Sleepless nights - advice please

Hi there.

Little Guillaume still doesn't sleep full nights. He's just turned 5 months
old and, although DH and I switch turns every other night to give him his
milk, I still can't wait for him to sleep at least 8 hours in a row. He
wakes up at least twice during the night, and no matter at what time we give
him his last bottle and put him to bed - he wakes up between 00:00 and 00:30
and again between 3:30 and 4:00. Sometimes he drinks one or two ounces,
other times a full 7 to 8 ounces.

We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started sleeping
12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up at 8AM. In bed at
9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she slept again between 10 and 12
AM during the day, and again between 2 PM and 5 PM, up to 6 PM sometimes.

Now, Guillaume is *completely* different. He sleeps through patches of 30-45
minutes during the day, about three to four times. Then he falls like a
rock, usually around 8:30PM or 9PM. We tried keeping him up longer, delaying
his last bottle, hoping he'd wake up later during the night. To no avail.

I went back to my baby books and found this French (from France) book which
says (free translation here) "past 4 months your baby doesn't need to wake
up to have a bottle during the night. He might think he's hungry, but in
reality he is confusing his need for food with his need for sleep." The
suggestion, if baby still doesn't do that, is to let him cry, not go to
him - along with advice on establishing a routine and stuff - and,
supposedly, it should pass after a few nights.

Well, we had to do that at one point for Mlle C, because at 8 months old she
started waking up and not being able to go back to sleep alone. So we
explained to her what we would do and eventually it worked. But she was 8
months old, not 4 months! And besides, it was to bring back the situation to
what it was before, i.e. sleeping full nights.

I just don't know about Guillaume. I mean, he's just 5 months old. Some
people say to wait 6 months before doing the "don't go" routine. What do you
think? Any advice?



--
Isabelle
Mlle C 2004-11-27
Guillaume 2006-06-13

Zaz wrote:
Hi there.

Little Guillaume still doesn't sleep full nights. He's just turned 5 months
old and, although DH and I switch turns every other night to give him his
milk, I still can't wait for him to sleep at least 8 hours in a row. He
wakes up at least twice during the night, and no matter at what time we give
him his last bottle and put him to bed - he wakes up between 00:00 and 00:30
and again between 3:30 and 4:00. Sometimes he drinks one or two ounces,
other times a full 7 to 8 ounces.

We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started sleeping
12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up at 8AM. In bed at
9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she slept again between 10 and 12
AM during the day, and again between 2 PM and 5 PM, up to 6 PM sometimes.

I think you got very lucky with Mlle C. Her behavior is
quite uncommon, though normal.

Now, Guillaume is *completely* different. He sleeps through patches of 30-45
minutes during the day, about three to four times. Then he falls like a
rock, usually around 8:30PM or 9PM. We tried keeping him up longer, delaying
his last bottle, hoping he'd wake up later during the night. To no avail.

Not surprising. It's not common for keeping them awake to
lead to better nighttime sleep in babies. Often more and better
daytime sleep leads to more and better nighttime sleep.

I went back to my baby books and found this French (from France) book which
says (free translation here) "past 4 months your baby doesn't need to wake
up to have a bottle during the night. He might think he's hungry, but in
reality he is confusing his need for food with his need for sleep." The
suggestion, if baby still doesn't do that, is to let him cry, not go to
him - along with advice on establishing a routine and stuff - and,
supposedly, it should pass after a few nights.

Frankly, I think that's a crock. While it's true for some
babies, some other babies really *do* need that nighttime feeding.
You can try encouraging more feeding during the daytime, but he
simply may not be ready to go a full 8 hours without eating. His
little stomach is only the size of his fist, after all.

I just don't know about Guillaume. I mean, he's just 5 months old. Some
people say to wait 6 months before doing the "don't go" routine. What do you
think? Any advice?

I think even 6 months is pushing it. I think you do
everything else you can to encourage good nighttime sleep--
routines, good daytime sleep, plenty of daytime feeds, maybe
cluster feeds in the evening, etc.--but if he still needs to
eat, then feed the boy. Yes, it's a pain, but some babies
just need it. It is true that some babies wake for other
reasons, but if you've done your best to deal with other
possible reasons, there's no way I'd let a five (or six, or
even eight) month old baby cry with hunger during the night.
(And mine did keep up a middle of the night feeding for
longer than most other babies, but they just seemed to need
it and I'd much rather handle a 10 minute middle of the
night feeding for a few more months than deal with hours of
screaming for nights and nights on end.)

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Zaz wrote:


snip

We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started
sleeping 12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up at
8AM. In bed at 9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she slept again
between 10 and 12 AM during the day, and again between 2 PM and 5 PM, up
to 6 PM sometimes.

