Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

In article ,
Nan wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:28:05 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

In article ,
Nan wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:44:48 -0800, "Circe" wrote:

My kids' report cards since K have had the equivalent of letter grades
for
all academic marks: a 4 is Advanced (an A), a 3 is Proficient (a B), 2 is
Basic and 1 is Below Basic. The options of Outstanding, Satisfactory and
Needs Improvement are only available for citizenship/effort scores. Just
because they aren't letters doesn't make them any less "grades". I think
they switch over to the letter grade system in middle school, but they've
been getting them since the beginning.

I have to admit we haven't seen a grade for my dd in K yet, so I'm
unsure how our elementary school does this.

My thinking is that until the letter grades are being given and
actually *count*, then what's the big deal with not enforcing the
homework you disagree with?

Well, for starters, it may be teaching your child that it is perfectly
okay
not to do assigned work if your don't agreee with it. I think that could
have some pretty negative consequences when it comes to convincing the
child
that *school*work needs to be completed, let alone homework.

Yes, I can see how that would be a possible drawback. However, for
those parents complaining that homework is proven to be useless at
these grade levels, and how it interferes with their family life, it
could be a possible solution.
Until the grade actually means something, I don't get the push to
enforce it.

Nan


Unfortunately, they then get set up to think that it's OK to ignore what
the teachers want them to do.

As far as I'm concerned, for at least some percentage of the kids,
homework in the early elementary grades is a lose/lose proposition. You
can fight over getting it done (accomplishing nothing academically and
making a mess out of your evenings at home, but keeping the teacher
happy) or you can allow your child to NOT do it (making your home life
happier, but having your child be "in trouble" at school with the
teacher -- and setting them up for future problems because they think
it's OK to ignorehomework).

Okay, so it's a "bite the bullet and vent about it" issue, then.

Nan


Pretty much, yes.

Eventually, I quit fighting with my kids about homework. That wasn't a
great solution, either, but at least it got our evenings back to decent.

My kids are all in a community college right now. One daughter talks
about how she never learned to do homework, and is just now learning the
discipline she needs to do well in school -- but she doesn't blame me
and her Dad, acknowledging that we were always available to help her
learn sooner.

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:53:55 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:17:53 GMT, Nan wrote:
Yes, I can see how that would be a possible drawback. However, for
those parents complaining that homework is proven to be useless at
these grade levels, and how it interferes with their family life, it
could be a possible solution.
Until the grade actually means something, I don't get the push to
enforce it.

Nan

Too me t hat's inconsistent and confusion.

So just because its worth a grade instead of basic learning, the kid
doesnt have to do the work???

And how do you explain to the child why the homework is "important"
this year and it wasn't last year?

I am not a big believer in homework at the younger grades but I am a
big believer in consisten attitudes from parents and a big
non-believer in total concentration on grades.

Okay, I see a lot of good points for enforcing homework... so then,
why is everyone complaining about how useless it is?

Well, it IS useless to the extent that there isn't any evidence that
homework before about the 4th grade has a measurable effect on children's
academic progress. The problem is that this doesn't seem to keep teachers
from assigning it, and since it's assigned, one really has to maintain the
expectation that one's child will do it or else one is sending a very mixed
message regarding other things the child might also prefer not to do.
--
Be well, Barbara

dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Barbara


And how do you handle it if your child is NOT struggleing with the
material -- but rather with the focus or desire or discipline to put her
butt in a chair and get the (repetitive and often pointless) work done?

If the problem is NOT the ability to do the work, but the desire to be
doing something else?

How old is the child? One is 8. We talk about priorities, and what
must be done when. (Eg, *you can choose to do your spelling when you
want, but all your work needs to be finished before you leave for Gym
Night. If you do some on Monday and some on Tuesday, you won't have as
much work on Wednesday, so you'll probably be able to go. But it's up
to you.*) Generally, One has 45 minutes of free time after school, to
do whatever he wants. Then it's time for homework. Until that's done,
he's not permitted to do anything else. He can sit in his room and
stare into space, but he cannot go to Gym Night, basketball practice,
the park, his friend's house, etc. And if he were to steadfastly
refuse to do his homework? He'd face whatever consequences the school
metes out, in addition to losing the privileges that he gets from us
for being responsible enough to get his work done.

That will change a bit as he gets older, of course. But that's the way
it is now.

But I suppose that if I conveyed the attitude that I believed that the
work was *pointless* or allowed him to continue to play games, attend
extracurricular activities, watch TV, etc when his homework wasn't
completed, he wouldn't do it.

Barbara

Well, it IS useless to the extent that there isn't any evidence that
homework before about the 4th grade has a measurable effect on children's
academic progress. The problem is that this doesn't seem to keep teachers
from assigning it, and since it's assigned, one really has to maintain the
expectation that one's child will do it or else one is sending a very mixed
message regarding other things the child might also prefer not to do.
--
Be well, Barbara

Can you please provide a link or other way to access this study that
you cite, and explain the methodology of the control to me? I'm
willing to be convinced that I'm wrong, but I would like to read the
study myself first.

Barbara

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Barbara

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Barbara

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:03:29 -0800, "Circe" wrote:

Well, it IS useless to the extent that there isn't any evidence that
homework before about the 4th grade has a measurable effect on children's
academic progress. The problem is that this doesn't seem to keep teachers
from assigning it, and since it's assigned, one really has to maintain the
expectation that one's child will do it or else one is sending a very mixed
message regarding other things the child might also prefer not to do.

I can understand that...

Nan

In article , Donna Metler says...


" I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school? Is it
because organized/structured physical activities (and yep, I'm
stressing the 'organized/structured laden with rules' activities,
because I'm all for letting kids run around in the yard and make up
their own rules) somehow addresses another part of their development,
the part that's okay to devote hours to practicing? Grr.

Simply because, in a phrase, they've already spent HOURS doing it IN
SCHOOL!


But they haven't. NOt in a good program, anyway. There really isn't all that
much time spent just reading, for example, within a school day. There
certainly isn't the sort of activity which equates to selecting a chapter
book with your child and reading it over a period of time, discussing it as
you do it. There's not all that much time spent on the sort of practice
which makes permanent in math either. Most math instruction is more of the
hands-on type.


It's still hours of involvement with a certain range of activities which is
about these academic topics.

And, frankly, if there's so much hands-on for all the hand-on learners that the
*rest* of the kids need reinforcement at home, something is wrong. The job can
and should be finished during all those school hours.

The other frustrating thing is that this tells me, as a parent, what exactly, in
those precious couple of hours in the evening, I'm to do with my kid. YOU might
like to see me extending your curriculum doing this (or even any) chapter book
and discussing it. But perhaps I'd rather be watching election returns with my
kids discussing that!

Banty

Banty

In article .com, Barbara
says...


Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Oh calm down. And in all that rigamarole above you didn't offer much past "get
him help".

When a child takes a long time over a problem, it isn't necessarily because of a
deficit in understanding it. It can be distraction, frustration, fatigue. Or,
in my son's case, relying too long on counting fingers, because he resisted the
tedium of memorization.

Now, tell me, what magic help, what button is there to push, to make him
presto-chango memorize that fact NOW.

What it took was for him to get a bit more down the developmental path and
develop some of that discipline.

Banty