If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
"HanK" wrote in message ... "CME" Its funny I was thinking of you lot last Saturday night when some bint was trying to remove my tonsels whilst telling me how much she loved her husband and kids. women are like female spiders. Still another enemy diffused HanK And you let her? I think that says more about you than her, proving our point all along. Christine |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
"CME" wrote in message news:Mw6zb.236029$jy.34561@clgrps13... "HanK" wrote in message ... "CME" Its funny I was thinking of you lot last Saturday night when some bint was trying to remove my tonsels whilst telling me how much she loved her husband and kids. women are like female spiders. Still another enemy diffused HanK And you let her? I think that says more about you than her, proving our point all along. Christine More likely hank was out in the barn piling it high. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit for what they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't do it. So rather than talk about what is going on, they withdraw help to teach the little woman a lesson? Well that really puts it back on men to look at it that way. I doubt they are thinking about "teaching her a lesson" - my guess is, they don't like being criticized so they don't do it. Kids are like that. People are like that. Yea, talking about it helps. I'm just offering the counter to the stereotype that "men never help around the house" with the other side that when they do, it's often not good enough. I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge" of the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well. Joelle The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St Augustine Joelle |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
'Kate wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany" Joelle wrote in message ... There are, of course, exceptional men and women who shared duties from the start or have adopted non-traditional roles by choice. 'Kate Yeah and where can I meet them??? lol My husband did more housecleaning than me. He was older - 35 and had to live on his own and clean his own house. I think that makes a difference. Being somone that doesn't care if the bathtub gets disinfected every day or even every week, I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit for what they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't do it. Joelle That is very true. So many of my friends complain about how the husband can't clean right or do laundry right. If someone else is cleaning, how can it be wrong? lol When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked to do laundry in the house. 'Kate Maybe you should spank them like kids then. lol T |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
'Kate wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany" Joelle wrote in message ... There are, of course, exceptional men and women who shared duties from the start or have adopted non-traditional roles by choice. 'Kate Yeah and where can I meet them??? lol My husband did more housecleaning than me. He was older - 35 and had to live on his own and clean his own house. I think that makes a difference. Being somone that doesn't care if the bathtub gets disinfected every day or even every week, I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit for what they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't do it. Joelle That is very true. So many of my friends complain about how the husband can't clean right or do laundry right. If someone else is cleaning, how can it be wrong? lol When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked to do laundry in the house. 'Kate What does surprise me is that women blame it on the man for his behavior when chances are it is learnt behavior. If the man is someone who would purposely ruin clothes to get out of helping around the house, then in my opinion, he wouldn't be around the house. T |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
"Joelle" wrote in message ... I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge" of the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well. Joelle Yeah, interesting that you should say so. When I was living with my wife and I was working full time she had a part time job two evenings a week, I suggested getting someone to help with managing the housework as it was a big load and my sister knew someone who did that for a living. My wife 'did not want someone else in her house' but admitted it was hard to manage. I thought I helped as much as possible when I was home (now I am alone I know the difference between the 'showy' help and the real help but thats a topic for another day!). I guess it gets very territorial. Sometimes my attempts to help out with something would be met with a 'you don't know how to do that properly'. That's not to say that I am denying the 'men are inherently lazy argument' as I think many humans (can we count ourselves here?) will avoid tedious work if they think they can and men in a 'normal' (note the quotes) marriage have every opportunity to do this. Douglas Adams SEP field applies (Someone Else's Problem). Hate to get contentious but some people can also project a real 'o woe is me, I work so hard, I am such a troubled person, life is just so tough, o woe' and don't seem to want to get out of it or be relieved of it. (Not my wife by the way who did lots, was great and I just wish it had worked out). Also standards alone and standards with a kid in the house, the stuff they do and the time you have to spend on them rather than cleaning have got to be different in the real world. Like someone recently posted there is a problem with 'traditional' roles and current real life. Anyone who is a fan of science fiction should have a read of the books of Sherri Tepper, feminist writer with some very interesting ideas about the way we ought to structure society with the genders behaviour as it is. If any of you do read her books I would be interested in your views on the differing social structures she posits as better or at least alternatives. Andrew PS Joelle, don't say things like 'he was older, 35'. It hurts. 35 is not older, it is prime rib from there till at least 45. (Dennis, help me out here?? 35-55, your sexiest years???) :-) PPS As an aside there are some things I am obsessive about in the standards front, such as how clean cutlery and crockery should be. Although once having a kid some things do change, five years ago I would never have imagined being in a position of sticking my poor, naked hand into a toilet bowls water for any reason whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All we need now is me in the kitchen with pots and pans, Kat dealing with the floors and a volunteer for the laundry and bedmaking and we're set as a pretty groovy commune. I also peel potatoes like a demon, its a primary skill of mine. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