I think you got very lucky with Mlle C. Her behavior is
quite uncommon, though normal.


I know. We did get lucky, and still are. She still naps between 2 to 4 hours
every afternoon!


snip

Frankly, I think that's a crock. While it's true for some
babies, some other babies really *do* need that nighttime feeding.
You can try encouraging more feeding during the daytime, but he
simply may not be ready to go a full 8 hours without eating. His
little stomach is only the size of his fist, after all.

That's what I thought too, and it really did make me uneasy.


snip


I think even 6 months is pushing it. I think you do
everything else you can to encourage good nighttime sleep--
routines, good daytime sleep, plenty of daytime feeds, maybe
cluster feeds in the evening, etc.--but if he still needs to
eat, then feed the boy.

As for more daytime feeds, that is utterly impossible. Guillaume eats when
he eats, and if I offer him more than he wants, he'll just start screaming.
I had somewhat of a row about that with my daily babysitter the other day,
because I saw her forcing a bottle down my baby's mouth, while he was
screaming. Oh, he did end up drinking from it, but I felt it was more from
being tired of resisting than real hunger. At any rate, I didn't like it and
told her that if he won't take the bottle, even if he's been more than 4
hours without feeding, then let him be. He was breastfed for 3 full months
(and then some), and it's not because he now takes bottles that we'll stop
feeding him on demand! Now, aren't I glad I work from home and can monitor
those kinds of things...

Snip


Best wishes,
Ericka

Zaz wrote:
Hi there.

Little Guillaume still doesn't sleep full nights. He's just turned 5
months old and, although DH and I switch turns every other night to
give him his milk, I still can't wait for him to sleep at least 8
hours in a row. He wakes up at least twice during the night, and no
matter at what time we give him his last bottle and put him to bed -
he wakes up between 00:00 and 00:30 and again between 3:30 and 4:00.
Sometimes he drinks one or two ounces, other times a full 7 to 8
ounces.
We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started
sleeping 12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up
at 8AM. In bed at 9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she
slept again between 10 and 12 AM during the day, and again between 2
PM and 5 PM, up to 6 PM sometimes.
Now, Guillaume is *completely* different. He sleeps through patches
of 30-45 minutes during the day, about three to four times. Then he
falls like a rock, usually around 8:30PM or 9PM. We tried keeping him
up longer, delaying his last bottle, hoping he'd wake up later during
the night. To no avail.
I went back to my baby books and found this French (from France) book
which says (free translation here) "past 4 months your baby doesn't
need to wake up to have a bottle during the night. He might think
he's hungry, but in reality he is confusing his need for food with
his need for sleep." The suggestion, if baby still doesn't do that,
is to let him cry, not go to him - along with advice on establishing a
routine and stuff - and,
supposedly, it should pass after a few nights.

Well, we had to do that at one point for Mlle C, because at 8 months
old she started waking up and not being able to go back to sleep
alone. So we explained to her what we would do and eventually it
worked. But she was 8 months old, not 4 months! And besides, it was
to bring back the situation to what it was before, i.e. sleeping full
nights.
I just don't know about Guillaume. I mean, he's just 5 months old.
Some people say to wait 6 months before doing the "don't go" routine.
What do you think? Any advice?

In my mind and world, babies are babies until after a year, at least. And
babies generally do not sleep through the night. Of course some do, but
many more do not. So in our house, I give babies the first year, where I do
not begrudge them their night wakings. If they wake, I feed them and put
them back down. Personally speaking, I don't buy the "babies over 4 months
old don't really need to eat during the night.." line of thinking. Babies
do so much growing and developing (both emotionally, socially, mentally, as
well as physically), that I think if they need more food, then they need
more food. I just think that 4 months (and even 6 or 8), is too young to
expect them to sleep through the night. Again, some may, but that's icing
on the cake, not to be expected.

I also have used the CIO method, but I don't believe in using it with babies
that young. I did a CIO with Addie when she was 14 months old -- she was
still waking once or twice a night to eat, and usually eating about 8-9
ounces at a time. But, she wasn't eating much during the day, at all. Once
I did the CIO (it only took one long night (2 hours), then the next night
she went back to sleep with a pat pat on the back), she (miraculously!)
began to eat more during the day. Her apetite compeltely did a turn around.
So, I'd keep offering him milk at night, and perhaps see if you can get him
to eat more during the day -- both solids and milk. Maybe if he gets more
calories during the day, he will not need to wake up in the night to eat.

Hugs. That first year is tough, and the lack of sleep is generally why.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03
Addison Grace, 9/30/04

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up
your own User ID and Password

Zaz wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Zaz wrote:


snip
We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started
sleeping 12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up at
8AM. In bed at 9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she slept again
between 10 and 12 AM during the day, and again between 2 PM and 5 PM, up
to 6 PM sometimes.
I think you got very lucky with Mlle C. Her behavior is
quite uncommon, though normal.

I know. We did get lucky, and still are. She still naps between 2 to 4 hours
every afternoon!

Mine have all been good sleepers (the older ones
had afternoon naps until they were 5 years old, and G.
still naps almost every afternoon at 3.5 years old),
but they also all woke for a middle of the night feeding
for quite some time. I tried a few times with #1 to
stop those feedings prematurely, but every attempt was
a disaster until he just gave it up on his own.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
. ..

In my mind and world, babies are babies until after a year, at least. And
babies generally do not sleep through the night. Of course some do, but
many more do not. So in our house, I give babies the first year, where I
do not begrudge them their night wakings. If they wake, I feed them and
put them back down. Personally speaking, I don't buy the "babies over 4
months old don't really need to eat during the night.." line of thinking.
Babies do so much growing and developing (both emotionally, socially,
mentally, as well as physically), that I think if they need more food,
then they need more food. I just think that 4 months (and even 6 or 8),
is too young to expect them to sleep through the night. Again, some may,
but that's icing on the cake, not to be expected.

I also have used the CIO method, but I don't believe in using it with
babies that young. I did a CIO with Addie when she was 14 months old --
she was still waking once or twice a night to eat, and usually eating
about 8-9 ounces at a time. But, she wasn't eating much during the day,
at all. Once I did the CIO (it only took one long night (2 hours), then
the next night she went back to sleep with a pat pat on the back), she
(miraculously!) began to eat more during the day. Her apetite compeltely
did a turn around. So, I'd keep offering him milk at night, and perhaps
see if you can get him to eat more during the day -- both solids and milk.
Maybe if he gets more calories during the day, he will not need to wake up
in the night to eat.

Hugs. That first year is tough, and the lack of sleep is generally why.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03
Addison Grace, 9/30/04

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up
your own User ID and Password



Sounds like it would be worth waiting, if you can do it in one night at 14
months. We tried it with our DD at 6 months, and after 5 nights of more and
more waking and screaming each night, we gave up and started co-sleeping.
I'd prefer not to co-sleep, but for us, at the moment (nearly 9 months) it
allows us to sleep pretty well as DH doesn't wake, and I just have to put a
nipple in DD's mouth and she's soon back asleep. No getting up so I'm back
to sleep pretty quickly too.

I'm not really advocating co-sleeping, just contrasting it with our lack of
success with CIO. Of course if we'd persevered, it may well have worked and
we'd have had DD sleeping through the night in her own cot. Or it might not
have... Who knows?

Cheers,
Liz

OK. I give up. What's CIO?


"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
. ..
Zaz wrote:
Hi there.

Little Guillaume still doesn't sleep full nights. He's just turned 5
months old and, although DH and I switch turns every other night to
give him his milk, I still can't wait for him to sleep at least 8
hours in a row. He wakes up at least twice during the night, and no
matter at what time we give him his last bottle and put him to bed -
he wakes up between 00:00 and 00:30 and again between 3:30 and 4:00.
Sometimes he drinks one or two ounces, other times a full 7 to 8
ounces.
We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started
sleeping 12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up
at 8AM. In bed at 9PM, up at 9AM. It was just wonderful. And she
slept again between 10 and 12 AM during the day, and again between 2
PM and 5 PM, up to 6 PM sometimes.
Now, Guillaume is *completely* different. He sleeps through patches
of 30-45 minutes during the day, about three to four times. Then he
falls like a rock, usually around 8:30PM or 9PM. We tried keeping him
up longer, delaying his last bottle, hoping he'd wake up later during
the night. To no avail.
I went back to my baby books and found this French (from France) book
which says (free translation here) "past 4 months your baby doesn't
need to wake up to have a bottle during the night. He might think
he's hungry, but in reality he is confusing his need for food with
his need for sleep." The suggestion, if baby still doesn't do that,
is to let him cry, not go to him - along with advice on establishing a
routine and stuff - and,
supposedly, it should pass after a few nights.

Well, we had to do that at one point for Mlle C, because at 8 months
old she started waking up and not being able to go back to sleep
alone. So we explained to her what we would do and eventually it
worked. But she was 8 months old, not 4 months! And besides, it was
to bring back the situation to what it was before, i.e. sleeping full
nights.
I just don't know about Guillaume. I mean, he's just 5 months old.
Some people say to wait 6 months before doing the "don't go" routine.
What do you think? Any advice?

