dual immersion

"toypup" wrote in message news:UkFgb.706327$uu5.116329@sccrnsc04...

I understand the advantage of being bilingual. I was bilingual as a child,
but lost it as I grew up. I just wonder if schooling completely 50/50 is
good. I'd like it better if they had it 80/20 or so throughout grade school
so that his English would be stronger. I just wonder if his fluency in
English reading and writing would be just as strong if it was 50/50. I've
never known anyone who was schooled 50/50, but I know many bilingual
families and was raised in one myself. When I was young, we had our native
language taught once a week on the weekends. That was enough to learn basic
reading and writing. It's just the excessive schooling that DH is so
concerned about, and I have some reservations myself after he brought up his
concerns.

In a 50/50 program, based on the kids I know in similar school
situations here, I would probably expect him to lag behind for awhile.
But I would also expect him to not only catch up but move beyond his
peers after a few years. If there was an 80/20 program (or I'd prefer
60/40), I'd probably lean slightly towards that myself. But if the
choice is between 50/50 or nothing, I'd go with the 50/50. Your DH's
concerns, IME, are valid. But unless your child has other learning
disabilities, the lack of fluency won't last very long, and the
learning experience is better in the long run.

DS will always know Spanish, I believe, because it is such a common language
around here, so I'm not afraid that he'll lose it. I'm just wondering how
much formal education he should have in it.

I'd go for full formal education, speaking from my own experience. I
grew up not in a bilingual household but in a heavily Spanish speaking
community (my grandparents frowned upon speaking Spanish - "we're in
the US. Speak English!", so my mother did not grow up bilingual).
However, as most of my childhood friends were children of immigrants
or immigrants themselves, I spoke Spanish regularly with them and
their parents. However, I never had formal schooling in it, and I
highly regret that. For dumb reasons I chose to study other languages
when I got to high school and college - esp because "I am always
around it so it's not necessary." I taught myself to read and write
it. I have lived in a Spanish speaking country and managed, and when
in the US I live in a very heavily Spanish speaking community, so I am
exposed to it on a daily basis, but the lack of formal training in it
has frustrated me - and I tend to speak it like a kid, because that
was my most intensive exposure to it. Yes, I know this is my own fault
now . For other reasons (work, and my partner), I've got two other
languages on my plate now, so Spanish is still taking a back seat....

So, in sum, I'd go with pushing the formal education from Day 1. Yes,
he'll probably be less fluent in both languages for awhile, but at 6
years old, is that a huge problem? It won't suffer for long, and soon,
he'll be more fluent in both.


fwiw - locally, many of the kids I know are in trilingual situations
at least: their native language, the local language, and english.
School is english and the local language (some schools are 50/50, some
more like 80/20), and their native language is spoken at home, unless
the parents speak two languages, in which case there's yet another
involved.... There are at least 4 languages commonly spoken in this
town, and that's just the locals, not including the foreigners!

Living in Quebec, we have thousands of children in immersion programs. Not
all immersion programs are for all children so you need to know what you
would do if it turned out not to be for your family.

Generally, immersion programs done properly are great and really give the
child a good grounding in the second language. But, and it's a big but.....
you need to know what languages are being taught in which language.

For example, my children didn't go to immersion, they went to a bilingual
school which is not the same thing. Immersion schools do exactly that. They
immerse the children in the second language - often 100% in the first two
years or so, and the percentage dropping as the grade rises.

Bilingual schools, as the one my children attended, had half the day in
English, half the day in French. For grades 1 through 3, the French courses
were math, sciences, and a few others. For grades 4 through to 6
(inclusive), whatever was in French was then taught in English and vice
versa. There were advantages and disadvantages. Some parents were very
against math being taught in the second language because the program we use
in Quebec is very problem solving oriented so you need a good grasp of
language to understand it. OTOH, it also had its advantages.

Another thing to remember is that an immersion course may be great for one
child, but not another - in the same family. All three of my children
attended the same school, the same bilingual program and even had many of
the same teachers (and pretty well the identical out of school French
exposure). Yet, when my two boys wrote french placement exams for high
school (grade 7 here) - my oldest son placed in the "lange maternelle" or
mother tongue level, while my youngest placed squarely in the middle of
"langue seconde" courses, or second language. The difference being, in the
second language courses, the teach and learn the language while in the
mother tongue level, they use the language. Different teaching approaches.
My daughter, in another school, scored right in the middle of the two boys.