'Kate wrote in message ... On 02 Dec 2003 22:07:02 GMT, oaway (Joelle) I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit for what they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't do it. So rather than talk about what is going on, they withdraw help to teach the little woman a lesson? Well that really puts it back on men to look at it that way. I doubt they are thinking about "teaching her a lesson" - my guess is, they don't like being criticized so they don't do it. Kids are like that. People are like that. Yea, talking about it helps. I'm just offering the counter to the stereotype that "men never help around the house" with the other side that when they do, it's often not good enough. I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge" of the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well. I agree. Women do need to give up control to share control of the housework, children, etc.... In the same way that men are needed to assume a more equitable level of work in the home, women need to adjust the way that we think about that work and learn to share responsibility. Sharing responsibility does mean that women will have to stop taking total responsibility, give up control, and learn to effectively communicate needs - to ask and to be heard. It's not easy to change tradition. Mothers/women gain a measure of self-esteem from their ability to parent well, to keep a clean home, to cook and perform other domestic chores well. Some men aren't thrilled with the idea of having more responsibility in the home. It isn't what they've learned "fatherhood" is. A request by the wife could easily be addressed as "she's nagging." Our roles as parents in a two-earner family has changed so fast and we don't have the tools (communication skills, models of functional families, learned roles and scripts) to keep up with that change. It is no wonder the divorce rate has increased. We know the "ideal" but it's awfully hard to find it for ourselves because we're building a brand new framework for the idea of "family." Adjustments like that require constant tweaking and both people in the marriage need to be willing to change how they think of their roles. 'Kate Very good point, it is considered a mark of a 'good woman' to maintain a clean home. Tradition has defined roles. Question. Do you think that both genders should have the same roles? There are some physical differences such as the male inability to breast feed. Should this mean that we take on different roles and if so what should they be, should it affect housework, income generation roles or only child rearing roles. Should mothers be closer to children and fathers more or less superfluous? Not so long ago a dad would have very little to do with child rearing, would they have been missed by the child? Should they be missed? What would you personally consider makes a 'good man' all political considerations aside? Is that what you would have bred with at breeding time or would traditional values have ruled your choice? (not to put too fne a point on it) Andrew (once you have dealt with the above lets move on to the questions of the economy and global warming) |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
es. Should mothers be
closer to children and fathers more or less superfluous? Obviously fathers are not superfluous but I will say and this is only one experience, my husband stayed home and took care of the kids, but there were days when my son was a baby where he would cry all day long and would not be comforted until I came home. He would cry as soon as I picked up the keys to leave (this is at 3 months old!) and he would stop crying when I came in the house. It was really horrible...my husband felt terrible and I don't think he was incompetent or mean to the kid, I think the baby just wanted his mama. I think young babies need mama's in a way that men can't fulfill. It was bad enough to convince me to rearrange things so that when I had my daughter I was home more. Joelle The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St Augustine Joelle |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
"Andrew" wrote in message ... "Joelle" wrote in message ... I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge" of the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well. Joelle Yeah, interesting that you should say so. When I was living with my wife and I was working full time she had a part time job two evenings a week, I suggested getting someone to help with managing the housework as it was a big load and my sister knew someone who did that for a living. My wife 'did not want someone else in her house' but admitted it was hard to manage. I thought I helped as much as possible when I was home (now I am alone I know the difference between the 'showy' help and the real help but thats a topic for another day!). I guess it gets very territorial. Sometimes my attempts to help out with something would be met with a 'you don't know how to do that properly'. That's not to say that I am denying the 'men are inherently lazy argument' as I think many humans (can we count ourselves here?) will avoid tedious work if they think they can and men in a 'normal' (note the quotes) marriage have every opportunity to do this. Douglas Adams SEP field applies (Someone Else's Problem). Hate to get contentious but some people can also project a real 'o woe is me, I work so hard, I am such a troubled person, life is just so tough, o woe' and don't seem to want to get out of it or be relieved of it. (Not my wife by the way who did lots, was great and I just wish it had worked out). Also standards alone and standards with a kid in the house, the stuff they do and the time you have to spend on them rather than cleaning have got to be different in the real world. Like someone recently posted there is a problem with 'traditional' roles and current real life. Anyone who is a fan of science fiction should have a read of the books of Sherri Tepper, feminist writer with some very interesting ideas about the way we ought to structure society with the genders behaviour as it is. If any of you do read her books I would be interested in your views on the differing social structures she posits as better or at least alternatives. Andrew PS Joelle, don't say things like 'he was older, 35'. It hurts. 35 is not older, it is prime rib from there till at least 45. (Dennis, help me out here?? 35-55, your sexiest years???) :-) PPS As an aside there are some things I am obsessive about in the standards front, such as how clean cutlery and crockery should be. Although once having a kid some things do change, five years ago I would never have imagined being in a position of sticking my poor, naked hand into a toilet bowls water for any reason whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All we need now is me in the kitchen with pots and pans, Kat dealing with the floors and a volunteer for the laundry and bedmaking and we're set as a pretty groovy commune. I also peel potatoes like a demon, its a primary skill of mine. LOL can I buy you a plane ticket to Canada? Kat and I are almost neighbours and I make a mean dinner as well as do laundry. Christine |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Dr. Phil
'Kate wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:37:28 -0500, "Tiffany" 'Kate wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany" When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked to do laundry in the house. 'Kate Maybe you should spank them like kids then. lol T I've never had to spank a child. I have, on the other hand, been asked to spank.... ah, that's another story altogether. 'Kate That we all need to hear... lol Christine |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Dr. Phil highlighted FOSTER HORROR STORIES TODAY | Kane | Spanking | 0 | July 15th 04 04:43 AM |
Dr. Phil | New York Jen | Breastfeeding | 3 | November 14th 03 09:40 PM |