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#61
September 26th 05, 06:53 PM
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"Elle" wrote in message oups.com... Joybelle wrote: That is a great story, Elle. Thank you! The thing is I think she also got a lot of remarks questioning why she didn't have a c-section, inferring her doctors somehow didn't handle it right. I don't know why on earth lay people, with no experience whatsoever with spina bifida or labour/delivery would say such things (as if she, and you too, don't have enough to worry about)... The parents are the ones who have consulted the experts and laid awake at night mulling over all the scenarios. I don't know why folks don't respect that. I don't know either. I've had several people tell me I should have a c-section because of some scenario or somebody they know. *sigh* I still might have a c-section, but it isn't going to be out of fear! It is interesting how many people tell you to listen to the doctors only when the agree with what the doctor has to say.  I sometimes feel like I have todefend my choice, though I don't usually try to. At this point, people haven't been too bad. I'd say my mom and sister have been the worst, and I have to wonder if that's because a lot of people are making comments to them rather than me. Best of luck Joy. Thank you, Elle! -- Joy Rose 1-99 Iris 2-01 Spencer 3-03 # 4 Sept 2005 
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#62
September 26th 05, 06:57 PM
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"Jenrose" wrote in message news:1127595080.14153116d3524c35b44ee29ced98048b@t eranews... "Joybelle" wrote in message ... "Jamie Clark" wrote in message ... Yeah, that makes perfect sense, the fact that your nephews birth would be bringing stuff up. I really think so. I feel like I'm mourning the loss of my homebirth and "normal" baby all over again. Seeing my nephew born was amazing, but seeing his perfection makes me afraid of how different mine might be. It's that unknown again, and I HATE that! It doesn't really stop with birth... hell, in our case it just *started* with birth. Oh, I believe that!! My oldest was born with a clubfoot. A pretty minor defect in comparison to spina bifida, but I still worry about her foot, its development, and every little comment she makes about her foot, ankle, knee or hip hurting. Is it related? Is it normal? I don't expect the unknowns to disappear, I guess, I just get downright frustrated with them now and then! She's 6 months old and in some ways amazing and I still wonder day-to-day what today's "strangeness" will be. She still doesn't babble but says, "MOM!" clearly and with intent. She *just* discovered toys and developed an opinion that toys should be present during all waking times when she is not actively being played with. She can balance sitting up for about 45 seconds, but still has "head lag" when you sit her up by her arms. We just don't know how fast or how far she will progress, and take it day by day. Day by day is good advice. It's hard to do and takes effort, but it is what works! -- Joy Rose 1-99 Iris 2-01 Spencer 3-03 # 4 Sept/Oct 2005
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#64
September 29th 05, 07:43 AM
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This has been extensively snipped (in vain) for clarity, it hasn't been
censored ;-) I think your original post was helpful and polite. As usual, the thread got way off track and descended into personal attacks. Mind you, I'm not the usenet posting police, so I'm going to shut up now. I am not the usenet posting police either - but I say in my usenet posting that obstetricians ARE committing major crimes against mothers and babies. Larry McMahan says in his usenet posting that obstetricians are NOT committing major crimes against mothers and babies. On a technicality, going by current USA law and the enforcement of said law, Larry is probably right. On moral terms, you're right. Morally, Larry may agree with you - I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him. That's why I find arguing the point a little senseless. I'm assuming that Larry is referring to more than "just" the mass vagina slicing to open birth canals even as obstetricians close birth canals the "extra" up to 30%. Here it is 2005 and obstetricians are still fraudulently telling women they are preventing severe tears. Ignoring research - slicing vaginas and telling lies instead of obtaining informed consent - that is MASS BATTERY. The ONLY thing sustaining it is law enforcement looking the other way. Law enforcement is looking the other way because LOTS of people are failing to identify the obvious crime as crime. Larry could have simply remained silent. Instead he decided to state affirmatively that crime is NOT occurring. He said it was substandard care, didn't he? Unfortunately, at many hospitals and in parts of the USA that care probably *is* standard. I believe calling it substandard may be an understatement, but it's accurate. If it's standard, then there's a real problem with what we're setting our standards by. Larry is indirectly aiding and abetting in the senseless mass vagina slicing. PMSL! I know this is a serious subject, but do you realise how funny that line looks? MKP/misc.kids.pregnancy is a usenet newsgroup NOT a private list. People have the option of posting anonymously if they wish. Of course. But IMO manners have a place here, as they do in most public forums. Perhaps you could consider a career in politics? Politics is part of the problem. Law enforcement is engaging in foot-dragging politics as women are assaulted en masse; and Larry is pretending that law enforcement foot-dragging politics means that no crime is occurring. I was being facetious and mildly insulting. Larry snipped my correction along with my mention of his bizarre "obstetric crime is substandard care" came - and jumped in with his concern for netiquette. I don't think usenetters always snip with the intent of being intellectually dishonest. Sometimes they snip because it's just too darn long for everyone to re-read. The original post is still there for others to read. I sometimes snip indiscriminately if the part snipped is irrrelevant to the point I'm replying to, as you can see. I say again: Larry is blithely calling massive obstetric crimes against babies mere standard "substandard" care. So far as I can see, the only leg Larry has to stand on is the sordid fact that law enforcement is failing to enforce. As Steve B. Harris, MD arrogantly notes: "Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no crime. These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to you." http://groups.google.com/group/misc....866f3384801ae9 Steve may be arrogant, but he may also be an arrogant correct asshole. The fact that he's correct *is* the problem in this case. And as far as I can see, it also makes Larry technically correct. That is the problem! No enforcement! See above. Ericka publicly lied - said that Henci Goer discusses in her books the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up. Lying is a strong word. I think to prove that Ericka lied, you'd have to prove that she was consciously aware that the statement she made was incorrect at the time she made it. I don't see how you could do that. I have not read Henci Goer, but if Ericka is incorrect about her books, my first thought would be that Ericka had mixed up Henci's book with another, or recalled incorrectly. Why would she set out to deliberately deceive the readers of MKP, and how can you prove that? Larry McMahan employs semantics which help perpetuate