In my mind and world, babies are babies until after a year, at least. And
babies generally do not sleep through the night. Of course some do, but
many more do not. So in our house, I give babies the first year, where I
do not begrudge them their night wakings. If they wake, I feed them and
put them back down. Personally speaking, I don't buy the "babies over 4
months old don't really need to eat during the night.." line of thinking.
Babies do so much growing and developing (both emotionally, socially,
mentally, as well as physically), that I think if they need more food,
then they need more food. I just think that 4 months (and even 6 or 8),
is too young to expect them to sleep through the night. Again, some may,
but that's icing on the cake, not to be expected.

I also have used the CIO method, but I don't believe in using it with
babies that young. I did a CIO with Addie when she was 14 months old --
she was still waking once or twice a night to eat, and usually eating
about 8-9 ounces at a time. But, she wasn't eating much during the day,
at all. Once I did the CIO (it only took one long night (2 hours), then
the next night she went back to sleep with a pat pat on the back), she
(miraculously!) began to eat more during the day. Her apetite compeltely
did a turn around. So, I'd keep offering him milk at night, and perhaps
see if you can get him to eat more during the day -- both solids and milk.
Maybe if he gets more calories during the day, he will not need to wake up
in the night to eat.

Hugs. That first year is tough, and the lack of sleep is generally why.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03
Addison Grace, 9/30/04

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up
your own User ID and Password

"Zaz" wrote in message
...
OK. I give up. What's CIO?


snip

Cry it out.

Liz

"Zaz" wrote in message
...
Hi there.

Little Guillaume still doesn't sleep full nights. He's just turned 5
months old and, although DH and I switch turns every other night to give
him his milk, I still can't wait for him to sleep at least 8 hours in a
row. He wakes up at least twice during the night, and no matter at what
time we give him his last bottle and put him to bed - he wakes up between
00:00 and 00:30 and again between 3:30 and 4:00. Sometimes he drinks one
or two ounces, other times a full 7 to 8 ounces.

We never had that problem with Mlle C; at 6 months old, she started
sleeping 12 hours in a row. Always, like a clock. In bed at 8PM, up at
8AM. You know I had similar. #1 slept though 8:30-8:30 every night from 8
weeks. Lovely. Obviously something brilliant I did.
#2 started sleeping through more often than not a year ago. She was just
over 2.
I treated them both the same as far as sleeping patterns went. At 8 weeks
with #2 I was still up 2-3 times. At 18 months I was still up usually 2x.
#1 just slept better and there was nothing I was prepared to do that would
have got #2 sleeping like that.
Just thank your lucky stars for a good first baby!
Debbie

Zaz wrote:

I just don't know about Guillaume. I mean, he's just 5 months old. Some
people say to wait 6 months before doing the "don't go" routine. What do you
think? Any advice?

Some possible tips that have worked for others:

1. Cutting down gradually on the formula during the night (either by
putting less in the bottle, or by diluting it a little more each night)
and encouraging him to make up the difference in the daytime, so that he
has a gradual and manageable shift into taking all his milk by day
rather than by night.

2. Using sugar water to settle him at night rather than formula. This
is *not* meant to be a long-term solution! The idea is that if this
settles him a few nights running, then you know for sure that he's just
wanting something sweet to suck rather than actually needing food. Then
you can move on from there to finding other ways to settle him. The big
drawback of this, of course, is that if he really is hungry then he'll
be awake again an hour later screaming for food and you'll have lost
more sleep than if you fed him in the first place.

3. If, having used either of the above methods, you've established that
he has reached the stage of not needing the milk at night but he's still
waking up, it works perfectly well to comfort him but not feed him as a
way of getting him used to going back to sleep. So, for example, you
could go in and pick him up for a cuddle, then put him down again, then
pick him up again if he cries again, then put him down again, and keep
doing this for as long as it takes until he falls asleep. Or maybe you
only do the pick-ups every few minutes and, in between, stand there
patting him gently and shushing him so that he knows you're still there
and doesn't become too upset. If he's normally comforted by sucking a
dummy, you could try that as well. This way, he may be upset over the
change of usual custom, but he won't be wondering where on earth
everyone's got to.

That method does often take several days to work and, while you're
trying it, you'll be awake for longer during the night than if you just
fed him, so don't try it unless you're prepared to stick it out and be
very consistent for several nights. Also - I'm sure this goes without
saying, but don't try it unless you really have established first that
he doesn't need a bottle of milk during the night!

By the way, if a baby knows how to fall asleep in his cot at the
beginning of the night he's more likely to be able to get back to sleep
on his own if he wakes during the night. This certainly isn't an
invariable thing, but if you do want to teach him to get back to sleep
on his own during the night then it would be worth starting by making
sure that he can go to sleep in his cot at the beginning of the night
and at nap time (i.e., still awake when he's put in his cot and then
falls asleep, rather than being asleep already when he's put down).

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but the most important thing
to remember is - this too shall pass, regardless of what you do!


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell