Saddam: Physically Punished in the WOMB!

Kane wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:12:13 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:



Kane,

You have a good idea of what due process is.



Well, duh!



However, like so many
others, you fail to grasp its essence.



I'll bet you are going to tell me now.



The idea of innocent until
proven guilty, is generally, conceived to go hand in hand with the


idea


of due process.



This is the "essence" of due process? Could you clarify?



The regulations, here in Maryland, do not cite
procedures that follow, de facto, due process. No proof needs to be
present, to remove a child from a parents custody.



Please post the relevent statutes.



The right to a jury
is not granted in these civil hearings.



Mmmm...let me see now. No jury...mmmmhhhhhmmmm.



There is also the test for
reasonableness.



Hokay.



Roe v Wade was decided partly on the basis of it is
unreasonable for the state to interfere with a woman's right ot


abortion


in the first trimester.



Yes. I follow you so far.



Yes we want CPS hearings all to be criminal
charges, because they do not hold water otherwise, especially charges


of


spanking a child.



Oh, here we part company. No one has their child taken from them
permanently for "spanking." That's a subtrefuge claim by those that
"spank" and leave injuries and do OTHER damage they don't talk about
because they know confidintiality laws protect them.


I am glad to see that you recognize that children do belong to "their"
parents.



It is not reasonable for the state to interefere in a
parent's right to spank his or her child, at least in Maryland.



It is morally and ethically reasonable but at this time it is not
legally permissable in any state. The issue isn't if a parent "spanks"
a child, but if they INJURE a child.

You are coming around! Good, now that you agree that spanking is not an
issue lets discuss what an injury is.




But CPS
use the ambiguity of the regulations



Please show the Maryland statute defining spanking as abusive and
actionable under child welfare law.



to produce undue hardship



Ah, the "poor me" ploy. I whipped my kid hard enough for the folks at
the local school and my neighbors and or the corner grocer to be
concerned and whose business is it anyway if I permanently damage my
child. I can convince myself I was just disciplining for the child's
own good and I "looooove" my child.

Congratulations. You are finally getting the point. The neighbors and
the corner grocer "hate" CPS. I know every neighbor on my street, 20
houses, each and every one spanks their children, or spanked their
children at some time or another, and that is in a liberal minded,
middle to upper middle class neighborhood. Only the local school
reports suspicion of abuse based on willy nilly observations, but that
is due to the legal coercion for them to report, not out of a moral or
ethical desire to report it. Any real sign of abuse of a child, not
spanking, or the nonsensical extension of injury that CPS uses to
disrupt families for their social planning, would be report by all of
the neighbors.




on
parents that do spank in order to force their social programing on


them.

ABSO****INLOOTALY. It is the desire of this society that parents do
NOT injure their children intentionally...or even by negligence and
it's damn well a "program" in that a system is set up to slow or stop
it when possible.

Again, can you define injury. Even the Maryland highest court has
supported the right of parents to spank their children, intentionally,
and on only when it is an egregious injury, not just any "injury" do
they find the the state has a right to intervene, oops, they must know
the basis of state intervention, not like you. You do not know what
society desires, you are so far out of it in your obtruse ideology to be
really in touch with society.



Just the usual "Blah blah poor me" from the child abusers. Have you
any idea how many times this same bit of nonsense has been posted in
these ngs?

"Child abusers", this has no meaning, it is just name calling without
substance.




In CPS hearings the burden is placed on the parent to prove their
innocence.



Liar. The state has a burden to prove guilt and the plaintif to refute
that claim as either false or unsupported by the evidence offered.

Of course I am a liar. But the idea of the burden of proof being with
the state is a fantasy. It is the burden of the state only to produce
evidence, if a parent cannot successfully disprove the evidence then
they are found guilty, or indicated, or the "evidence is substantiated".
Get real, that is not due process.




Now tell me again how this follows the tenets of due process?



Okay.

I've just done a runthrough of Maryland family and child welfare law.
It appears to be consistent with the US Constitution and amendments.
It HAS process and it is a DUE process as definded by the USC.

If you don't agree stop lollygaggin' and whinin' around here and go to
your statehouse and make a stink. Lobby, write letters to the editor,
letters to your representatives, bring the feds in (brrrrrr) if you
think that would help...

Good boy, been there done that, still doing that, and exposing the CPS
and overturning their findings has been a great joy for me. But you
know, just like rats around a garbage dump, you kill one, or even two or
three or four or more, they just keep coming. Hmmm, maybe we should
call in the Pied Piper.


But, what I think I'm seeing here is yet another neanderthal argument
that children are property

Yes, we should just leave them on the doorstep of the state, oh they
don't belong to the state, hmmmm, the have their own LIBERTY INTEREST,
but geez, can they vote to go back to their families, hmmm, no, can they
support themselves without help from an adult, you seem to think that
failure to thrive is a natural conditon that we should expose our
children to because, of course, they don't "belong" to us, hmmmm,

and can be treated anyway the parent unit
wishes to treat them and society has no investment in the growth of a
healthy mentally stable, crime free child.

