differing parenting style issue

dragonlady wrote in message ...
In article ,
"Stephanie and Tim" wrote:

Hi. I have an issue with something my DH does. We have discussed it. He has
even agreed to stop the offense. But he hasn't. The thing is, he doesn't
reaaly "see" or understand what, exactly, I am talking about. I can
understand this since I cannot explain it very well. The problem I have is a
2 part one. He hauls DS around my the limbs and his rough houseing is too
rough. The rough house play is the easiest to explain. They rough house. DS
loves it, DH loves it. The problem is that this rough housing frequently
involves DH manhandling DS's body in a way that DS has no control over.
Still fine. DS is giggling madly. The problem is that I think the acceptable
level of DH hurting DS is ZERO when this play is occuring. But it happens
fairly regularly that DS will do something by mistake that hurts him and he
begins to bawl. If DS is having fun, then begins to bawl, it has to be a
fairly painful event. So I mention this to DH, who just says - It was an
accident. The irony is that he comes down like a ton of bricks on DS for
"not being careful" when he accidentally hurts Mommy. This happens all the
time since I do not try very hard to get out of the way of flying elbows and
whatnot. So when I try to tell DH that HE has to be more careful, he just
says that DS is OK and blows me off. This is not OK with me.

I suspect this is a fairly common difference of opinion between moms and
dads: IN GENERAL, I think men are more willing to accept a certain
amount of risk of injury in exchange for play that is enjoyable than
women are willing to accept. That's why it is common for there to be a
male/female split on whether or not to encourage their children
(generally, but not always, boys) to engage in team sports that have a
higher degree of bodily contact (hockey, American football). It has
less to do with "being careful" than with accepting potential injury as
the price you pay to play.



AGREEEEEEEEEED. Put better than I ever could have.

(Please note that I know this isn't universal, I am not commenting on
whether this is inborn or cultural, and I am not holding either position
up as "correct" -- only recognizing that there is a difference on this
particular issue that TENDS to split along gender lines.)

With that as a potential issue -- that is, that there is a genuine
difference of opinion about what level of injury risk is acceptable in
exchange for having a good time -- I'd also want to know a couple of
other things:

Does DH also spend time playing with DS in a way that is NOT rough
housing, or is this the only way in which he interacts?


No, they do reading, and playing on the playground, and running the
trains on the tracks. DH draws cars on the magnadoodle. They both LIKE
the rough housing, in addition to the other play.

(DH may not
really know another way to play with a little boy -- that is, there may
be a need for some education here.)

Does the rough housing ALWAYS go on until DS starts to cry, or does it
usually end before that point? (If it ALWAYS ends in tears, there may
be some hidden hostility; I know in my family many of the men "enjoyed"
tickling me until I was reduced to tears; since I started out laughing,
that seemed to make it OK -- it was years before I understood that this
had really been a form of abuse.)



Ick. I do not think this is it. It definitely does not always result
in tears. I SEE it going on too. He is not trying to hide it, as I
imagine he would. But I will look out for that.

How does DH deal with the injury and the crying on the part of DS? That
is, is he dismissive ("oh, stop crying, it didn't hurt that bad") or
does he comfort DS? (He may not realize that he's trying to teach DS to
be "manly" and not cry -- in which case you have a deeper discussion
about parenting that has to take place.)


He apologizes. He says Daddy did not mean to hurt you, I am sorry. And
kisses him all better. He gives him loving and hugs until DS is
better. This almost always makes DS feel fine.

Does DS often initiate this play, or does DH always initiate it.


DS either sometimes initiates it or seems to. He will, for example,
leap up on DH's back if DH is sitting on the floor and fling his arms
over DH's shoulders. The message that DH and I take out of this is
Daddy pick me up by the arms.

(I ask
this question last deliberately: if this is the ONLY way DH plays with
DS, DS is likely to initiate it whether he genuinely enjoys it or not,
just to have the interaction with his Dad. On the other hand, if he
really likes it, he, too, may be willing to risk getting hurt in
exchange for spending time doing something that is more physically
rambuctious.)




The play in other ways. But I am pretty sure that DS will initiate
rough housing too. I will keep an eye on this too.



