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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 9th 03, 05:13 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris"
wrote:



Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Ray Drouillard wrote:
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000
[...]
The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly
prohibit all forms of violence against children,
however light, within the family, in schools and
in other institutions where children might be placed."
[...]
Paul:
For more context,
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and
the report by the Canadian delegation
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm

I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of
action against the corporal punishment of children in the home
other than outrageously objectionable.


You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture,
your children at your whim?

Fancy that.

It seems to me a prime
example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as
scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly
address,


On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies
show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and
if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?

and then bolster social engineering programs with
"studies" that do not show what they purport to show.


"Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children
using physical and psychological pain.

Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the
woodshed.

Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how
to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and
humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to
each other about what you are doing.

In
my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking
in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour
of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of
adults.


Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of
those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report
they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the
same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an
outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was
escalated to injury.

The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from
being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense.

Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less
likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a
child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs
of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child.

It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly
right to oppose this Convention.


What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to
liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either
stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted
because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other
conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do
NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They
spank.


Mike Morris
)


Have a good one, Mike.

Kane
  #2  
Old October 9th 03, 05:52 PM
Ray Drouillard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris"
wrote:



Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Ray Drouillard wrote:
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000
[...]
The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly
prohibit all forms of violence against children,
however light, within the family, in schools and
in other institutions where children might be placed."
[...]
Paul:
For more context,
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and
the report by the Canadian delegation
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm

I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of
action against the corporal punishment of children in the home
other than outrageously objectionable.


You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture,
your children at your whim?

Fancy that.

It seems to me a prime
example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as
scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly
address,


On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies
show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and
if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?

and then bolster social engineering programs with
"studies" that do not show what they purport to show.


"Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children
using physical and psychological pain.

Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the
woodshed.

Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how
to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and
humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to
each other about what you are doing.

In
my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking
in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour
of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of
adults.


Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of
those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report
they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the
same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an
outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was
escalated to injury.

The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from
being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense.

Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less
likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a
child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs
of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child.

It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly
right to oppose this Convention.


What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to
liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either
stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted
because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other
conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do
NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They
spank.


Mike Morris
)


Have a good one, Mike.

Kane



I have seen the social engineer types massage their data. Statistics
are easy to wield in a deceptive manner, and most people don't have the
skill to figure out how they are being deceived.

Kids who are raised without proper discipline end up being rotten
adults. One must only look around to see examples.



Of course, the real answer can be found in the "user's manual" that our
maker gave to us:


Pro 13:24 One who spares the rod hates his son, But one who loves him is
careful to discipline him.

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child: The rod of
discipline drives it far from him.

Pro 23:13 Don't withhold correction from a child. If you punish him with
the rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 Punish him with the rod, And save his soul from Sheol.

Pro 29:15 The rod of correction gives wisdom, But a child left to
himself causes shame to his mother.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he
will not depart from it.




Ray



  #4  
Old October 9th 03, 06:37 PM
Michael S. Morris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking




Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Ray Drouillard wrote:
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000

[...]
The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly
prohibit all forms of violence against children,
however light, within the family, in schools and
in other institutions where children might be placed."
[...]
Paul:
For more context,
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and
the report by the Canadian delegation
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm
I said:
I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of
action against the corporal punishment of children in the home
other than outrageously objectionable.
Kane:
You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture,
your children at your whim?

No one I believe said *anything* about bullying, humiliating,
injuring, torturing or indeed *anything* about *at my whim*.
We were talking spanking, which has zero to do with any of the
above.

Kane:
Fancy that.

Yeah, fancy it.

I said:
It seems to me a prime
example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as
scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly
address,
Kane:
On the contrary.

On the contrary, on the contrary. This is absolutely unaddressable
by science. You cannot possibly control hundreds or thousands
of possibly important variables. If no control then no science.

If you want to provide a cite to a study, I would be happy to critique
it directly.

Kane:
Science does address this issue.

No, it does not address this issue at all. What addresses
this issue is ideology. And, well, my ideology is a better
(as in objectively better) than yours.