Ain't a gonna happen, bubbah.

Move to a thirdworld country where children and women are bought and
sold with goats as currency.

State gotchyah, didn't it?

Wanna tell us your story? You might even convince me, and in fact, if
you are still helpable some here would even help YOU. But yah gotta
get honest and stop the pretense of debate with me and others. Or
backchannel a helper.

Try Greegor or Leakin' They have a really hot record of success with
CPS and helping families...0 to zero.

It's time to pony up.

Kane

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:45:54 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:

Notice what claims are made by you, Bryan, that you do NOT answer when
I ask for clarification or justification.




Kane wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:12:13 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:



Kane,

You have a good idea of what due process is.



Well, duh!



However, like so many
others, you fail to grasp its essence.



I'll bet you are going to tell me now.



The idea of innocent until
proven guilty, is generally, conceived to go hand in hand with the


idea


of due process.



This is the "essence" of due process? Could you clarify?

Nothing. Just as I suspected.




The regulations, here in Maryland, do not cite
procedures that follow, de facto, due process. No proof needs to
be
present, to remove a child from a parents custody.



Please post the relevent statutes.

Nothing. We have no debate if you will not respond to the requests for
support of your claims.

I suspect you are lying, rather a lot.

The right to a jury
is not granted in these civil hearings.



Mmmm...let me see now. No jury...mmmmhhhhhmmmm.



There is also the test for
reasonableness.



Hokay.



Roe v Wade was decided partly on the basis of it is
unreasonable for the state to interfere with a woman's right ot


abortion


in the first trimester.



Yes. I follow you so far.



Yes we want CPS hearings all to be criminal
charges, because they do not hold water otherwise, especially
charges


of


spanking a child.



Oh, here we part company. No one has their child taken from them
permanently for "spanking." That's a subtrefuge claim by those that
"spank" and leave injuries and do OTHER damage they don't talk about
because they know confidintiality laws protect them.


I am glad to see that you recognize that children do belong to
"their"
parents.

What in that statement of mine establishes that I believe parents
"own" their children and may do what they wish with them?



It is not reasonable for the state to interefere in a
parent's right to spank his or her child, at least in Maryland.



It is morally and ethically reasonable but at this time it is not
legally permissable in any state. The issue isn't if a parent
"spanks"
a child, but if they INJURE a child.

You are coming around! Good, now that you agree that spanking is not
an
issue lets discuss what an injury is.

I did not say "I" agree to anything. I am describing the situation,
not my position.

And spanking IS an issue since it so often DOES escalate to or is
applied so stupidly to the point of injury.

The problem, smart ass, is that you can't define none injurious
spanking. No one can, as have been amply proven. The impact, both
physical and psychological, on the child, is unknowable at this time.
And what little IS known, objectively, through scientific study, is
not looking good for even the mildest of hitting or other pain applied
by the caregiver.




But CPS
use the ambiguity of the regulations



Please show the Maryland statute defining spanking as abusive and
actionable under child welfare law.

Nothing. Just as I suspected.


to produce undue hardship



Ah, the "poor me" ploy. I whipped my kid hard enough for the folks
at
the local school and my neighbors and or the corner grocer to be
concerned and whose business is it anyway if I permanently damage my
child. I can convince myself I was just disciplining for the child's
own good and I "looooove" my child.

Congratulations. You are finally getting the point.

No, that was a statement of what vicious ****s like you think. I don't
whip children, and never have.

The neighbors and
the corner grocer "hate" CPS.

Gosh, I guess it's the family pet calling the authorities.

I know every neighbor on my street, 20
houses, each and every one spanks their children, or spanked their
children at some time or another, and that is in a liberal minded,
middle to upper middle class neighborhood.

90% of the population does spank their child. 100% of the population
used to accept as "natural" that women were possessions and had no
right to vote, contract, own property either. We grew up. We have
further to go.

Only the local school
reports suspicion of abuse based on willy nilly observations, but
that
is due to the legal coercion for them to report, not out of a moral
or
ethical desire to report it.

You are lying. Relatives, often grandparents, are among the top
reporters, as are doctors. So your "only" claim is a crock of ****
just as the rest of your nonsense and viciousness toward children.

Any real sign of abuse of a child, not
spanking, or the nonsensical extension of injury that CPS uses to
disrupt families for their social planning, would be report by all of
the neighbors.

Liar.

Minimizing "spanking" and it's injuries to children is a common
occurance and covered up often by family and friends. You are savages
attempting to rationalize and excuse your brutality.


on
parents that do spank in order to force their social programing on


them.

ABSO****INLOOTALY. It is the desire of this society that parents do
NOT injure their children intentionally...or even by negligence and
it's damn well a "program" in that a system is set up to slow or
stop
it when possible.

What you also seem to miss is that SPANKING is an attempt by a social
institution (parents) to "force their social programing" on children.

Good for the goose, good for the gander. You spank, you get spanked.

Again, can you define injury.

