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teaching algebra to elementary school students



 
 
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  #221  
Old February 5th 08, 07:49 PM posted to misc.kids
Clisby
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Posts: 249
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students



Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Beliavsky wrote:

On Jan 18, 8:58 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Jeff wrote:

wrote:

On Jan 17, 5:58�am, Beliavsky wrote:

I wrote that MCAS were "a factor", not "the only factor", in an
earlier message, and I agree that visiting aschoolmakes sense. I
have not heard of neighborhood public schools offering open houses
for
potential residents, though.

Schooltours are open to anyone -- they surely aren't going to check
your address!
--Helen S.

Actually, in most places they're not. They usually have locked doors.
And visitor must report directly to the office to sign in. Unless you
have a reason to be there, they usually won't let you in.

If they're having aschooltour, then they're expecting
people, so of course they're going to let people in! (She didn't
say schools are open to anyone; she saidschool*tours* are open.)
And if they don't have tours, then they'll be expecting to talk to
people by appointment, at which point they'll let you in to
talk and probably give you a little tour too.



I emailed the principal of a neighborhood public school that we are
considering for our children (we'd need to buy a house),
and asked her if we could visit. Here was her reply, slightly edited:

Dear Mr. XYZ,
I am sorry, but we do not provide opportunities for families who do
not
live in our ABC School district to visit. We have an incredible
number of requests, and no staffing for this purpose.
Signed,
The principal

I understand that individual tours for anyone interested could take up
too much time, but at least a few scheduled events for the general
public would be nice. The "incredible" demand for this is being
ignored. Private schools certainly allow parents to visit, as do
colleges. My wife and I did visit our son's Catholic school before
enrolling him. Monopolistic government schools have much less reason
to be accomodative. When it is difficult to get qualitative
information about schools, many people will fall back on quantitative
measures such as test scores.



But surely one can see both sides of the situation.
Private schools *have* to sell themselves to the parents. That's
how they get students. That is not how public schools get their
students.


That depends on where they are. I've lived in places where the public
schools *have* to woo middle- and upper-middle-class parents (of zoned
or out-of-zone kids), or those parents will head off to private school
in a heartbeat, and never look back. And of course the schools have an
incentive to capture those kids - they want their test scores to be
higher. I can only assume the school Beliavsky is looking at already
has high test scores.

Clisby


Private schools budget for this sort of thing. Obviously,
this particular public school doesn't have the budget for staff to
serve this purpose. There's a lot of pressure on most public school
systems to funnel as high a proportion of the budget to the classroom
rather than administration--something you would probably push for if
your children were in that school's classrooms.
That said, you are hardly out of options. Contact the school's
PTA/PTO and find out if they can arrange some parents to talk to you,
or see if you can attend a meeting, or some such thing.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #222  
Old February 5th 08, 08:17 PM posted to misc.kids
Banty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,278
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

In article , Clisby says...



Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Beliavsky wrote:

On Jan 18, 8:58 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Jeff wrote:

wrote:

On Jan 17, 5:58�am, Beliavsky wrote:

I wrote that MCAS were "a factor", not "the only factor", in an
earlier message, and I agree that visiting aschoolmakes sense. I
have not heard of neighborhood public schools offering open houses
for
potential residents, though.

Schooltours are open to anyone -- they surely aren't going to check
your address!
--Helen S.

Actually, in most places they're not. They usually have locked doors.
And visitor must report directly to the office to sign in. Unless you
have a reason to be there, they usually won't let you in.

If they're having aschooltour, then they're expecting
people, so of course they're going to let people in! (She didn't
say schools are open to anyone; she saidschool*tours* are open.)
And if they don't have tours, then they'll be expecting to talk to
people by appointment, at which point they'll let you in to
talk and probably give you a little tour too.


I emailed the principal of a neighborhood public school that we are
considering for our children (we'd need to buy a house),
and asked her if we could visit. Here was her reply, slightly edited:

Dear Mr. XYZ,
I am sorry, but we do not provide opportunities for families who do
not
live in our ABC School district to visit. We have an incredible
number of requests, and no staffing for this purpose.
Signed,
The principal

I understand that individual tours for anyone interested could take up
too much time, but at least a few scheduled events for the general
public would be nice. The "incredible" demand for this is being
ignored. Private schools certainly allow parents to visit, as do
colleges. My wife and I did visit our son's Catholic school before
enrolling him. Monopolistic government schools have much less reason
to be accomodative. When it is difficult to get qualitative
information about schools, many people will fall back on quantitative
measures such as test scores.



But surely one can see both sides of the situation.
Private schools *have* to sell themselves to the parents. That's
how they get students. That is not how public schools get their
students.