Kane:
Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and
distract from learning tasks,

This is the fallacy that measurement of something equals science.

Kane:
and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?

Simple, to punish my children for disobeying a rule.
Precisely so that they learn obedience to important
commands, precisely for their own safety when they
are of an age too young to reason about it. It also
is muchly to be preferred to the "time-out" in that
forgiveness and forgetting are immediate. Lesson
learned. Case closed. We don't do that again. The
time out strateches the whole thing into a drama, with
no clear end and no clear lesson taught. And that is
the problem. You can always tell a child which has not been
disciplined. He's precisely the sort of child the "childproofing"
one's house, and the schools and the daycares notion got
started for---the idea that the children cannot be expected to
behave themselves and opbey simple safety rules, and instead
the world needs to be made safe for them.

I said:
and then bolster social engineering programs with
"studies" that do not show what they purport to show.
Kane:
"Social engineering" is what YOU do when you
proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain.

I spank my children, or did at a young age, in order to
demand obedience at that age. For their safety and in
order to give them good ethical habits of respect for other people
and for other people's property.

Kane:
Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the
woodshed.

My children do have the freedom to disagree with and oppose me
as soon as they reach an age of reason.

Kane:
Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how
to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and
humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to
each other about what you are doing.

The issue is whether you actually do teach the children so
that the child, for instance, fastens his seat belt as a matter
of habit, and stops upon command when he is about to run out
into the street, or reaches by habit for his parent's hand in
a supermarket parking lot. These things are not reasoned out
with a young child, is the problem, and that is a problem that was
well understood and addressed by the ancients. Hence, you begin
in authority and discipline, you inculcate good habits, and the child
grows into free choice with a default mode of good habits to
sustain him and keep him safe while he grows.

I said:
In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking
in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour
of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of
adults.
Kane:
Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of
those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report
they have been spanked.

No, I think I am completely right. The number used to be about 100%.
The leftish social activists have tried to equate spanking with abuse,
and have consequently tried to shame it underground. As a result,
many parents don't spank except as a last resort, by which time they
are angrier and spank less consistently and in a less controlled way.

Kane:
Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly
greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an
outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was
escalated to injury.

Sorry, but your statistic neither shows this (since the survey surveys
adults)
and there is no evidence that abuse comes from spanking.

Kane:
The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from
being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense.

Nope. It comes from kids not being disciplined and, consequently,
disrespecting the property and person of other people. My wife,
a veterinarian, has story upon story to tell of children coming
into the exam room with parents and Fido, and children making noise and
climbing all over mega-expensive equipment while parent is trying to
tell vet what is wrong with Fido. And, interrupting every moment or
two to tell kids to stop doing whatever it is they are doing, and the
kids just ignoring the command. This comes from no discipline. No
expectation that good behaviour *will* happen or else.

Kane:
Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less
likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a
child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs

of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child.

I seriously doubt it, and doubt you can give *any* study to show it.

I said:
It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly
right to oppose this Convention.
Kane:
What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to

liberals?

Sorry, I do not use "liberal" to mean "social progressives". I am liberal.

Kane:
I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either
stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted
because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other
conservatives that agree with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do
NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They
spank.

A majority spank at some point or the other. The issue is whether it
is wrong and shameful to do so, so that spanking ends up being associated
with last-ditch frustration and anger. Or whether it is a line of first
resort,
in which case it is controlled and immediate and, well, attention-getting.

Kane:
Have a good one, Mike.

You, too, Kane.

Mike Morris
)







  #5  
Old October 9th 03, 07:26 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:52:54 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris"
wrote:



Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Ray Drouillard wrote:
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000
[...]
The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly
prohibit all forms of violence against children,
however light, within the family, in schools and
in other institutions where children might be placed."
[...]
Paul:
For more context,
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and
the report by the Canadian delegation
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm

I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of
action against the corporal punishment of children in the home
other than outrageously objectionable.


You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture,
your children at your whim?

Fancy that.

