60 Minutes - Aussies

On 2006-10-24 17:18:20 +0800, Larissa In Aus said:

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:56:33 +0800, Notchalk wrote:

Did anyone see the clip on 60 Minutes last night about Attachment Parenting?

What did you think?

The transcript can be read he
http://tinyurl.com/tuqxb

It's a bit hard to follow, but you get the idea.

I've written my comment in to the "Mailbag"



Jo

I saw half of it on Youtube. Yeah it sucked, but it is 60minutes so that
is to be expected I supposed. It made me so angry I decided not to watch
he second half just yet.

What I hated was callers opinions, on stupid, radio morning programmes.
Most comments were along the lines of 'Ewww how disgusting'.

The Aust. Breastfeeding forums and counsellors chat forum were running hot.

I am mostly AP but my babies all weaned on their own before the age of
2.5. I am not adverse to older children bf, most children
older than 2 or 3 would not be bf in public very often.
Feelin a bit sad about society's views on all things a little outside the
range of normal.

Larissa

OOh, I didn't see this - I'll have to check it out!

Thanks,
Jo
--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife

Notchalk wrote:
On 2006-10-24 02:31:16 +0800, said:


(Let me emphasize that I have NO issues with attachment parenting,
extended bfing, or anything else. I DO have issues with sloppy
statistics. Especially with sloppy statistics that can be so easily
disproven that they weaken your case!)

Naomi


Jo Watson
(Mother, Midwife)


--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife

Ack Naomi! I can't even remember where that figure came from, but it's
the last known stat I remember 'knowing' on this issue. I most likely
got it off the 'net somewhere, or in a crunchy book. It's just
something that's been in my head for a few years, and it fell out onto
the screen and got sent without me even thinking to reference it.

Now I'm a bit scared incase they DO read it out!

Thanks... I think

So.... today it lets me copy-paste links!

Here's a link to Kathryn Dettwyler's page where she talks a bit about
the 4.2 figure (which she agrees seems to have no basis) and other ways
of determining the 'natural' weaning age. (Which she notes, depending
on which method you choose, would be somewhere between 2.5 and 7
years.)




http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

But yeah, as I said, I've been seeing the '4.2' figure (often quoted in
LLL publications, with no cite) for at least 15 years now. And the 7
year figure is often taken from Dettwyler's writing, even though, at
least here she emphasizes that it's only one possible method of
'figuring' . (Based on the fact that non-human primates tend to wean
when the young has reached 1/3rd of his adult weight and is halfway to
sexual maturity.)

But I'd guess that in the 21st century world, even when you factor in
third world societies where extended nursing is common (if not
necessarily the rule anymore), we WOULD be looking at an average of
somewhere around 2 years.

Naomi


Jo


--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife

"Notchalk" wrote in message
...
On 2006-10-24 12:52:24 +0800, "FlowerGirl"
said:


"Notchalk" wrote in message
...
Did anyone see the clip on 60 Minutes last night about Attachment
Parenting?

What did you think?

What - couldn't you hear me telling Tara Brown (yelling at the TV)
what a
one-eyed idiot I think she is from where you are? Surely you heard the
cursing!!!

...and not that I have a problem with little boys peeing (get to see
that
myself here but wasn't it interesting that Tara apologised for
"putting
(people) off (their) dinner" for the image of a 5yo bf, but made no
comment
for the image of a small boy's genitalia and subsequent urination.

...and does she really get paid as a reporter?? ... I thought they were
supposed to do some semblance of balanced research when putting together
their stories ...
Lets see ... Tara's list of jobs when putting together her AP story...
1. Firstly, find the wackiest of APs you could find (need to travel to
England as it turns out) and then trot out your own, in-house medico
(being
sure to make it *sound* like he's a real expert and not the quack they
consult on the breaky show) who's so far removed from cutting edge
research
its not funny.
2. Artfully ignore William Sears or any other medico who recommends any
form
of AP.
3. Bag co-sleeping and assume that its not possible to have sex anywhere
other than in a parental bed.
4. Don't ask the ABA for a comment or check the WHO guidelines for bf.
5. Don't do even the most basic Medline search for any benefits
associated
with extended bf, but do show the footage of a 5 yo bf and apologise for
putting people off their dinner.
6. Don't bother to look up any information for yourself and base your
"expert opinion" on the "expert" medico's personal case notes. ....
which
also made me wonder if he'd like to tot up the number of patients he
sees
that he thinks have been damaged by AP and cite that number as a
percentage
of patients he sees damaged by parental neglect.
7. Don't show too much of the aussie chick who's an AP because, as she's
obviously smarter than you are and we don't want the audience to see
that.
8. Be sure to edit out any footage of the kids behaving like little
angels
and be sure to get as much anti-social behaviour and tanties as you can
film
and only show those bits.
9. Make every parent who's ever bf or co-slept un comfortable by
describing
bf as off-putting and co-sleeping as inherently damaging.