That depends on where they are. I've lived in places where the public
schools *have* to woo middle- and upper-middle-class parents (of zoned
or out-of-zone kids),


Sometimes my kid is pretty 'zoned' - can we move where you are? :-)


or those parents will head off to private school
in a heartbeat, and never look back. And of course the schools have an
incentive to capture those kids - they want their test scores to be
higher. I can only assume the school Beliavsky is looking at already
has high test scores.


Which may or may not mean they're the best school. Or the best school for a
particular child.

It very much depends on the specifics.

Banty

  #223  
Old February 5th 08, 08:22 PM posted to misc.kids
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,293
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

Clisby wrote:


Ericka Kammerer wrote:


But surely one can see both sides of the situation.
Private schools *have* to sell themselves to the parents. That's
how they get students. That is not how public schools get their
students.


That depends on where they are. I've lived in places where the public
schools *have* to woo middle- and upper-middle-class parents (of zoned
or out-of-zone kids), or those parents will head off to private school
in a heartbeat, and never look back. And of course the schools have an
incentive to capture those kids - they want their test scores to be
higher. I can only assume the school Beliavsky is looking at already
has high test scores.


But in that case, they are still concerned with students
in boundary who may or may not opt for private school, not
so much potential buyers. We have those issues at some
schools in our district, but I don't see a lot of time and
money being spent to recruit potential home buyers. They
publicize events and orientations and programs, but aren't
out there begging folks to come schedule a private tour of
the school, nor do they put on a big dog-and-pony show to try
to entice new students. The main opportunities are the usual
spring orientation for students who'll be entering the lowest
grade level at the school (those are going on now, in our
area), the open houses just before school starts, and the
"Back to School" nights shortly after school starts.

Besides all that, it strikes me that based on his
previous postings, Beliavsky isn't even going to entertain
a school likely to have these perception issues, regardless
of the situation.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #224  
Old February 5th 08, 10:17 PM posted to misc.kids
Clisby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students



Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Clisby wrote:



Ericka Kammerer wrote:



But surely one can see both sides of the situation.
Private schools *have* to sell themselves to the parents. That's
how they get students. That is not how public schools get their
students.



That depends on where they are. I've lived in places where the public
schools *have* to woo middle- and upper-middle-class parents (of zoned
or out-of-zone kids), or those parents will head off to private school
in a heartbeat, and never look back. And of course the schools have
an incentive to capture those kids - they want their test scores to be
higher. I can only assume the school Beliavsky is looking at already
has high test scores.



But in that case, they are still concerned with students
in boundary who may or may not opt for private school, not
so much potential buyers.


In the cases I was thinking of, I don't believe they were concerned with
potential buyers - they were concerned with potential transfers from out
of zone. I'd say when the principal personally meets with a group from
out of the zone, explains in detail how to naviagate the transfer
process, and gives tips on how to fill out the forms to maximize your
chances - they're interested in you, all right.

Clisby


We have those issues at some
schools in our district, but I don't see a lot of time and
money being spent to recruit potential home buyers. They
publicize events and orientations and programs, but aren't
out there begging folks to come schedule a private tour of
the school, nor do they put on a big dog-and-pony show to try
to entice new students. The main opportunities are the usual
spring orientation for students who'll be entering the lowest
grade level at the school (those are going on now, in our
area), the open houses just before school starts, and the
"Back to School" nights shortly after school starts.

Besides all that, it strikes me that based on his
previous postings, Beliavsky isn't even going to entertain
a school likely to have these perception issues, regardless
of the situation.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #225  
Old February 5th 08, 10:34 PM posted to misc.kids
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,293
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

Clisby wrote:


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Clisby wrote:



Ericka Kammerer wrote:



But surely one can see both sides of the situation.
Private schools *have* to sell themselves to the parents. That's
how they get students. That is not how public schools get their
students.


That depends on where they are. I've lived in places where the
public schools *have* to woo middle- and upper-middle-class parents
(of zoned or out-of-zone kids), or those parents will head off to
private school in a heartbeat, and never look back. And of course
the schools have an incentive to capture those kids - they want their
test scores to be higher. I can only assume the school Beliavsky is
looking at already has high test scores.


But in that case, they are still concerned with students
in boundary who may or may not opt for private school, not
so much potential buyers.


In the cases I was thinking of, I don't believe they were concerned with
potential buyers - they were concerned with potential transfers from out
of zone. I'd say when the principal personally meets with a group from
out of the zone, explains in detail how to naviagate the transfer
process, and gives tips on how to fill out the forms to maximize your
chances - they're interested in you, all right.