It seems to me a prime
example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as
scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly
address,


On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan

studies
show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks,

and
if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?

and then bolster social engineering programs with
"studies" that do not show what they purport to show.


"Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach

children
using physical and psychological pain.

Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the
woodshed.

Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn

how
to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and
humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to
each other about what you are doing.

In
my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking
in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour
of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of
adults.


Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of
those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens

report
they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the
same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is

an
outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so

was
escalated to injury.

The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from
being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense.

Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less
likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a
child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows

signs
of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child.

It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly
right to oppose this Convention.


What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive

to
liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either
stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted
because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of

other
conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who

do
NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They
spank.


Mike Morris
)


Have a good one, Mike.

Kane



I have seen the social engineer types massage their data. Statistics
are easy to wield in a deceptive manner, and most people don't have

the
skill to figure out how they are being deceived.


I do not need social engineer's to be able to tell what hurts and
distracts a child from learning. Though I do tend to understand as
well the results of brain scan technology.

Last I heard they were neurological researchers, not social
researchers.

Kids who are raised without proper discipline end up being rotten
adults. One must only look around to see examples.


I do. I see them all the time. Spanked. Humiliated. Treated like
possessions. They turn out very badly.

On the other hand the hundreds of children I've known whose parents
either never spanked, or reformed and became loving parents, grow up
responsible citizens, and unavailable for demigogs to exploit.

This last item, the desire to weild power over others, is what ****es
you people off when we escape you and help our children escape.

Of course, the real answer


"real answer?" As in I have all the scientific knowledge to support my
claims, or is it, "I have the right to express my opinion?"

can be found in the "user's manual" that our
maker gave to us:


My mother and father didn't give me a users manual. Though many of my
caregivers gave me examples that fly in the face of the Christian crap
you are about to shovel.



Pro 13:24 One who spares the rod hates his son, But one who loves him

is
careful to discipline him.


Unfortunately for you I was well trained as a Christian, and consider
myself in recovery for the last 45 years or so. You are citing the OT.
Are you unaware of the Good News in the NT?

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child: The rod of
discipline drives it far from him.


The son of the ruler who spoke such cruelty was run out of his country
for his cruelty to his subjects. Solomon was no favorite of his people
either. He'd have had his guards slice the child in two had the real
mother not given up her child for it's life. I'm sure you, OT lover,
think that was just grand.

Pro 23:13 Don't withhold correction from a child. If you punish him

with
the rod, he will not die.


Sometimes.

Pro 23:14 Punish him with the rod, And save his soul from Sheol.


So he can grow up to become yet another beast with a poorly developed
conscience.

Pro 29:15 The rod of correction gives wisdom, But a child left to
himself causes shame to his mother.


"Shebet." Look it up.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old

he
will not depart from it.


I'd rather NOT have a world run by people that were shamed,
humiliated, raised up in pain, to rule the world. But as it is I am
stuck with quite a few of them right now. I'm looking forward to you
savages being displaced eventually with kind and loving people who
produce responsible leaders and decision makers.

Since about 90% of the people in this country claim they were spanked
as children it seems your thinking is somewhat screwed up.

As was Solomon's.

He was a tyrant and a fool who treated his successor, as a child, so
badly he could not rule because of his cruelty.

Spanking and other forms of 'discipline" which a not true teaching at
all produce such. Dangerous, angry, conscience disabled humans with a
strong desire for vengence but fear of their parent. So they visit
their vengence, as you appear to want to do, on those smaller and
weaker than themselves.

Those who are not cowards, even if they were spanked, rise up against
the nonsense you preach, and overcome their hate and find how to love.

Sorry about you.

Ray

...of sunshine, I presume?

Kane
  #6  
Old October 9th 03, 07:41 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:36:03 -0500, (Bruce D. Ray)
wrote:

In article ,
(Kane) wrote:

{big snip}

On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan

studies
show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks,

and
if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?


As a research scientist whose projects have recently been
expanded to include functional MRI studies in humans,


Being new to the field you'll want to do some catching up.

http://anon.user.anonymizer.com/http...es%22+learning

I
find this remark about brain scan studies and distractions
quite interesting.