the crimes - saying the crimes are mere standard "substandard" care. I agree with most everything in your posts. I agree with what you're trying to achieve. I appreciate this, Amy. But law enforcement is looking the other way. That does NOT mean that obstetricians aren't committing the crimes I allege. Larry has publicly indicated that the obstetric crimes I allege are NOT crimes. With law enforcement looking the other way, Larry is not only not helping to identify the crimes as crimes - he is - without offering substantive critism - encouraging OTHERS to look the other way - thereby FURTHER concealing the crimes. Ericka has LIED in response to my point about prominent childbirth educator Henci Goer failing to address the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30%, etc. Larry and Ericka are engaging in CRAPPY "netiquette" - intellectually dishonest argumentation. Larry and Ericka are sometimes named as having influenced decisions/helped people - their opinions count - they are well-liked - and I am saying - frankly - I don't care whether they are well-liked - CRIME is being committed - law enforcement is looking the other way - and these two well-liked people aren't helping. I don't _always_ agree with the way you do it. Do you want to be a one man army? NO! But if I am the only one calling Ericka and Larry on their bull**** - so be it. I believe 100% of babies would NOT want me "being political" - ignoring their bull****. Rather, I believe 100% would want me calling attention to it - as long as the obstetric crime is ongoing. Do you suppose public opinion of you as an anti-social kook helps your cause? When you ignore Ericka's silence and Larry's blithe "NOT" - and criticize ME as "an anti-social kook" because I won't let it slide - you are contributing to that public perception of me. I'm not - intentionally - criticising you with that statement, and I don't think you're an anti-social kook. I've seen words to that effect bandied about a bit here recently in regards to your posts. It was nice, though, that you followed up with... FWIW, I think you're a pleasant person and your material is well-researched - *but* you have a knack of alienating people. I have a knack of speaking truth to power to stop power from committing crime - and Ericka and Larry have a knack of behaving as if power has the right to commit crime. People in power around the world commit all kinds of heinous crimes. Perhaps Ericka & Larry have just picked their battles, and that wasn't one of them? That doesn't, in my opinion, constitute the condoning of the rights of those in power to commit crimes. -- Amy Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02, & Ana born screaming 30/06/04 http://www.freewebs.com/carlos2002/ http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/ana%5Fj%5F2004/ My blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/querer-hijo-querer-hija/
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#65
September 29th 05, 12:45 PM
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Mum of Two wrote:
Lying is a strong word. I think to prove that Ericka lied, you'd have to prove that she was consciously aware that the statement she made was incorrect at the time she made it. I don't see how you could do that. I have not read Henci Goer, but if Ericka is incorrect about her books, my first thought would be that Ericka had mixed up Henci's book with another, or recalled incorrectly. Why would she set out to deliberately deceive the readers of MKP, and how can you prove that? No, Ericka is quite clear on what Henci Goer has written, and anyone short of a two year old would clearly understand that Henci promotes optimal birthing positions. But, because she doesn't use precisely the words that Todd prefers and because she doesn't go around screeching about crimes and calling people names, and because she doesn't say it on every page of every book or article she writes, he refuses to acknowledge that she does so. Todd is free to call that "lying" if he chooses, but I don't have to play along. Best wishes, Ericka
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#66
September 29th 05, 03:54 PM
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PREGNANT WOMEN: Obstetricians are senselessly closing birth canals up to
30% and it is easy for you to allow your birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%. See Dents in babies' skulls (and SJ Doc) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897 BABIES AND LARRY McMAHAN'S NONSENSE Standard care cannot be "substandard"... Larry pretends that obstetric crime is NOT occurring (NOT is Larry's emphasis) - even though obstetricians are lying and slicing vaginas en masse. In fact, obvious battery is occurring. ERICKA'S HENCI GOER JOKE - AGAIN Maybe Amy (Mum of Two) is right - maybe Ericka is just mixed up (see below). I kind of hope that's the case - but I doubt it. Maybe Larry is just mixed up too... The question is: Why is prominent childbirth educator HENCI GOER silent about obstetricians closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck? Henci would STRENGTHEN her arguments by stating these simple facts - yet Larry pretends otherwise - further nonsense from Larry... See below. AMY (MUM OF TWO) WROTE: I think your original post was helpful and polite. As usual, the thread got way off track and descended into personal attacks. Mind you, I'm not the usenet posting police, so I'm going to shut up now. I REPLIED: I am not the usenet posting police either - but I say in my usenet posting that obstetricians ARE committing major crimes against mothers and babies. Larry McMahan says in his usenet posting that obstetricians are NOT committing major crimes against mothers and babies. AMY NOW SAYS: On a technicality, going by current USA law and the enforcement of said law, Larry is probably right. On moral terms, you're right. Morally, Larry may agree with you - I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him. That's why I find arguing the point a little senseless. Larry has indicated that no crime is being committed. Obstetricians are fraudulently telling women that their vaginas are being sliced to prevent severe tears - when the evidence is that episiotomized women suffer 50X more severe tears than women who are not episiotomized... Obstetricians are fraudulently claiming to be slicing vaginas to open birth canals - even as birth canals are being senselessly closed up to 30%... It's obvious crime - obvious battery. The "technicality" - law enforcement failing to enforce the crime - does NOT mean a crime is not being committed. Larry is simply wrong. I'm assuming that Larry is referring to more than "just" the mass vagina slicing to open birth canals even as obstetricians close birth canals the "extra" up to 30%. Here it is 2005 and obstetricians are still fraudulently telling women they are preventing severe tears. Ignoring research - slicing vaginas and telling lies instead of obtaining informed consent - that is MASS BATTERY. The ONLY thing sustaining it is law enforcement looking the other way. Law enforcement is looking the other way because LOTS of people are failing to identify the obvious crime as crime. Larry could have simply remained silent. Instead he decided to state affirmatively that crime is NOT occurring. He said it was substandard care, didn't he? Thank you for bring up this aspect of Larry's error. As you note: Unfortunately, at many hospitals and in parts of the USA that care probably *is* standard. I believe calling it substandard may be an understatement, but it's accurate. Calling something that is standard "substandard" is error. If it's standard, then there's a real problem with what we're setting our standards by. If it's standard care, then it's not substandard care. Larry is indirectly aiding and abetting in the senseless mass vagina slicing. PMSL! I know this is a serious subject, but do you realise how funny that line looks? I don't know what PMSL means - but as long as people fail to identify obvious crime - law enforcement will continue to look the other way - and obstetricians will continue to commit it. MKP/misc.kids.pregnancy is a usenet newsgroup NOT a private list. People have the option of posting anonymously if they wish. Of course. But IMO manners have a place here, as they do in most public forums. Perhaps you could consider a career in politics? Politics is part of the problem. Law enforcement is engaging in foot-dragging politics as women are assaulted en masse; and Larry is pretending that law enforcement foot-dragging politics means that no crime is occurring. I was being facetious and mildly insulting. LOL! Insulting me after saying "Manners have a place here." Larry snipped my correction along with my mention of his bizarre "obstetric crime is substandard care" came - and jumped in with his concern for netiquette. I don't think usenetters always snip with the intent of being intellectually dishonest. Larry snipped my mention of his intellectual dishonesty - his standard "substandard" care nonsense - then embellished with further intellectual dishonesty by tooting the "netiquette" bandwagon horn. You just supported his standard "substandard" care nonsense. If care is standard, it cannot be substandard. Sometimes they snip because it's just too darn long for everyone to re-read. Re-reading is not necessary. With the quote-back system one can QUICKLY scroll and read interspersions in the original full text. The original post is still there for others to read. I sometimes snip indiscriminately if the part snipped is irrrelevant to the point I'm replying to, as you can see. Larry snipping my criticism of his standard "substandard" care nonsense was either indiscriminate snipping - or - as I am assuming - it was quite discriminate - he wanted to toot the "netiquette" bandwagon horn to cover-up HIS bad "netiquette" (intellectual dishonesty) - thereby engaging in further intellectual dishonesty. I say again: Larry is blithely calling massive obstetric crimes against babies mere standard "substandard" care. So far as I can see, the only leg Larry has to stand on is the sordid fact that law enforcement is failing to enforce. As Steve B. Harris, MD arrogantly notes: "Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no crime. These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to you." http://groups.google.com/group/misc....866f3384801ae9 Steve may be arrogant, but he may also be an arrogant correct asshole. I don't think there is any question that Steve B. Harris, MD is an arrogant asshole. He is also committing crime. He acknowledges crime is being committed against children and fails to report it. Failure to report child abuse is a child abuse crime because it can perpetuate child abuse. Larry is similarly engaging in failing to report child abuse - but unlike Steve, I don't think Larry is mandated to report it. The fact that [Steve B. Harris, MD is] correct *is* the problem in this case. We agree to this point. And as far as I can see, it also makes Larry technically correct. No, Larry is not saying what Steve B. Harris, MD is saying. Rather, Larry is saying that the mass vagina slicing is NOT crime - PERIOD. Larry's standard "substandard" care nonsense embellishes his false assertion. That is the problem! No enforcement! See above. Ericka publicly lied - said that Henci Goer discusses in her books the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up. Lying is a strong word. I think to prove that Ericka lied, you'd have to prove that she was consciously aware that the statement she made was incorrect at the time she made it. I don't see how you could do that. Ericka is either stupid or she is lying/intentionally deceiving. When I noted that Henci is failing to mention the OB lies... Ericka replied: "You keep harping on this, but she says clear as can be (in OMvRR) 'The lithotomy position is the worst position because it increases the incidence of fetal distress, the mother pushes the baby uphill, and her pelvis, made flexible by the influence of pregnancy hormones, is fixed in position by the delivery table.' *She also cites several studies and reviews promoting upright positions. *Heck, she even uses your favorite term 'lying' when describing the mismanagement of labor and 'CPD.'" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/e01438b50a337c72 I replied: "Good one Ericka!...NOWHERE (in your quoting of her) does she say lithotomy CLOSES...Nowhere does she say that SEMISITTING closes...Nowhere does she say that OBs are KEEPING birth canals closed the 'extra' 30% when babies get stuck...These are key lies of omission....I will keep harping until she stops lying by omission...Good joke, though!" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/aa16e8654b160ba2 I have not read Henci Goer, I have - I was hoping that Ericka was right - that I somehow missed Henci mentioning that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck. but if Ericka is incorrect about her books, my first thought would be that Ericka had mixed up Henci's book with another, or recalled incorrectly. Yes, and that would be a good first thought. Why would she set out to deliberately deceive the readers of MKP, and how can you prove that? Let's assume for argument's sake that Ericka is just mixed up. Why would prominent childbirth educator HENCI GOER fail to tell readers that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck? Why would Henci fail to mention the Four OB Lies? (They are whoppers!) Here is my exchange with Larry McMahan on this very subject... BEGIN Gastaldo's Feb. 26, 2004 post: Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... * 5. Todd Gastaldo * Feb 26 2004, 3:41*pm * * show options Newsgroups: misc.kids.pregnancy, misc.health.alternative, sci.med From: "Todd Gastaldo" - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:41:03 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 26 2004 3:41*pm Subject: Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... Reply to Author| Forward| Print| Individual Message| Show original| Report Abuse MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion. Yet Henci Goer left this important fact out of her article on OB disinformation about cesareans, oxytocin and prostaglandins, etc. (!) http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...nformation.asp INTENTIONAL SILENCE on a key point = DISINFORMATION Could Henci Goer be engaging in a disinformation campaign (silence on a key point) to help OBs in THEIR disinformation campaign - to HELP OBs COVER UP a fact that could quickly expose and stop the grisly behaviors that OBs are trying to cover-up with their disinformation campaign? How much would the obstetric trade unions and obstetrician-owned malpractice liability insurers pay under the table to experts for the "other side" who intentionally remain silent about a key point? We must ask ourselves... WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins *did* Henci fail to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT that Larry McMahan indicates she has stated elsewhere (see below)... Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%? Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion? Why Henci fail to tell women that it is EASY for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%? Shouldn't the key point mentioned above - the fact that MDs are senselessly closing birth canals - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article about birth until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? I'm asking these questions in reply to Larry McMahan's response to: Henci Goer's mysterious silence about a White Elephant Fact http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2336 I reply further below... Interspersions ##### [Gastaldo quoted Henci Goer writing:] : "We seem to have spent the last few years reeling from assault after assault : on the concept of normal birth. Have you wondered, as I have, what is going : on? Why is our side of the story nowhere to be heard?" : --The Assault on Normal Birth: The OB Disinformation Campaign : by HENCI GOER Midwifery Today, August 2002 : http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...nformation.asp : PREGNANT WOMEN....Most all of Henci Goer's work is EXCELLENT - but I'm Larry McMahan replied: You are damned right about that. *I would say that she has been more effective in taking on the medical obstetric complex and exposing their lies and disinformation than any other single human being! : wondering WHY - in an article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - : she failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT that MDs are routinely closing : birth canals up to 30%... Larry replied: Todd. *I think I can answer this question. *There are several reasons. * 1. *Fewer OBs are doing this than, say, 20 years ago. ### *False. *Semisitting is now routine and closes the birth canal JUST like dorsal - just with more force. *Just the fact that there are more OBs than 20 years ago suggests there are more OBs closing birth canals **with more force** "than, say, 20 years ago." (!) *Semisitting and dorsal are the most common medical delivery positions! * 2. *OBs are doing other disingenuous things, such as waging disinformation * * * campaigns that distort the truth. *These get more of her attention. ### *MOST "other disingenuous things" OBs do - the very things OBs wage disinformation campaigns to cover-up - are affected by OBs closing birth canals! * 3. *It isn't the only questionable OB practice, and perhaps not the most * * * horrific, compared, say to the use of cytotec, early inductions, etc. ### *See ARRGGGHHH! below... * 4. *She has spoken out about position, she just doesn't make it the * * * centerpiece of her campaign like you do. ### *My bet is that Henci has never stated explicitly that OBs are senselessly closing birth canals. *My bet is that she has stated that "squatting opens" - or something like it - but never "semisitting closes"... I would *love* to hear otherwise Larry - but regardless - your explanation does not explain. *I'm STILL (now more than ever) wondering WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - Henci failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT (that you indicate she has stated) that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%... *Why would she fail to STRENGTHEN HER ARGUMENT by mentioning this bizarre obstetric behavior? When there are so many bad things to combat, you have to pick your battles. ### *ARRGGGHHH! Sorry to get E-motional but Henci's "bad things to combat" are MADE WORSE by the "bad thing" called "OBs senselessly closing birth canals." (!) *This is MOST horrific. ### *WHY would she ignore a SIMPLE way to strengthen her own argument?! ### *I'm STILL (now more than ever) wondering WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - Henci failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT (that you indicate she has stated) that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%... ### Larry concluded... I personally give Henci a great deal of credit for picking the right battles to have the most positive effect. *Maybe you should, too. ### Larry, EACH of Henci's "right battles" would only be STRENGTHENED were she to join "my" battle and explicitly state in all of her articles that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%! ### *Again, I pose the following questions... ### COULD Henci Goer be engaging in a disinformation campaign of silence on a key point to help OBs in THEIR disinformation campaign - to HELP COVER UP a fact that could quickly expose and stop the grisly behaviors that OBs are trying to cover-up with their disinformation campaign? ### Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%? ### Why - in an article about cesarean sections - did Henci fail to mention that MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion? ### Why did Henci fail to tell women that it is EASY for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%? ### With MDs senselessly closing birth canals - shouldn't this fact - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article about birth until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? ### *I think 100% of babies would answer with an emphatic YES. ### Sincerely, ### *Todd ### *Dr. Gastaldo ) ### *I'll copy this post to to Henci at PS *Larry didn't respond to a point I made in the post to which he responded... I wrote: Henci isn't the only silent party! See again: ICAN and The Pink Kit: a dark side (Wintergreen is wrong) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2279 And CNMwifery Prof. Helen Varny PROMOTES closing the birth canal! See again: UNM CNMwife: 'If a woman panics at any time...' http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2320 Obstetricians couldn't PAY for better "opponents"/"cesarean opposition." (!) END excerpt of my note to Larry... Larry, how do you account for CNMwifery Prof. Varny ignoring my pleas and PROMOTING closing the birth canal? I urge everyone to put this question to CNMwives everywhere. How hard can it really be to cause MDs and CNMwives to stop closing birth canals? How hard can it really be for experts on "our side" (Henci's phrase) to at least MENTION that MDs (and CNMwives!) are closing birth canals and how EASY it is for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN maximally? Ericka Kammerer wrote on Feb. 25, 2004: "[Henci Goer is] speaking just down the road from me tomorrow..." http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...TF-8&selm=403D... Apparently, Henci is giving a presentation today. Again... How much would the obstetric trade unions and obstetrician-owned malpractice liability insurers pay under the table to experts for the "other side" who intentionally remain silent about a key point? Shouldn't the key point - the fact that MDs are senselessly closing birth canals - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article (every presentation too!) until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? I think 100% of babies would answer with an emphatic YES. Larry may be right about Henci "picking the right battles to have the most positive effect" - but the positive effect of silence about MDs closing birth canals is on OBSTETRICIANS - not babies! Hopefully Henci just FORGOT what Larry says she has stated elsewhere. If so, she will no doubt be GLAD I've copied her - GLAD I've reminded her to finally join a "battle" so pertinent to the battles she has picked (see above)... Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo Again, I'm copying Henci via . Maybe she will see this post (and my previous one) before her presentation in Ericka Kammerer's area tonite (see above)... This post will be archived for global access at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2337 Within 24 hours it will be in the Google groups archive. *Search http://groups.google.com for "Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact" END Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... BACK TO AMY (MUM OF TWO)... I wrote: Larry McMahan employs semantics which help perpetuate the crimes - saying the crimes are mere standard "substandard" care. I agree with most everything in your posts. I agree with what you're trying to achieve. I appreciate this, Amy. But law enforcement is looking the other way. That does NOT mean that obstetricians aren't committing the crimes I allege. Larry has publicly indicated that the obstetric crimes I allege are NOT crimes. With law enforcement looking the other way, Larry is not only not helping to identify the crimes as crimes - he is - without offering substantive critism - encouraging OTHERS to look the other way - thereby FURTHER concealing the crimes. Ericka has LIED in response to my point about prominent childbirth educator Henci Goer failing to address the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30%, etc. Larry and Ericka are engaging in CRAPPY "netiquette" - intellectually dishonest argumentation. Larry and Ericka are sometimes named as having influenced decisions/helped people - their opinions count - they are well-liked - and I am saying - frankly - I don't care whether they are well-liked - CRIME is being committed - law enforcement is looking the other way - and these two well-liked people aren't helping. I don't _always_ agree with the way you do it. Do you want to be a one man army? NO! But if I am the only one calling Ericka and Larry on their bull**** - so be it. I believe 100% of babies would NOT want me "being political" - ignoring their bull****. Rather, I believe 100% would want me calling attention to it - as long as the obstetric crime is ongoing. Do you suppose public opinion of you as an anti-social kook helps your cause? When you ignore Ericka's silence and Larry's blithe "NOT" - and criticize ME as "an anti-social kook" because I won't let it slide - you are contributing to that public perception of me. I'm not - intentionally - criticising you with that statement, and I don't think you're an anti-social kook. I've seen words to that effect bandied about a bit here recently in regards to your posts. Thank you for clarifying. I do not think I am an anti-social kook either. It was nice, though, that you followed up with... FWIW, I think you're a pleasant person and your material is well-researched - *but* you have a knack of alienating people. I have a knack of speaking truth to power to stop power from committing crime - and Ericka and Larry have a knack of behaving as if power has the right to commit crime. People in power around the world commit all kinds of heinous crimes. Perhaps Ericka & Larry have just picked their battles, and that wasn't one of them? Larry said it is NOT crime when obstetricians lie to women and slice their vaginas. Larry embellished with standard "substandard" care nonsense. And regarding your notion that "Ericka & Larry have just picked their battles" - check out Larry's FURTHER nonsense above: Larry pretends that pointing out the Four OB Lies would detract from Henci Goer's arguments! That is pure poppycock - pointing out the Four OB Lies would only strengthen Henci Goer's arguments. That doesn't, in my opinion, constitute the condoning of the rights of those in power to commit crimes. Failing to IDENTIFY crime as crime does not help solve the problem - law enforcement looking the other way. Larry could have remained silent. Larry chose instead to say it is NOT crime. Since the crime is ongoing. Since the crime is related to OTHER crimes - i.e. - closing birth canals up to 30% and obstetricians lying about THAT... Since there are unexplained baby deaths, etc. Since women should not have to ASK for the "extra" up to 30%. Since most women don't KNOW to ask... I keep identifying the crime. Larry's nonsense helps me do that. In that sense (and that sense only) I appreciate Larry's nonsense. It would be better though if both Larry and Ericka acknowledged the obvious obstetric crimes and joined me in urging EVERYONE to do so. Obstetricians are LYING and babies are DYING. Again, to read the Four OB Lies (they are whoppers)... See Dents in babies' skulls (and SJ Doc) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897 Law enforcement cannot keep looking the other way forever - and the more people who are publicly identifying the crimes as crimes will speed an end to the bizarre law enforcement behavior. As always, I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical students, MDs are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies. Thanks for reading everyone. Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo Hillsboro, Oregon USA
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September 29th 05, 04:07 PM
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GOOD ONE ERICKA! (ERICKA'S SORDID HENCI GOER JOKE - AGAIN)...
Amy (Mum of Two) wrote: Lying is a strong word. I think to prove that Ericka lied, you'd have to prove that she was consciously aware that the statement she made was incorrect at the time she made it. I don't see how you could do that. I have not read Henci Goer, but if Ericka is incorrect about her books, my first thought would be that Ericka had mixed up Henci's book with another, or recalled incorrectly. Why would she set out to deliberately deceive the readers of MKP, and how can you prove that? Ericka Kammerer replied: No, Ericka is quite clear on what Henci Goer has written, and anyone short of a two year old would clearly understand that Henci promotes optimal birthing positions. But, because she doesn't use precisely the words that Todd prefers and because she doesn't go around screeching about crimes and calling people names, and because she doesn't say it on every page of every book or article she writes, he refuses to acknowledge that she does so. Todd is free to call that "lying" if he chooses, but I don't have to play along. Best wishes, Ericka Arrggghhh. See Ericka's quote from Henci's book below. Henci Goer does NOT say that semisitting closes the birth canal up to 30% and that obstetricians KEEP women semisitting (keep birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30%) when babies get stuck! Ericka takes me to task for "screeching"... I "screech" about this obvious obstetric crime because it IS a crime. BABIES "screech" into electronic fetal heart rate monitors - and sometimes die unexplained deaths - with women totally unaware that their birth canals are being senselessly closed the "extra" up to 30%. This is so sad. Arrggghhhh. Todd PS Here is my recent post - which includes Larry McMahan's standard "substandard" care nonsense - and his further nonsense - about Henci Goer.... PREGNANT WOMEN: Obstetricians are senselessly closing birth canals up to 30% and it is easy for you to allow your birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%. See Dents in babies' skulls (and SJ Doc) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897 BABIES AND LARRY McMAHAN'S NONSENSE Standard care cannot be "substandard"... Larry pretends that obstetric crime is NOT occurring (NOT is Larry's emphasis) - even though obstetricians are lying and slicing vaginas en masse. In fact, obvious battery is occurring. ERICKA'S HENCI GOER JOKE - AGAIN Maybe Amy (Mum of Two) is right - maybe Ericka is just mixed up (see below). I kind of hope that's the case - but I doubt it. Maybe Larry is just mixed up too... The question is: Why is prominent childbirth educator HENCI GOER silent about obstetricians closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck? Henci would STRENGTHEN her arguments by stating these simple facts - yet Larry pretends otherwise - further nonsense from Larry... See below. AMY (MUM OF TWO) WROTE: I think your original post was helpful and polite. As usual, the thread got way off track and descended into personal attacks. Mind you, I'm not the usenet posting police, so I'm going to shut up now. I REPLIED: I am not the usenet posting police either - but I say in my usenet posting that obstetricians ARE committing major crimes against mothers and babies. Larry McMahan says in his usenet posting that obstetricians are NOT committing major crimes against mothers and babies. AMY NOW SAYS: On a technicality, going by current USA law and the enforcement of said law, Larry is probably right. On moral terms, you're right. Morally, Larry may agree with you - I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him. That's why I find arguing the point a little senseless. Larry has indicated that no crime is being committed. Obstetricians are fraudulently telling women that their vaginas are being sliced to prevent severe tears - when the evidence is that episiotomized women suffer 50X more severe tears than women who are not episiotomized... Obstetricians are fraudulently claiming to be slicing vaginas to open birth canals - even as birth canals are being senselessly closed up to 30%... It's obvious crime - obvious battery. The "technicality" - law enforcement failing to enforce the crime - does NOT mean a crime is not being committed. Larry is simply wrong. I'm assuming that Larry is referring to more than "just" the mass vagina slicing to open birth canals even as obstetricians close birth canals the "extra" up to 30%. Here it is 2005 and obstetricians are still fraudulently telling women they are preventing severe tears. Ignoring research - slicing vaginas and telling lies instead of obtaining informed consent - that is MASS BATTERY. The ONLY thing sustaining it is law enforcement looking the other way. Law enforcement is looking the other way because LOTS of people are failing to identify the obvious crime as crime. Larry could have simply remained silent. Instead he decided to state affirmatively that crime is NOT occurring. He said it was substandard care, didn't he? Thank you for bring up this aspect of Larry's error. As you note: Unfortunately, at many hospitals and in parts of the USA that care probably *is* standard. I believe calling it substandard may be an understatement, but it's accurate. Calling something that is standard "substandard" is error. If it's standard, then there's a real problem with what we're setting our standards by. If it's standard care, then it's not substandard care. Larry is indirectly aiding and abetting in the senseless mass vagina slicing. PMSL! I know this is a serious subject, but do you realise how funny that line looks? I don't know what PMSL means - but as long as people fail to identify obvious crime - law enforcement will continue to look the other way - and obstetricians will continue to commit it. MKP/misc.kids.pregnancy is a usenet newsgroup NOT a private list. People have the option of posting anonymously if they wish. Of course. But IMO manners have a place here, as they do in most public forums. Perhaps you could consider a career in politics? Politics is part of the problem. Law enforcement is engaging in foot-dragging politics as women are assaulted en masse; and Larry is pretending that law enforcement foot-dragging politics means that no crime is occurring. I was being facetious and mildly insulting. LOL! Insulting me after saying "Manners have a place here." Larry snipped my correction along with my mention of his bizarre "obstetric crime is substandard care" came - and jumped in with his concern for netiquette. I don't think usenetters always snip with the intent of being intellectually dishonest. Larry snipped my mention of his intellectual dishonesty - his standard "substandard" care nonsense - then embellished with further intellectual dishonesty by tooting the "netiquette" bandwagon horn. You just supported his standard "substandard" care nonsense. If care is standard, it cannot be substandard. Sometimes they snip because it's just too darn long for everyone to re-read. Re-reading is not necessary. With the quote-back system one can QUICKLY scroll and read interspersions in the original full text. The original post is still there for others to read. I sometimes snip indiscriminately if the part snipped is irrrelevant to the point I'm replying to, as you can see. Larry snipping my criticism of his standard "substandard" care nonsense was either indiscriminate snipping - or - as I am assuming - it was quite discriminate - he wanted to toot the "netiquette" bandwagon horn to cover-up HIS bad "netiquette" (intellectual dishonesty) - thereby engaging in further intellectual dishonesty. I say again: Larry is blithely calling massive obstetric crimes against babies mere standard "substandard" care. So far as I can see, the only leg Larry has to stand on is the sordid fact that law enforcement is failing to enforce. As Steve B. Harris, MD arrogantly notes: "Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no crime. These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to you." http://groups.google.com/group/misc....866f3384801ae9 Steve may be arrogant, but he may also be an arrogant correct asshole. I don't think there is any question that Steve B. Harris, MD is an arrogant asshole. He is also committing crime. He acknowledges crime is being committed against children and fails to report it. Failure to report child abuse is a child abuse crime because it can perpetuate child abuse. Larry is similarly engaging in failing to report child abuse - but unlike Steve, I don't think Larry is mandated to report it. The fact that [Steve B. Harris, MD is] correct *is* the problem in this case. We agree to this point. And as far as I can see, it also makes Larry technically correct. No, Larry is not saying what Steve B. Harris, MD is saying. Rather, Larry is saying that the mass vagina slicing is NOT crime - PERIOD. Larry's standard "substandard" care nonsense embellishes his false assertion. That is the problem! No enforcement! See above. Ericka publicly lied - said that Henci Goer discusses in her books the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up. Lying is a strong word. I think to prove that Ericka lied, you'd have to prove that she was consciously aware that the statement she made was incorrect at the time she made it. I don't see how you could do that. Ericka is either stupid or she is lying/intentionally deceiving. When I noted that Henci is failing to mention the OB lies... Ericka replied: "You keep harping on this, but she says clear as can be (in OMvRR) 'The lithotomy position is the worst position because it increases the incidence of fetal distress, the mother pushes the baby uphill, and her pelvis, made flexible by the influence of pregnancy hormones, is fixed in position by the delivery table.' *She also cites several studies and reviews promoting upright positions. *Heck, she even uses your favorite term 'lying' when describing the mismanagement of labor and 'CPD.'" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/e01438b50a337c72 I replied: "Good one Ericka!...NOWHERE (in your quoting of her) does she say lithotomy CLOSES...Nowhere does she say that SEMISITTING closes...Nowhere does she say that OBs are KEEPING birth canals closed the 'extra' 30% when babies get stuck...These are key lies of omission....I will keep harping until she stops lying by omission...Good joke, though!" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/aa16e8654b160ba2 I have not read Henci Goer, I have - I was hoping that Ericka was right - that I somehow missed Henci mentioning that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck. but if Ericka is incorrect about her books, my first thought would be that Ericka had mixed up Henci's book with another, or recalled incorrectly. Yes, and that would be a good first thought. Why would she set out to deliberately deceive the readers of MKP, and how can you prove that? Let's assume for argument's sake that Ericka is just mixed up. Why would prominent childbirth educator HENCI GOER fail to tell readers that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck? Why would Henci fail to mention the Four OB Lies? (They are whoppers!) Here is my exchange with Larry McMahan on this very subject... BEGIN Gastaldo's Feb. 26, 2004 post: Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... * 5. Todd Gastaldo * Feb 26 2004, 3:41*pm * * show options Newsgroups: misc.kids.pregnancy, misc.health.alternative, sci.med From: "Todd Gastaldo" - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:41:03 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 26 2004 3:41*pm Subject: Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... Reply to Author| Forward| Print| Individual Message| Show original| Report Abuse MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion. Yet Henci Goer left this important fact out of her article on OB disinformation about cesareans, oxytocin and prostaglandins, etc. (!) http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...nformation.asp INTENTIONAL SILENCE on a key point = DISINFORMATION Could Henci Goer be engaging in a disinformation campaign (silence on a key point) to help OBs in THEIR disinformation campaign - to HELP OBs COVER UP a fact that could quickly expose and stop the grisly behaviors that OBs are trying to cover-up with their disinformation campaign? How much would the obstetric trade unions and obstetrician-owned malpractice liability insurers pay under the table to experts for the "other side" who intentionally remain silent about a key point? We must ask ourselves... WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins *did* Henci fail to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT that Larry McMahan indicates she has stated elsewhere (see below)... Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%? Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion? Why Henci fail to tell women that it is EASY for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%? Shouldn't the key point mentioned above - the fact that MDs are senselessly closing birth canals - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article about birth until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? I'm asking these questions in reply to Larry McMahan's response to: Henci Goer's mysterious silence about a White Elephant Fact http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2336 I reply further below... Interspersions ##### [Gastaldo quoted Henci Goer writing:] : "We seem to have spent the last few years reeling from assault after assault : on the concept of normal birth. Have you wondered, as I have, what is going : on? Why is our side of the story nowhere to be heard?" : --The Assault on Normal Birth: The OB Disinformation Campaign : by HENCI GOER Midwifery Today, August 2002 : http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...nformation.asp : PREGNANT WOMEN....Most all of Henci Goer's work is EXCELLENT - but I'm Larry McMahan replied: You are damned right about that. *I would say that she has been more effective in taking on the medical obstetric complex and exposing their lies and disinformation than any other single human being! : wondering WHY - in an article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - : she failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT that MDs are routinely closing : birth canals up to 30%... Larry replied: Todd. *I think I can answer this question. *There are several reasons. * 1. *Fewer OBs are doing this than, say, 20 years ago. ### *False. *Semisitting is now routine and closes the birth canal JUST like dorsal - just with more force. *Just the fact that there are more OBs than 20 years ago suggests there are more OBs closing birth canals **with more force** "than, say, 20 years ago." (!) *Semisitting and dorsal are the most common medical delivery positions! * 2. *OBs are doing other disingenuous things, such as waging disinformation * * * campaigns that distort the truth. *These get more of her attention. ### *MOST "other disingenuous things" OBs do - the very things OBs wage disinformation campaigns to cover-up - are affected by OBs closing birth canals! * 3. *It isn't the only questionable OB practice, and perhaps not the most * * * horrific, compared, say to the use of cytotec, early inductions, etc. ### *See ARRGGGHHH! below... * 4. *She has spoken out about position, she just doesn't make it the * * * centerpiece of her campaign like you do. ### *My bet is that Henci has never stated explicitly that OBs are senselessly closing birth canals. *My bet is that she has stated that "squatting opens" - or something like it - but never "semisitting closes"... I would *love* to hear otherwise Larry - but regardless - your explanation does not explain. *I'm STILL (now more than ever) wondering WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - Henci failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT (that you indicate she has stated) that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%... *Why would she fail to STRENGTHEN HER ARGUMENT by mentioning this bizarre obstetric behavior? When there are so many bad things to combat, you have to pick your battles. ### *ARRGGGHHH! Sorry to get E-motional but Henci's "bad things to combat" are MADE WORSE by the "bad thing" called "OBs senselessly closing birth canals." (!) *This is MOST horrific. ### *WHY would she ignore a SIMPLE way to strengthen her own argument?! ### *I'm STILL (now more than ever) wondering WHY - in her article about cesareans, oxytocin, prostaglandins - Henci failed to mention THE WHITE ELEPHANT FACT (that you indicate she has stated) that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%... ### Larry concluded... I personally give Henci a great deal of credit for picking the right battles to have the most positive effect. *Maybe you should, too. ### Larry, EACH of Henci's "right battles" would only be STRENGTHENED were she to join "my" battle and explicitly state in all of her articles that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%! ### *Again, I pose the following questions... ### COULD Henci Goer be engaging in a disinformation campaign of silence on a key point to help OBs in THEIR disinformation campaign - to HELP COVER UP a fact that could quickly expose and stop the grisly behaviors that OBs are trying to cover-up with their disinformation campaign? ### Why did Henci fail to mention that MDs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%? ### Why - in an article about cesarean sections - did Henci fail to mention that MDs are CAUSING cephalopelvic disproportion then performing cesareans BEcause of cephalopelvic disproportion? ### Why did Henci fail to tell women that it is EASY for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%? ### With MDs senselessly closing birth canals - shouldn't this fact - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article