Whatever you choose, it's not irreversible and you won't know if it's the
right thing until you're in it (which ever you choose). Just go with your
gut. Many, many, many children graduate from our immersion or bilingual
programs being fluent in both languages, but many also have difficulty in
their mother tongue if it's not kept up at home. Only you'll know what is
right for you.

Good luck,
Marijke
mom to 3 fairly bilingual kids aged 12, 14 and 16

"toypup" wrote in message
news:sVsgb.702557$uu5.116149@sccrnsc04...
DS knows Spanish and English. We speak English at home, and the dcp only
speaks Spanish. So, when it comes time for kindy in a few years, DS will
have the opportunity to be in a dual immersion program where 50% of the
classes are in English and 50% are taught entirely in Spanish. I like
this
idea, but DH thinks DS will grow up to be only so-so in both languages. I
can see how the written language may suffer some, and it's only a
theoretical risk; but other than that, I don't see a problem. Has anyone
else had their child in a dual immersion program? What did you think? If
we don't do that, DS would still know Spanish, as it's spoken frequently
in
this area, and I intend to hold onto the dcp for after school care. Would
it be better to keep him in an English only program until he's older, so
that his English reading and writing skills have more time to be
ingrained?
He could always learn to read and write in Spanish in high school, though
maybe he won't do it as well if he learns it so late. This is a few years
down the line, but I'm always one to think ahead.

"toypup" wrote in message news:UkFgb.706327$uu5.116329@sccrnsc04...
DS will always know Spanish, I believe, because it is such a common language
around here, so I'm not afraid that he'll lose it. I'm just wondering how
much formal education he should have in it.

Already posted a much longer response, but what I should have said
more simply, is that I don't think it's best to *rely* on "such a
common language" to *teach* it. Unless he's actually living in a place
where *only* Spanish is spoken and he is forced to use it daily, all
the time, he likely won't once it becomes easier to use English. And,
in such circumstances, more commonly you get "Spanglish."

I can't fully comment on whether the immersion vs as-a-second-language
programs are best, but do think intensive formal education in the
language is necessary from an early age (ie not one hour a week).

I STRONGLY agree with XOR who said:

"I can't fully comment on whether the immersion vs as-a-second-language
programs are best, but do think intensive formal education in the
language is necessary from an early age (ie not one hour a week)."

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"toypup" wrote:

: "Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote:

: In the town where I reside, the local Public Schools
offer
: French Immersion and Spanish FLES (Foreign Language in
: Elementary School) programs. I have heard more about a
: learning lag in the Immersion program than in the FLES.
The
: immersion has been around for quite a few years longer;
I
: believe the first High School graduates of the program
were
: in 2001. All seems well with them FLES has been
around
: for about five years, and I can't recall hearing
anything
: other than positive feedback from the parents that I
know
: who have kids in the program.

: Thanks. That would guide me more towards a foreign
language program rather
: than a 50/50 immersion program.

Oh, no, don't let my comments do that! They are merely
anecdotal

My girls were already attending Greek School when they
entered the first grade, and I felt that attempting three
languages at the age of six might be a bit much (I was
roundly chastised by several for that conservative attitude,
I might add . Greek School fizzled after a few years, so
I did wish that I had entered them into the Immersion
Program.

There was quite a hub-bub here that the immersion language
was French and not Spanish. The schools defense was that
there was no teaching model available for Spanish at the
time (?), and that it made no difference what the immersion
language was, it was the fact that they were bilingual that
counted (?). Several years down the road, the Spanish FLES
program was implemented. I felt that it was a peace
offering to all the parents that were adamantly opposed to
the French Immersion Program. It is nothing at all like
immersion, and you should read about it on some of the
available websites. It may not be at all what you are
looking for. My comments regarding the lag were in
agreement with some that had posted their experience that
there was one, but FWIU the children then catch up and
sometimes surpass their peers in the English language
program.

My daughters have been taking Spanish since 6th grade in
what is called a 'Whole Language' program. They have a full
period of language every day, and will have 7 full years of
spanish when they graduate from High School.

Ruth B