I hope so.

Please provide your citations on this.
In particular, please include in these citations of human
subject data.


You can do your own provision of citations when you have done your
homework. See the URL above.

Again and again in studies on learning, using brain scan imagery,
anything that distracts creates more learning difficulty.

And that was known long before imaging technology uncovered it. But
social scientists weren't believed by some, apparently.

So professor, unless you are one of those strange thinking error
impaired folks that believes that pain and humiliation wonderfully
concentrates one's focus I think you'd have to admit that spanking is
a distraction from learning, not an aid to it.

All pain and humiliation does is wonderfully concentrate one's
attention on the pain and humiliation, and the lessons in that can be
very bad for the child and the rest of us when he or she becomes an
adult.

Pain can stop a behavior, something we want the child not to learn,
but it is a poor teacher of what behavior is wanted, and the side
effects aren't worth it.

Kane
  #7  
Old October 9th 03, 10:04 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:24:00 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"MaG Douglas" wrote in message
...
Come on Ray... Let's remember to trim out the crossposted fat!

MaG


Sorry. I didn't notice that it was cross-posted.

looking at previous posts

It looks like citizen Kane is engaging in troll-like behavior.


`Fraid not. Crossposting is an exceptable action if the ngs are
relevant to the post. Which were not?

Each has something to do with the content our of thread. Methinks it's
you that have trouble with being called on your tripe and are so
uncomfortable you don't wish it known any further than you can help.

I'm not inhibited by your problem.

And you don't know what a troll is. All you need do it hit that
pointer on my name and you'll see I have posted for years on this same
subject.

That is not what trolls do.

Your understanding of the meaning of "troll" is on a par with your
understanding of children's needs and teaching them properly.

The former mistake costs neither you or I, but the latter is going to
come back and bite you in the butt if you don't start looking for ways
to bury your head further up your behind.

Can you say, "Teenager," Ray?


Ray


And you have my name wrong. It's not "cane" or "cain" it's Kane.

It's pronounced nothing like the former.

Basically, Ray, you are a coward. You are afraid to defend your brutal
practice of spanking in a larger arena so try to confine it to this
small one where you know there will be plenty of supporters.

Cowardice over your ignorance, and cowardice in child rearing
practices.

Spankers are doomed, Ray. If we don't stop it in this generation we
will in the next. If you don't volunteer to learn better eventually
the cure that even I don't want will come into play. The law will stop
you.

So tell us, Ray, why do little children defy their parents?

Kane
  #8  
Old October 10th 03, 04:08 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:53:15 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:

It looks like one of those crusaders who google for certain key words
and start stirring up the mud.


No, actually I've been a serial lurker to this ng for some time now.
And I do think it unwise of you to equate your comments and opinions
about spanking with "mud," don't you.

I wonder if Kane has a standard rant
that is saved to his or her hard drive.


No, it's spontaneous, though I do have some sources and citations with
quotes archived. It's a pain to have to wade through the piles of
dross of the spanking enthusiasts to once again rub their noses in
their nonsense.

I wonder what made YOU think of that particular tactic though? I never
have.

Hmmmmm....?

I note that after the first exchange, when you can no longer answer
with your denial of the pain and humiliation of the child you move
right to trying to kill the messenger.

Coward.


Everybody loves.....

Ray


mond.

Me too. I'd love you even more if you'd stop defending the pounding of
children and pretending it is a loving spanking.

I hope you reform. May I point you to:

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org

"Treat children as you would have them
treat you when they're grown."

For they very well might.

The New Testament freed you. Why not accept it?

Kane



"MaG Douglas" wrote in message
...
Trip Trap, Trip Trap went the middle goat's hooves on the bridge.
"Who's that crossing my bridge?" asked the _ _ _ _ _.

Ho hum... another bit of crossposted tripe.