OK so I'm not a die-hard APer, but on a sliding scale, I'm a heck of a
lot
closer to AP than I am to Ezzo. ...as are many many Aussie parents and
she
managed to ****-off a whole heap of us in 10 minutes flat. Well done
Tara
(you idiot).

Amanda

Amanda, that was EXACTLY what I was trying to get accross in my email
to the mailbag... Well said!

Well, a less sarcastic version of the above has been e-mailed to 60-minutes.
I hope whatsisface reads out some of our letters ... unfortunately I'm quite
sure there'll also be a few letters saying how "disgusting" it was ...
Amanda

In article , "Linda" wrote:

It was pretty obvious which way it was heading when they apologize for
ruining dinner and then show a child breastfeeding (interspersed with shots
of cows and calves).

What?! You've gotta be kidding. Y'know, I remember when 60 Minutes was
respectable. Before they got Richard Carleton.

Now I personally would not want to feed a child who is 5+,

I hadn't planned on it, but DS1 (5.5) still has a bedtime feed when I can't
weasel out of it.

I certainly plan
on disciplining my DD, schooling is under discussion (I'd like to homeschool
her for a couple of years but DH is worried about her social development), I
do practise elimination communication.

I have the distinct feeling (after reading the article in the ABA magazine)
that EC only works if you have ONE child and don't do much else with your
time. Is that true?

DD has never used a dummy, not
because we are against them but she never needed one. She sleeps with us,
because we all get a better nights sleep that way. She gets taken out in
both a pram and a carrier. So we have most of the elements that they were
putting down, but probably not to the level of the people they showed.
The sad thing is that maybe parents who are unsure of what they believe may
be swayed by ridiculous reporting, and it could put future parents who were
considering what path they want to take, off, making them think they are
doing the wrong thing if they breastfeed (past a year?), homeschool, don't
smack etc etc

I think it's just part of a range of areas where people are becoming more
conservative. It's a pendulum...

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article , "Linda" wrote:
snip
I certainly plan
on disciplining my DD, schooling is under discussion (I'd like to
homeschool
her for a couple of years but DH is worried about her social
development), I
do practise elimination communication.

I have the distinct feeling (after reading the article in the ABA
magazine)
that EC only works if you have ONE child and don't do much else with your
time. Is that true?

snip
--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You
may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

I don't know from my own experience, but my mother and mother-in-law both
assure me that they started potty training early, and that each baby was out
of nappies by the time the next one arrived. In my mum's case, that's 20
months. Actually I don't think it was considered early back then -- in the
days of cloth nappies and not everyone having town water and modern washing
machines, it was normal.

Liz

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article , "Linda" wrote:

It was pretty obvious which way it was heading when they apologize for
ruining dinner and then show a child breastfeeding (interspersed with
shots
of cows and calves).

What?! You've gotta be kidding. Y'know, I remember when 60 Minutes was
respectable. Before they got Richard Carleton.

Yes, it was pretty ridiculous.


Now I personally would not want to feed a child who is 5+,

I hadn't planned on it, but DS1 (5.5) still has a bedtime feed when I
can't
weasel out of it.

Well thats true - a lot of my ideas have changed from what I had planned -
eg I hadn't planned on cosleeping - can't imagine any other way now.


I certainly plan
on disciplining my DD, schooling is under discussion (I'd like to
homeschool
her for a couple of years but DH is worried about her social
development), I
do practise elimination communication.

I have the distinct feeling (after reading the article in the ABA
magazine)
that EC only works if you have ONE child and don't do much else with your
time. Is that true?

Well I can't say for sure - DD is my first, so I obviously have more time
for her but to be honest I don't think it really takes that much time
although I have nothing to compare with. Normally she'll pee in the morning
as soon as she wakes, then roughly every 1 - 2 hours for the rest of the
day. And I normally just have pants on her at home or only going out
briefly - not brave enough to go out for long stretches without a nappy
though!!
So when I take her, I sit her on the potty, she goes and thats it - quicker
than when I have to change her while we're out.
The only times it is a hassle is say if we're in the middle of something and
she needs to go - I have to take her right then, where it would be nice to
be able to wait a few minutes if I wanted - but thats ok.
I know other people in the EC forum have older kids, so I guess they manage,
although in the early months it takes a bit more effort.



