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Help with sleep



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 25th 04, 03:03 PM
Jodie
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Default Help with sleep

DD (14 months) is a terrible sleeper. Only recently have I managed to
help her to start taking a fairly decent nap. However, our real
problems are at night.

The only thing that is consistent with her nighttime sleep is
inconsistency. I know, that is the nature of the beast. For instance,
one night she may sleep from 8p to 5a (heaven!), the next night, she may
be up every 2 hours (may as well have a newborn) and the next night, she
will sleep 8p to midnight, have a quick feed and back to sleep until 7a.
Most nights, however, she is up at least 2-3 times.

We are trying desperately to night wean. So, DH steps in and gets her
when she wakes. The problem is she will not let him comfort her, or put
her to sleep (this wasn't always a problem, in the past, there have been
many nights where she let him). Last night was particularly bad. After
an hour of her screaming while he was trying everything, bottle of
water, patting, rocking, walking, I caved and nursed her to sleep.

I have looked at NCSS, and for various reasons, the methods just don't
work. I have two other children who need to sleep, too, and so does
mommy :-P

Sorry if this seems choppy, we are trying to get out the door, but I
needed to get this on here to please, please, please get some
suggestions.

TIA,
Jodie

  #2  
Old March 25th 04, 06:16 PM
Larry McMahan
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Default Help with sleep

Jodie writes:

: We are trying desperately to night wean. So, DH steps in and gets her
: when she wakes. The problem is she will not let him comfort her, or put
: her to sleep (this wasn't always a problem, in the past, there have been
: many nights where she let him). Last night was particularly bad. After
: an hour of her screaming while he was trying everything, bottle of
: water, patting, rocking, walking, I caved and nursed her to sleep.

You mean totally? Why so, and why "desperately"? Maybe the best thing
would be to try and establish a routine where she goes a good 4 hours
after going to bed, then nurses only 1 to 3 times during the night.
I think you should also plan on going to bed shortly after your daughter
so that you can get a adequate amount of sleep.

In any case, good luck,
Larry
  #3  
Old March 25th 04, 06:52 PM
Jodie
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Default Help with sleep

Larry wrote:

You mean totally?


I mean totally night wean. Her current nursing schedule is : nurse
upon waking, nurse to sleep for nap, (sometimes) nurse when wake up from
nap and nurse to sleep at night (in addition to the usual night
nursings).

Why so, and why "desperately"?


Perhaps "desperately" wasn't a good choice of word. I guess because she
has had nights when she will sleep very well, although few and far
between it seems. I think her problem is putting herself back to sleep
when she has wakeful periods in her sleep cycle, instead of always
depending on nursing to go back to sleep. Or letting DH help her
(which, as I said, she won't)


Maybe the best thing would be to try and
establish a routine where she goes a good 4
hours after going to bed, then nurses only 1 to
3 times during the night.


Good idea. But how do I go about establishing that? Her usual bedtime
is 8:00 - 8:30. What do I do if she wakes up at, say, 10:00? She won't
let DH settle her, and she certainly won't have any of me trying to pat,
rock, sshhhh when I've got the "goods".


I think you should also plan on going to bed
shortly after your daughter so that you can get
a adequate amount of sleep.


Oh, I know I really shouldn't complain about my sleep. The main point
of my post is to get ideas as to how to get her to either, a) accept
soothing from someone other than me a.k.a. nursing, or b) learn to fall
asleep without nursing (which I guess would go hand in hand).

Besides, I have two other kids who need me, as well.

In any case, good luck,
Larry


Thanks, Larry

Jodie

  #4  
Old March 25th 04, 08:37 PM
Cheryl S.
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Default Help with sleep

"Jodie" wrote in message
...
I think her problem is putting herself back to sleep
when she has wakeful periods in her sleep cycle, instead of always
depending on nursing to go back to sleep.


You have hit the nail on the head right here. All people have wakeful
periods during sleep. That is never going to go away, so the only
answer is for her to learn to fall back to sleep by herself when they
occur. That means without any kind of eating, drinking, rocking,
walking, patting, etc., etc. I know it's got a bad rap here but the
book by Ferber adresses all your questions exactly. I know you are
worried about keeping your other kids up and that was a concern for me
too. But it turned out not to be a problem and using that method has
saved my life. I'm hardly exaggerating there, because I could well have
caused a car accident with how tired I was before implementing this. I
started it 20 days ago. It took only one night for me to see a very
dramatic improvement. It may take longer for you at 14 months than for
me, doing it at 6 months, but once it works it would be so worth it.
Your other kids will survive a few nights of interrupted sleep. The
book also gave me a much better understanding of the physiology of
normal sleep and that helps me know how to respond appropriately when he
wakes up at night. Now, I do nurse him twice a night still, because I
do believe he still needs that nourishment, but now instead of being up
half the night he goes right back to bed. He is so much better off,
being able to sleep well and getting all the sleep he needs, than he was
before. He immediately started taking much longer naps during the day.
I'm sure he was at least as sleep deprived as I was, based on how much
more he sleeps now. I regard allowing him the opportunity to learn how
to sleep well as meeting one of his most basic physical needs, not
depriving him of emotional needs in any way.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 6 months


  #5  
Old March 25th 04, 09:53 PM
Kari
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Default Help with sleep

.. Now, I do nurse him twice a night still, because I
do believe he still needs that nourishment, but now instead of being up
half the night he goes right back to bed. He is so much better off,
being able to sleep well and getting all the sleep he needs, than he was
before. He immediately started taking much longer naps during the day.
I'm sure he was at least as sleep deprived as I was, based on how much
more he sleeps now. I regard allowing him the opportunity to learn how
to sleep well as meeting one of his most basic physical needs, not
depriving him of emotional needs in any way.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 6 months


I wanted to ask you and since you mentioned it, I thought I'd just ask in
this thread.

You said he still gets up twice to eat, that's basically what Xan does too,
and we're trying to break him of that. I guess like the OP says, night wean
him. I swear he's waking out of habit not hunger, what are your cues like
with Jaden? I ask because Xander will eat for about 5 minutes and be back to
sleep. It's great that he does it so fast but kind of annoying too, that he
only wakes for that long if you kwim? Like he's not really hungry but when
he's really awake, he can't go back to sleep without nursing.

And he will have nights where he will get up once to eat (he goes to bed at
7 and gets up around 5:30-6am) and then we have nights where he will get up
3 or 4 times a night. Typically it's around midnight and 3:30 though.

If you were me, would you do the ferber method with him or just keep doing
what we're doing? Im not sure what to do at this point.

Thanks

And good luck to the OP

Kari

Kari




  #6  
Old March 26th 04, 12:08 AM
Larry McMahan
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Default Help with sleep

Regarding falling asleep without nursing: We started brushing their teeth
at about 2 yo. We had a simple rule that you could nurse at bedtime and
then after your teeth were brushed not until you woke again in the middle
of the night. Regarding waking 2 hours after going to sleep, that just
came with the territory, but it did not really happen to often. Ours did
not stop night nursing until they were 3 or 4. It was the LAST nursing
sessions they gave up (well, other than bedtime and waking).

Larry


Jodie writes:
: Larry wrote:

:You mean totally?

: I mean totally night wean. Her current nursing schedule is : nurse
: upon waking, nurse to sleep for nap, (sometimes) nurse when wake up from
: nap and nurse to sleep at night (in addition to the usual night
: nursings).

:Why so, and why "desperately"?

: Perhaps "desperately" wasn't a good choice of word. I guess because she
: has had nights when she will sleep very well, although few and far
: between it seems. I think her problem is putting herself back to sleep
: when she has wakeful periods in her sleep cycle, instead of always
: depending on nursing to go back to sleep. Or letting DH help her
: (which, as I said, she won't)


:Maybe the best thing would be to try and
:establish a routine where she goes a good 4
:hours after going to bed, then nurses only 1 to
:3 times during the night.

: Good idea. But how do I go about establishing that? Her usual bedtime
: is 8:00 - 8:30. What do I do if she wakes up at, say, 10:00? She won't
: let DH settle her, and she certainly won't have any of me trying to pat,
: rock, sshhhh when I've got the "goods".


:I think you should also plan on going to bed
:shortly after your daughter so that you can get
:a adequate amount of sleep.

: Oh, I know I really shouldn't complain about my sleep. The main point
: of my post is to get ideas as to how to get her to either, a) accept
: soothing from someone other than me a.k.a. nursing, or b) learn to fall
: asleep without nursing (which I guess would go hand in hand).

: Besides, I have two other kids who need me, as well.

:In any case, good luck,
:Larry

: Thanks, Larry

: Jodie

  #7  
Old March 26th 04, 12:45 AM
Jodie
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Default Help with sleep

Cheryl wrote:

snip very helpful personal experience

I know it's got a bad rap here but the book by
Ferber adresses all your questions exactly.


I've been thinking about looking into that book, actually. I never had
this issue with my other two. They both "slept thru the night" at 8
weeks and were putting themselves to sleep at 4 months. sigh They
weren't bf, either, so, unfortunately, the tendency is to blame the bf,
which is not where I want to go. But when you're frustrated, you want
to blame something, ya know?

Anyway, thanks, Cheryl. And here's hoping your good sleep continues

Jodie

  #8  
Old March 26th 04, 01:34 AM
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Default Help with sleep

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:52:44 -0600 (CST), (Jodie)
wrote:

I think her problem is putting herself back to sleep
when she has wakeful periods in her sleep cycle, instead of always
depending on nursing to go back to sleep. Or letting DH help her
(which, as I said, she won't)


We didn't even try to start night weaning DD until 18 months (she is
still a semi rotten sleeper at 23 months), but yes there where a few
really bad nights while she got use to the idea that DH was there and
not me. These still occur from time to time if she really wants me and
not just someone.

Is your 14 month old still in a cot? We moved DD out around that age
because we discovered that she was moving around so much she would
wake herself up hitting the rails (she was moved to a full single and
is currently in a futon double). This made it easier on me to do night
feeds until she was 18 months. If she isn't well she does still get
night feeds. It also made it easier for DH to settle her when he
needed to.

Also does you DH help get your little one off to sleep at all? (naps
included), you might find that if he does (even if it is only on
weekends) that it helps with the overnight settling (if you can't be
in the house - go out have some time with your other kids or by
yourself at that time).

Oh, I know I really shouldn't complain about my sleep. The main point
of my post is to get ideas as to how to get her to either, a) accept
soothing from someone other than me a.k.a. nursing, or b) learn to fall
asleep without nursing (which I guess would go hand in hand).


Kind of - DD still prefers to go to sleep nursing but car trips,
rocking, walking all will also put her to sleep (if she is tired). It
has taken a long time but we think DD is getting there with getting
herself back to sleep overnight (depending on why she has woken), some
nights are better than others (last night was good - night before was
bad) but we have been slowly getting more sleep than we where.

Di
  #9  
Old March 26th 04, 01:48 PM
Cheryl S.
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Default Help with sleep

"Kari" wrote in message
...
You said he still gets up twice to eat, that's basically what Xan does

too,
and we're trying to break him of that. I guess like the OP says, night

wean
him. I swear he's waking out of habit not hunger, what are your cues

like
with Jaden? I ask because Xander will eat for about 5 minutes and be

back to
sleep. It's great that he does it so fast but kind of annoying too,

that he
only wakes for that long if you kwim? Like he's not really hungry but

when
he's really awake, he can't go back to sleep without nursing.

And he will have nights where he will get up once to eat (he goes to

bed at
7 and gets up around 5:30-6am) and then we have nights where he will

get up
3 or 4 times a night. Typically it's around midnight and 3:30 though.

If you were me, would you do the ferber method with him or just keep

doing
what we're doing? Im not sure what to do at this point.


What Ferber suggests for the issue of night feeding is two-part. The
first part is to progressively increase the amount of time between
feedings. The first night, do not nurse if it has been less than two
hours since the last feeding. Then 2.5 hours the next night, 3 hours
the third night, etc., increasing by half hour each night The second
part is, at the feeding you want to eliminate first, reduce the length
of that feeding by one minute at a time. You can do it as gradually as
you want, from one minute per night to one minute every 3-4 nights.
Doing this is what got Jaden to sleeping a 6 hour stretch at night. He
gets up every 3 hours after that, just nurses for about 10 minutes at
most, and goes right back to sleep. He sleeps from 7:30 pm to between
6:00-7:30 am. Since that happened, he has started nursing at *least*
every 2 hours, all day. He is eating as much as he can during the day
and I know that he does settle himself when he wakes at other times
(e.g. I usually hear him rustle about at 10:00 pm but he doesn't cry) so
I believe that when he does want to eat at night he really needs to, so
I feed him. The night before I bought Ferber's book, Jaden was up
precisely every 2 hours, and was awake for 30-90 minutes each time.
Within three nights we got to what I decribed above. It is bliss for me
just getting this far, so I'm not even trying to push it right now and
definitely not until he's through this bout of teething. (He got 3
teeth in the past 11 days, and is working on 3 more.) I know he can
settle himself under normal conditions but during teething - for *6*
teeth! - (*and* a cold, last week) seemed to be expecting a little too
much. Now I have been warned that Ferber worked for someone else at
first, but after allowing nursing at night again due to such
circumstances, the night wakings continued and Ferber's method did not
work the second time. I hope I'm not heading down that path but I know
I am on thin ice already. Two of the past 5 nights he has gotten up an
extra time. So consistency is crucial. But, I'm infinitely better off
right now having had three weeks of better sleep anyway, so I'd do it
again in a heartbeat. The earliest Ferber recommends using his method
is 5-6 months, BTW.

Not sure if that answers your questions but feel free to ask more.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 6 months


  #10  
Old March 26th 04, 04:58 PM
Kari
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Default Help with sleep

.. The earliest Ferber recommends using his method
is 5-6 months, BTW.

Not sure if that answers your questions but feel free to ask more.


Wow, that was really helpful thank you.

I really dont want to let him cry for any long period of time and the only
way I will is if I know he's full, dry and comfortable. I do let him fuss at
naptimes and he's gotten much better at taking naps for me but he still gets
up 2-3 times a night.

He will be 6 mos on the 1st so he's just starting on solids and he's
starting to teethe so I hear ya on that avenue. Im not sure if it's the best
time to be working on his sleep patterns but Im afraid if I dont, then he'll
still be up 2-3 times a night when he's 2 years old! I cannot even
imagine....Im exhausted as it is!

Thanks again, Cheryl.

Kari




 




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