I'm sure they are, but this isn't likely to apply
if there isn't at least some version of school choice. For
instance, in my area you can "pupil place," but it's not
easy to do and you're on your own for transportation. It's
simply not an option for the vast majority, so it's not really
a viable option for recruiting significant numbers of students.
By and large, you go to your assigned school, you apply for
a magnet school, or you pay for private school. It's a small
percentage of students who are pupil placed, and most of those
for reasons like their local school not providing an essential
program for the particular student or a parent working in the
school in which the child is placed.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #226  
Old February 8th 08, 07:05 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education
Chookie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,085
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

In article
,
Beliavsky wrote:

On Jan 22, 5:53*am, Chookie wrote:

Would you, by any chance, believe that both of the following propositions
are
true?

(a) *Teachers should be rewarded on the basis of how well their students do
on standardised tests.

(b) *People of certain ethnic groups/races do more or less well on
standardised tests because some ethnic groups/races are innately
cleverer/stupider than others.


I think (b) is true, when regarded as a statement about averages.


Of course we're talking about averages! We're discussing groups.

Jason Malloy of the Gene Expression blog has discussed the evidence at
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/jam...-truth_296.php
in a post "James Watson Tells the Inconvenient Truth: Faces the
Consequences". I think the the opening paragraph is worth quoting:


I don't. Even going by the abstracts, this blogger is not dealing honestly
with the Rindermann paper, which is arguing for the g-theory of intelligence,
AFAICT.

I support (a) as well, with test scores used as one factor. Part of
the original article, which I did quote, said

"teachers are being measured on how much their students improve on
annual standardized tests."

The word "improve" is key. The students' scores on a test from a year
ago should serve to control for innate ability, so looking at changes
in scores makes sense. This should be tested empirically.


That assumes that improvement of clever and stupid people is identical, but it
is (IMO) quite likely that stupid people don't improve at the same rate as
clever ones.

I would oppose teachers being evaluated based on absolute scores of students
without accounting for relevant demographic variables in some way.


There's the rub -- it's so expensive and difficult to do that the teachers'
bonuses would all be swallowed up long before it was done.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/
  #227  
Old February 8th 08, 10:07 PM posted to misc.kids
Caledonia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 255
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

On Feb 5, 12:33 pm, Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 5, 1:20 am, Caledonia wrote:

On Feb 4, 5:13 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
I suspect that in Beliavsky's case, things may not be
ask bleak as the principal's letter suggests. For instance, if
there is a new family orientation or a kindergarten orientation,
it may not be billed as something for outsiders, but I doubt
they'll be checking for proof of residence at the door. Or perhaps
the principal interpreted the request as being for an individual
tour, but there are group orientations available at some point.


There is typically a K-orientation in all MA towns, one in the Spring,
one in the late Summer -- but to be honest, I know of no public K's
which offer tours for prospective 'I'm thinking about moving here but
maybe, maybe not' parents.


As usual, you are being snide. Of course if you are visiting a school
to see if you want to send your children there, that means you have
not yet decided on a school. A group tour would be fine, which is what
colleges offer, and it could be conducted by volunteers. The concern
has been raised that volunteers could give incorrect information about
school policies, but I would not rely on them for that purpose, since
a school handbook listing policies can often be found online. It is
true that non-residents don't yet pay the property taxes that fund a
school, but they do pay income taxes here in Massachusetts, which is
another source of school funding (the state transfers some money to
the school districts).


I wasn't aware of the snide tone -- I am not aware of public schools
in MA offering tours for prospective residents. I'd be curious to know
which ones do, if you're willing to share.

For many districts -- located in towns with a high SES -- the bulk of
school funding *is* generated by local property tax.

Caledonia
  #228  
Old February 8th 08, 10:26 PM posted to misc.kids
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 125
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

On Feb 8, 1:07�pm, Caledonia wrote:

I wasn't aware of the snide tone -- I am not aware of public schools
in MA offering tours for prospective residents. I'd be curious to know
which ones do, if you're willing to share.


I think it was the way you summed up his position as "I'm thinking
about moving here, but maybe, maybe not" that struck some people as
sounding snide, as if you felt he was expressing a sense of privilege
and were mocking that. (I didn't think you were, btw, but can see how
someone could.) It's that whole thing about not being able to read
tone of voice on the internet.

--Helen S.
  #229  
Old February 9th 08, 12:02 AM posted to misc.kids
Beliavsky
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Posts: 453
Default teaching algebra to elementary school students

On Feb 8, 4:26Â*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 8, 1:07�pm, Caledonia wrote:


I wasn't aware of the snide tone -- I am not aware of public schools
in MA offering tours for prospective residents. I'd be curious to know
which ones do, if you're willing to share.


I think it was the way you summed up his position as "I'm thinking
about moving here, but maybe, maybe not" that struck some people as
sounding snide, as if you felt he was expressing a sense of privilege
and were mocking that. (I didn't think you were, btw, but can see how
someone could.) It's that whole thing about not being able to read
tone of voice on the internet.


Yes, that was it.
 




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