MaG


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris"
wrote:



Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Ray Drouillard wrote:
Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in

Geneva

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000
[...]
The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly
prohibit all forms of violence against children,
however light, within the family, in schools and
in other institutions where children might be placed."
[...]
Paul:
For more context,
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and
the report by the Canadian delegation
http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm

I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of
action against the corporal punishment of children in the home
other than outrageously objectionable.

You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure,

torture,
your children at your whim?

Fancy that.

It seems to me a prime
example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as
scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly
address,

On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan

studies
show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks,

and
if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for?

and then bolster social engineering programs with
"studies" that do not show what they purport to show.

"Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach

children
using physical and psychological pain.

Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind

the
woodshed.

Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn

how
to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and
humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie

to
each other about what you are doing.

In
my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking
in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad

behaviour
of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of
adults.

Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some

of
those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens

report
they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least

the
same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse

is
an
outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so

was
escalated to injury.

The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from
being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your

nonsense.

Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less
likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that

a
child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows

signs
of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child.

It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly
right to oppose this Convention.

What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is

exclusive
to
liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank

either
stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted
because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of

other
conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who

do
NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They
spank.


Mike Morris
)

Have a good one, Mike.

Kane




  #9  
Old October 10th 03, 05:09 AM
Jon Houts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


On 9 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

It looks like one of those crusaders who google for certain key words
and start stirring up the mud.


No, actually I've been a serial lurker to this ng for some time now.

I wonder if Kane has a standard rant
that is saved to his or her hard drive.


I wonder what made YOU think of that particular tactic though? I never
have.


If you *really* were a "serial lurker" in meh-sc, you'd know why he
thought that. Makes me think you're lying about your ng habits.


but,but...
Jon

  #10  
Old October 10th 03, 05:23 AM
Michael S. Morris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking





Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003

Kane:
Basically, Ray, you are a coward. You are afraid to defend your
brutal
practice of spanking in a larger arena so try to confine it to this
small one where you know there will be plenty of supporters.
Ray:
I don't need to defend it. The practice needs no defence -- though
Michael S Morris did a very good job while simultaneously tearing
your
arguments into tiny little pieces. I was quite impressed, actually.

Ray, I don't think I began to tear any arguments up yet---I feel
in fact that all I really did was stake out a position. I am especially
embarassed when, driving around this evening, I got to thinking about
some of the things Kane has said, and I realized how much utter hokum
and
nonsense they are. He did say---did he not?---that science has somehow
shown that pain can't teach children anything. Now, the "science" of
brain scans or no, I would suggest that nearly every one of us
has had some experience of doing something really stupid---like putting
your hand on a hot burner or touching a "hot" wire or slamming
a car door on your hand---and being rewarded for it with an immediate,
and possibly longlasting, painful feedback which feedback has taught us
never
to do that again. My most recent case was rolling a riding lawn a couple
summers ago, throwing myself off it to get clear, and snapping my left
humerus in two as a result. I now have a much healthier respect for the
design envelope of a riding mower. If Kane's claim *really* is that pain
blocks learning, then he has just ruled out all of our common sense and
common experience. He is probably also at odds with any and every
evolutionary biological explanation for pain that I've ever run across.

Also, think about it for a moment: Whence brain scans "proving" that
pain blocks learning? I mean, I've read Milgram's summary of his
psychological experiments in _Obedience to Authority_. Those experiments
*simulated* pain in a "victim" in order to observe a subject's
reaction to it. And that kind of experimental procedure has long since
been declared unethical. So, I'd say it's pretty obvious that no
one in recent history has run experiments subjecting people to
pain in order to test whether or not people (and certainly not kids)
can learn under the influence of pain. So, any "brain scan" claims
there could be would have to be just wild extrapolation, making
all kinds of assumptions about what causes what and what activity
here or there in the brain might mean in terms of learning or not
learning something.

Again, all one has to do is talk to an older teacher who remembers the
days in public school when he had a wooden paddle and the authority
to use it if students misbehaved. Guess what? Those were days when
he shooting at Columbine, not to mention metal detectors at the
entrances
to schools, and armed policemen to patrol the halls, were unthinkable.

Mike Morris
)
 




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