DD has never used a dummy, not
because we are against them but she never needed one. She sleeps with
us,
because we all get a better nights sleep that way. She gets taken out in
both a pram and a carrier. So we have most of the elements that they
were
putting down, but probably not to the level of the people they showed.
The sad thing is that maybe parents who are unsure of what they believe
may
be swayed by ridiculous reporting, and it could put future parents who
were
considering what path they want to take, off, making them think they are
doing the wrong thing if they breastfeed (past a year?), homeschool,
don't
smack etc etc

I think it's just part of a range of areas where people are becoming more
conservative. It's a pendulum...

Probably right.

On 25 Oct 2006 09:53:40 -0700, wrote:


Here's a link to Kathryn Dettwyler's page where she talks a bit about
the 4.2 figure (which she agrees seems to have no basis) and other ways
of determining the 'natural' weaning age. (Which she notes, depending
on which method you choose, would be somewhere between 2.5 and 7
years.)

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

But yeah, as I said, I've been seeing the '4.2' figure (often quoted in
LLL publications, with no cite) for at least 15 years now. And the 7
year figure is often taken from Dettwyler's writing, even though, at
least here she emphasizes that it's only one possible method of
'figuring' . (Based on the fact that non-human primates tend to wean
when the young has reached 1/3rd of his adult weight and is halfway to
sexual maturity.)

Well, to do some dodgy mathematics on these figures : 7 years is 84
months. Then take 2.5 years which is 30 months. 84 months minus 30
months is 54 months. 54 months divided by 12 is 4.5 years. Is there
some way that "someone" from LLL or ABA somehow got the 4.2 years age
wrong and stuffed it up? Somehow? It is close hey? 4.2 multiplied by
12 equals 50.4. 4.5 multiplied by 4.5 equals 54 - hmmmmmmm. Who knows?
I teach English not Mathematics btw but the figures look close enough
to have been misinterpreted by someone who didn't know what they were
doing aka - me at this moment. I'm just putting this out there for
someone smarter than me to mull over.

People talk about the "average" age of weaning and then confuse it
with Kathy Dettwyle'rs "natural age of weaning". That's what makes
this discussion messy.

Kathy Dettwyler writes about a "natural age of weaning" not an
average. That is the difference. She is an anthropologist. She writes
about what is natural for our species, not what is average. I'd rather
be natural AND "above average" anyway when it comes to feeding my
children

Just because the world average age of weaning might statistically be
around 2.5 years doesn't mean that it is what is best for our
children.

I prefer the natural age of weaning to the average age.

The 60 mins thing was ridiculous. I stumbled into AP when my first
baby showed me it was what he needed. He needed it to stop him
screaming 24/7 I didn't choose AP because I wanted to be weird or a
kook, just happened to find myself an AP'er by accident - thank
goodness I did! Thank the Universe my son showed me how to parent him
the AP way!

Did anyone see the mailbag regarding the AP program? I didn't. Tell us
about it?

The 60 mins thing was ridiculous. I stumbled into AP when my first
baby showed me it was what he needed. He needed it to stop him
screaming 24/7 I didn't choose AP because I wanted to be weird or a
kook, just happened to find myself an AP'er by accident - thank
goodness I did! Thank the Universe my son showed me how to parent him
the AP way!

Did anyone see the mailbag regarding the AP program? I didn't. Tell us
about it?

Not much to say really - They recapped the segment while stating that most
people agreed it was disgusting (not in those words but that was the gist)
then had one letter which said thanks for showing how the future generation
will be, spoilt etc and so on, and then another letter saying AP is the way
to go.

"Linda" wrote in message
Well I can't say for sure - DD is my first, so I obviously have more time
for her but to be honest I don't think it really takes that much time
although I have nothing to compare with.

But why? What's the point to it? As a mom of three, there is no way I had
the time with all three like I did with just one. Anyway, I like the method
of waiting until they are fully ready to potty train. Doesn't take any time
at all and there are very little to no accidents (my experience).
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

On 2006-10-30 16:43:13 +0800, "Linda" said:

The 60 mins thing was ridiculous. I stumbled into AP when my first
baby showed me it was what he needed. He needed it to stop him
screaming 24/7 I didn't choose AP because I wanted to be weird or a
kook, just happened to find myself an AP'er by accident - thank
goodness I did! Thank the Universe my son showed me how to parent him
the AP way!

Did anyone see the mailbag regarding the AP program? I didn't. Tell us
about it?

Not much to say really - They recapped the segment while stating that
most people agreed it was disgusting (not in those words but that was
the gist) then had one letter which said thanks for showing how the
future generation will be, spoilt etc and so on, and then another
letter saying AP is the way to go.

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed about the letters they chose to include.
Just two short, differing opinions. I can only imagine how many
letters in total there were.

Anyway, I am now understanding where I got 'those' figures from, I just
wrote 'average weaning age' rather than 'anthropologically natural
weaning age'

Nevermind.

Jo
--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife