Why can a man not raise a child? His
responsibilities can be met by raising the child 50% of the time. I have
been trying to get you to answer this, Tonita. WHY is it a man's
responsibility to *pay money* rather than fulfill his responsibility to the
child by actually being a parent to that child?

I'm a bit perplexed at your tunnel vision, mama, what easier way to
garner a guaranteed income than breeding?


Simple
concept. I have been responding in the context of the original post
about a guy not wanting to pay financial support for a "surprise" baby.
Of course I believe that both parents should be involved in the
rearing of the kid. I also believe that kids should be raised in a
cohesive, two-parent home, that men and women should behave like adults
and keep their hormones in check, that men and women have different
roles in the family, that feminists today are sad, pathetic creatures.
If a woman posted something similar I would have the same message for
her. If you don't want a child, don't engage in behavior that will
create one. Intercourse can lead to pregnancy no matter what kind of
birth control you are using outside of abstinence. No one should be
surprised or horrified if there is a pregnancy after sexual
intercourse. It happens. There is no "trickery" involved.

teachrmama wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day. There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.

There is a *big difference* between blaming someone else, and accepting
equal responsibility. Don't you think that BOTH PARENTS should have
equal
rights and responsibilities in the raising of their children? Or do you
really believe that the woman should raise the child and the man should
pay
for it?


A jury is 12 individuals who decides who has the best lawyer.
- Mark Twain

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I guess the feminists have suceeded in beating men down. I
always say anything worth having is worth fighting for. Maybe it's
time for men and women to start behaving themselves so none of this
will happen? It's still a blame game. Blame the man, blame the woman,
blame the government. I suppose if I had a child out of wedlock I
could turn to the government for help but I didn't and I won't. My
kids didn't. My friends didn't. It all boils down to behavior and the
attitude of wanting something more for one's life and the lives of
their children. The idea of living a more dignified life. People can
change but they don't have to. It's a societal problem, government
included but I don't think it's totally to blame. There are no values
to stand behind anymore. Nobody has to have values or, dare I say,
morals. It's a free-for-all world and everybody just stands by and
watches and supports. I can't change it but I certainly haven't
contributed to it either.


Blame is not the correct word. Identifying a problem is the first step in
correcting it.

Do you have any idea about the possibility of an unmarried father gaining
custody?
It is so close to impossible as to *be* impossible and without at least
$150K to spend on lawyers, it just won't happen and probably won't then.
It's damn near impossible for a divorced father as well.
Mothers are freely given what men must fight for and usually are denied
including custody and in the cases where father gets custody (almost always
because the mother allowed it), they rarely get C$.

In my opinion, the drop in respect for others led to legalized
abortion-as-birth-control and the so-called 'no-fault' divorces. The
nation's thought is "it's all about *me*".
Phil #3

Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
I respectfully disagree with, well...everything. You make it sound as
if when a man doesn't get sex he'll either walk around with an eternal
erection or he'll end up raping someone.

You apparently misunderstood.

We all know that isn't true.
People can use their intellect far more than they do.

They *can* but as long as we let the government tell us how to think, why
bother?

Self control and
self discipline. As for the government, that's kind of far fetched.

Not at all. Apparently you are unaware that the state governments, the
ones
that force the child support guidelines upon the People, rake a tidy
profit
from the federal government in the form of block grants as a reward for
collecting child support. Then add to it the interest on millions of
dollars
sitting in the government accounts for varying lengths of 1-3 months
before
disbursment.

The government, at least in my opinion, horns in when there is a lot of
public pressure. Look at our society today...political correctness and
all of that crap. It is so acceptable for a teenaged girl to get
knocked up, continue school, keep the kid go to junior prom and do it
again the next year. Or worse, quit school and have babies as a
career. The government pays because there isn't a choice anymore.

Sure there's a choice, several in fact, but the basic step is for the
governement to butt out. The government rewards women who operate the
system
by giving them the lion's share of the marriage plus custody of the
children
and far more money than is needed to support those children and people
are
surprised when the numbers of these women increase. Whether the mother
has
been married or not, the subject is the same: rewarding bad behavior and
wondering why the bad behavior increases.

It's done so kids won't starve or die.

Hardly. It's done for political correctness; that is, feminists demand
women
be treated special and men be punished for being male.
Child support has nothing to do with supporting children. Most fathers
would
do whatever is necessary for their children but the government will not
permit it.

It's almost a badge of honor to
be a single mother these days. It's shameful. I think it happens
because there are so many fatherless homes.

To a large degree, absolutely. So it is with may pathological amomalities
such as failing or dropping out of school, drug use, runaway juveniles,
child abuse and neglect, crime and many others.

I don't agree with any of
it but that's the way it is. People get divorced because they can, men
abandon because they can, women think they can have it all but they
can't. That's why marriages end and thank the feminists for the victim
status many women take. It's downright pathetic.