Yep. It's done all the time. The levels of agreement on injury are
extremely high. It's a function of medicine. A decent doctor with
training and reference sources can define it and what it is NOT quite
well.

Can you define spanking? Show me the references and expertise on this.

Even the Maryland highest court has
supported the right of parents to spank their children,
intentionally,
and on only when it is an egregious injury, not just any "injury" do
they find the the state has a right to intervene, oops, they must
know
the basis of state intervention, not like you.

You've proven yourself a liar so far. Why should we believe you now.
Provide tracable citations for your claims of the Maryland courts
findings.

By the way, you are a pompous self opinionated nearly illiterate boob.

You do not know what
society desires,

I don't have to "know." I only have to read the media and look at the
laws.

you are so far out of it in your obtruse ideology to be
really in touch with society.

"obtruse" is not a word, and it's obtuse of you to use it. As is your
other attempts at intellect that mark you as a phony.


Just the usual "Blah blah poor me" from the child abusers. Have you
any idea how many times this same bit of nonsense has been posted in
these ngs?

"Child abusers", this has no meaning, it is just name calling
without
substance.

Child abuse is definable. It is common also for them to deny and or
minimize their injuries of children and attempt to weasel out of
paying for it. YOU are babbling the usual babble of child abusers.

You WISH it had no meaning, but unfortunately for you, "child abusers"
does have meaning and fits you to a tee.

In CPS hearings the burden is placed on the parent to prove their
innocence.



Liar. The state has a burden to prove guilt and the plaintif to
refute
that claim as either false or unsupported by the evidence offered.

Of course I am a liar.

Yep. Now you are catching on.

But the idea of the burden of proof being with
the state is a fantasy. It is the burden of the state only to
produce
evidence, if a parent cannot successfully disprove the evidence then
they are found guilty, or indicated, or the "evidence is
substantiated".
Get real, that is not due process.

Sophist nonsense. Of course if the plaintiff can't refute the evidence
of the state they are found guilty. The evidence is a proof of guilt
or should not be presented.

What an asshole.




Now tell me again how this follows the tenets of due process?



Okay.

I've just done a runthrough of Maryland family and child welfare
law.
It appears to be consistent with the US Constitution and amendments.
It HAS process and it is a DUE process as definded by the USC.

If you don't agree stop lollygaggin' and whinin' around here and go
to
your statehouse and make a stink. Lobby, write letters to the
editor,
letters to your representatives, bring the feds in (brrrrrr) if you
think that would help...

Good boy, been there done that, still doing that, and exposing the
CPS
and overturning their findings has been a great joy for me.

Show us your letters.

You are nothing but yet another lying thug hanging about in these ngs
because you have zero credibility elsewhere.

But you
know, just like rats around a garbage dump, you kill one, or even two
or
three or four or more, they just keep coming. Hmmm, maybe we should
call in the Pied Piper.

But, what I think I'm seeing here is yet another neanderthal
argument
that children are property

Yes, we should just leave them on the doorstep of the state, oh they
don't belong to the state, hmmmm, the have their own LIBERTY
INTEREST,

Yes they do. And parents are charged with protecting those interests.
Are you saying children don't have civil rights? If so speak right up.
We can't heeeeeer you.

but geez, can they vote to go back to their families, hmmm, no,

Stating the obvious is a strawman.

can they
support themselves without help from an adult,

Straw.

you seem to think that
failure to thrive is a natural conditon

Please point out where I say anything that supports your claim.

that we should expose our
children to because, of course,

You are fantasizing about what I think or mean. It would be nice if
you could base something, anything, on real statements of mine.

they don't "belong" to us, hmmmm,

No, they don't "belong" to you, stupid. That's the point of this
discussion. YOU DON'T OWN THEM, THEY OWN YOU!

YOU belong to them until they can care for themselves. YOU are their
servant and supporter or the state will see to it that you don't keep
them. If you starve or injure them you don't deserve to have them in
your care.

Parents aren't referred to as "caregivers" by any accident of
language. It's the failure to care for the children that abrogates the
child's civil rights. And when the parent does that they forfeit the
right to be that child's parent.

and can be treated anyway the parent unit
wishes to treat them and society has no investment in the growth of
a
healthy mentally stable, crime free child.

It's very telling what you won't respond to, isn't it.

Do you believe that society has an investment in and right to expect
certain outcome in the child?

Ain't a gonna happen, bubbah.

Move to a thirdworld country where children and women are bought and
sold with goats as currency.

No response? Hmmmm...I can see where you would like this country to go
then.

State gotchyah, didn't it?

Gee, no response. I wonder why.

Wanna tell us your story? You might even convince me, and in fact,
if
you are still helpable some here would even help YOU. But yah gotta
get honest and stop the pretense of debate with me and others. Or
backchannel a helper.

Of course. No comment.

Try Greegor or Leakin' They have a really hot record of success with
CPS and helping families...0 to zero.

It's time to pony up.

We are waiting...............phony balogna, the major ingredient for a
sock puppet.

Kane