about birth until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? ### *I think 100% of babies would answer with an emphatic YES. ### Sincerely, ### *Todd ### *Dr. Gastaldo ) ### *I'll copy this post to to Henci at PS *Larry didn't respond to a point I made in the post to which he responded... I wrote: Henci isn't the only silent party! See again: ICAN and The Pink Kit: a dark side (Wintergreen is wrong) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2279 And CNMwifery Prof. Helen Varny PROMOTES closing the birth canal! See again: UNM CNMwife: 'If a woman panics at any time...' http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2320 Obstetricians couldn't PAY for better "opponents"/"cesarean opposition." (!) END excerpt of my note to Larry... Larry, how do you account for CNMwifery Prof. Varny ignoring my pleas and PROMOTING closing the birth canal? I urge everyone to put this question to CNMwives everywhere. How hard can it really be to cause MDs and CNMwives to stop closing birth canals? How hard can it really be for experts on "our side" (Henci's phrase) to at least MENTION that MDs (and CNMwives!) are closing birth canals and how EASY it is for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN maximally? Ericka Kammerer wrote on Feb. 25, 2004: "[Henci Goer is] speaking just down the road from me tomorrow..." http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...TF-8&selm=403D... Apparently, Henci is giving a presentation today. Again... How much would the obstetric trade unions and obstetrician-owned malpractice liability insurers pay under the table to experts for the "other side" who intentionally remain silent about a key point? Shouldn't the key point - the fact that MDs are senselessly closing birth canals - and how to OPEN the birth canal - be in EVERY article (every presentation too!) until MDs stop their bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior? I think 100% of babies would answer with an emphatic YES. Larry may be right about Henci "picking the right battles to have the most positive effect" - but the positive effect of silence about MDs closing birth canals is on OBSTETRICIANS - not babies! Hopefully Henci just FORGOT what Larry says she has stated elsewhere. If so, she will no doubt be GLAD I've copied her - GLAD I've reminded her to finally join a "battle" so pertinent to the battles she has picked (see above)... Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo Again, I'm copying Henci via . Maybe she will see this post (and my previous one) before her presentation in Ericka Kammerer's area tonite (see above)... This post will be archived for global access at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2337 Within 24 hours it will be in the Google groups archive. *Search http://groups.google.com for "Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact" END Larry McMahan and Henci Goer and The White Elephant Fact... BACK TO AMY (MUM OF TWO)... I wrote: Larry McMahan employs semantics which help perpetuate the crimes - saying the crimes are mere standard "substandard" care. I agree with most everything in your posts. I agree with what you're trying to achieve. I appreciate this, Amy. But law enforcement is looking the other way. That does NOT mean that obstetricians aren't committing the crimes I allege. Larry has publicly indicated that the obstetric crimes I allege are NOT crimes. With law enforcement looking the other way, Larry is not only not helping to identify the crimes as crimes - he is - without offering substantive critism - encouraging OTHERS to look the other way - thereby FURTHER concealing the crimes. Ericka has LIED in response to my point about prominent childbirth educator Henci Goer failing to address the fact that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30%, etc. Larry and Ericka are engaging in CRAPPY "netiquette" - intellectually dishonest argumentation. Larry and Ericka are sometimes named as having influenced decisions/helped people - their opinions count - they are well-liked - and I am saying - frankly - I don't care whether they are well-liked - CRIME is being committed - law enforcement is looking the other way - and these two well-liked people aren't helping. I don't _always_ agree with the way you do it. Do you want to be a one man army? NO! But if I am the only one calling Ericka and Larry on their bull**** - so be it. I believe 100% of babies would NOT want me "being political" - ignoring their bull****. Rather, I believe 100% would want me calling attention to it - as long as the obstetric crime is ongoing. Do you suppose public opinion of you as an anti-social kook helps your cause? When you ignore Ericka's silence and Larry's blithe "NOT" - and criticize ME as "an anti-social kook" because I won't let it slide - you are contributing to that public perception of me. I'm not - intentionally - criticising you with that statement, and I don't think you're an anti-social kook. I've seen words to that effect bandied about a bit here recently in regards to your posts. Thank you for clarifying. I do not think I am an anti-social kook either. It was nice, though, that you followed up with... FWIW, I think you're a pleasant person and your material is well-researched - *but* you have a knack of alienating people. I have a knack of speaking truth to power to stop power from committing crime - and Ericka and Larry have a knack of behaving as if power has the right to commit crime. People in power around the world commit all kinds of heinous crimes. Perhaps Ericka & Larry have just picked their battles, and that wasn't one of them? Larry said it is NOT crime when obstetricians lie to women and slice their vaginas. Larry embellished with standard "substandard" care nonsense. And regarding your notion that "Ericka & Larry have just picked their battles" - check out Larry's FURTHER nonsense above: Larry pretends that pointing out the Four OB Lies would detract from Henci Goer's arguments! That is pure poppycock - pointing out the Four OB Lies would only strengthen Henci Goer's arguments. That doesn't, in my opinion, constitute the condoning of the rights of those in power to commit crimes. Failing to IDENTIFY crime as crime does not help solve the problem - law enforcement looking the other way. Larry could have remained silent. Larry chose instead to say it is NOT crime. Since the crime is ongoing. Since the crime is related to OTHER crimes - i.e. - closing birth canals up to 30% and obstetricians lying about THAT... Since there are unexplained baby deaths, etc. Since women should not have to ASK for the "extra" up to 30%. Since most women don't KNOW to ask... I keep identifying the crime. Larry's nonsense helps me do that. In that sense (and that sense only) I appreciate Larry's nonsense. It would be better though if both Larry and Ericka acknowledged the obvious obstetric crimes and joined me in urging EVERYONE to do so. Obstetricians are LYING and babies are DYING. Again, to read the Four OB Lies (they are whoppers)... See Dents in babies' skulls (and SJ Doc) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897 Law enforcement cannot keep looking the other way forever - and the more people who are publicly identifying the crimes as crimes will speed an end to the bizarre law enforcement behavior. As always, I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical students, MDs are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies. Thanks for reading everyone. Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo Hillsboro, Oregon USA
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