Too true. Except most fathers want to remain in their children's lives as
a
parent but are not allowed. The government promise is custody and a C$
order, which is promoted as "liberating" for women. In fact, it makes
them
dependent on the government instead of their husbands and due to the
monolothic number of laws in this regard, the husbands then come under
the
control of the government as well.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women.
Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some
women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are
sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a
natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply
of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need
for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large
part
of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent
does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from
enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City"
moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the
adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the
kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and
women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together
to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and
they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their
bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't
have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is
one
of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.

"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
If a man sires a kid he should pay support for the kid.

Why?

Simple
concept. I have been responding in the context of the original post
about a guy not wanting to pay financial support for a "surprise" baby.
Of course I believe that both parents should be involved in the
rearing of the kid. I also believe that kids should be raised in a
cohesive, two-parent home, that men and women should behave like adults
and keep their hormones in check, that men and women have different
roles in the family, that feminists today are sad, pathetic creatures.
If a woman posted something similar I would have the same message for
her. If you don't want a child, don't engage in behavior that will
create one. Intercourse can lead to pregnancy no matter what kind of
birth control you are using outside of abstinence. No one should be
surprised or horrified if there is a pregnancy after sexual
intercourse. It happens. There is no "trickery" involved.

teachrmama wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.

There is a *big difference* between blaming someone else, and accepting
equal responsibility. Don't you think that BOTH PARENTS should have
equal
rights and responsibilities in the raising of their children? Or do you
really believe that the woman should raise the child and the man should
pay
for it?

"Phil #3" wrote in message
nk.net...

"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women. Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large part of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day. There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.

tonita wrote:
Well, I guess the feminists have suceeded in beating men down. I
always say anything worth having is worth fighting for. Maybe it's
time for men and women to start behaving themselves so none of this
will happen? It's still a blame game. Blame the man, blame the woman,
blame the government. I suppose if I had a child out of wedlock I
could turn to the government for help but I didn't and I won't. My
kids didn't. My friends didn't. It all boils down to behavior and the
attitude of wanting something more for one's life and the lives of
their children. The idea of living a more dignified life. People can
change but they don't have to. It's a societal problem, government
included but I don't think it's totally to blame. There are no values
to stand behind anymore.

Exactly.

Nobody has to have values or, dare I say, morals.

Yes - exactly, again.

It's a free-for-all world and everybody just stands by and
watches and supports. I can't change it but I certainly haven't
contributed to it either.

Tonita, you're wasting your time trying to get it to register "over there".
There's nothing "there". Just a vacuum.

Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
I respectfully disagree with, well...everything. You make it sound as
if when a man doesn't get sex he'll either walk around with an eternal
erection or he'll end up raping someone.

You apparently misunderstood.

We all know that isn't true.
People can use their intellect far more than they do.

They *can* but as long as we let the government tell us how to think, why
bother?

Self control and
self discipline. As for the government, that's kind of far fetched.

Not at all. Apparently you are unaware that the state governments, the
ones
that force the child support guidelines upon the People, rake a tidy
profit
from the federal government in the form of block grants as a reward for
collecting child support. Then add to it the interest on millions of
dollars
sitting in the government accounts for varying lengths of 1-3 months
before
disbursment.

The government, at least in my opinion, horns in when there is a lot of
public pressure. Look at our society today...political correctness and
all of that crap. It is so acceptable for a teenaged girl to get
knocked up, continue school, keep the kid go to junior prom and do it
again the next year. Or worse, quit school and have babies as a
career. The government pays because there isn't a choice anymore.

Sure there's a choice, several in fact, but the basic step is for the
governement to butt out. The government rewards women who operate the
system
by giving them the lion's share of the marriage plus custody of the
children
and far more money than is needed to support those children and people
are
surprised when the numbers of these women increase. Whether the mother
has
been married or not, the subject is the same: rewarding bad behavior and
wondering why the bad behavior increases.

It's done so kids won't starve or die.

Hardly. It's done for political correctness; that is, feminists demand
women
be treated special and men be punished for being male.
Child support has nothing to do with supporting children. Most fathers
would
do whatever is necessary for their children but the government will not
permit it.

It's almost a badge of honor to
be a single mother these days. It's shameful. I think it happens
because there are so many fatherless homes.

To a large degree, absolutely. So it is with may pathological amomalities
such as failing or dropping out of school, drug use, runaway juveniles,
child abuse and neglect, crime and many others.

I don't agree with any of
it but that's the way it is. People get divorced because they can, men
abandon because they can, women think they can have it all but they
can't. That's why marriages end and thank the feminists for the victim
status many women take. It's downright pathetic.

Too true. Except most fathers want to remain in their children's lives as
a
parent but are not allowed. The government promise is custody and a C$
order, which is promoted as "liberating" for women. In fact, it makes
them
dependent on the government instead of their husbands and due to the
monolothic number of laws in this regard, the husbands then come under
the
control of the government as well.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women. Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some
women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are
sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a
natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need
for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large part
of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent
does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from
enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City" moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one
of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.