The other issue I have is with hauling him around by his limbs. Picture an
example in which DH is trying to get DS to go with him to bathtime. He gives
him the 5 and 2 minute warning. Then asks DS to come for bathtime. When DS
does not come, he repeats and whatnot. All of this is exactly the same as I
would do. But what he does when noncompliance continues is takes him by the
hand and physically lifts him by one arm! And carries him that way! I think
this is rotten on a couple of levels:

- He could pull DS's arm right out if its socket. DH thinks that the fact
that it has not happened yet means it is not going to. (DDDUHHHHHHH)


This is the issue I'd focus on, rather than the difference in parenting
style when DS doesn't listen. Dislocations do happen. About all I can
think of is to ask the doctor to talk to DH about it -- he may need
someone with more credibility than a worried wife to convince him that
this is NOT OK.



BING. Done.

If he isn't yanking, but lifting fairly gently, the risk is less -- most
of the time the dislocations from this come from jerking a child up, or
from a child flinging themself away while an adult is holding thier arm.


No flinging, and DS is not a bolter.

After all, people hang by their hands all the time without injury --
it's the jerking, or having it done when they have no control, that is
more likely to result in injury.

Thanks!!!!!!

S

SNIP

Thanks all. You guys rock.

S

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
...
Barbara Bomberger wrote:
Oh sure. But it stopped me in my tracks for a minute to think -- is my
husband ABUSIVE?? You know?

No, I dont think hes abuse, but........... (dont you hate it when
people do that?).

In my opinion the carrying by the limbs needs to stop now, not
tomorrow, now.

I think the wrong way to go about making this clear to him is to accuse
him of being an abuser. I think the right way would be to say, "look, you
do things differently than I would but I respect you and will just figure
that you know what you're doing, but this is one thing I just feel so
strongly against that I want you to just do it my way this time." Don't
try to convince him you're right, just try to convince him that you want
the final say on this disagreement because you feel more strongly about it
than he does.


Well, I'm with Barbara (funny, that g!) in thinking that she needs to
convince her husband that even though it probably ISN'T abuse, when a kid
comes into the hospital with a dislocated joint, one of the first things
that pops into the minds of caregivers is "ABUSE". And you *don't* want to
be tarred with that brush or have questions about it. This has actually been
a problem for someone (can't remember if it's someone I know IRL or on
Usenet) whose child had joints that popped out of joint with fairly little
provocation (i.e., things she did herself would cause dislocations). They
went through a fairly unpleasant encounter with the people from CPS as a
result. Although they were able to prove themselves innocent without too
much difficulty, it wasn't something they enjoyed and it's certainly not
something you want to volunteer for!

--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
"Nobody died when Clinton lied." -- freeway sign

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"They walk with an unsteady, shambling gate." -- Article in the San Diego
Union Tribune

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

toto wrote in message . ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

Cathy Weeks

On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:

toto wrote in message . ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

Yep. It's fun, but it weakens the shoulder and elbow. I loved it as
a kid too, but apparently it weakens the tissues if you do it enough.
Best to not do it at all, I guess.

Cathy Weeks



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
om...
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I don't do things like that often, but I do them at times. I try to
put a little extra weight on my arms so that it doesn't feel like it's
straining her as much. I do feel a difference.


P. Tierney

Cathy Weeks wrote in message
Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

No you really shouldn't. Kara (dd3) got nursemaid's elbow by doing that. It
scared the crap out of me and we had to go the doctor. I got a very stern
lecture. I had never heard of it or didn't know I shouldn't swing the kids.
It had never happened before.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

In article ,
Barbara Bomberger wrote:

Mostly snipped, but I LOVE this typo! It brings forth some amazing
images. I wonder what such a person would do?


Before I was a family day dare provider,



Wendy

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:05:04 GMT, "toypup" wrote:


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
.. .
But the doctor, talking to me afterwards, said it like this: A kid
rarely has a dislocation from falling of a tree, riding a bike or
whatever. A dislocation is caused by being dragged or swung by a
limb. While it can be accidental, it rarely is.

Oh, puleez. It is fairly easy to do for some children. DS has dislocated
his elbow three times. The first time, I did not drag him or swing him, we
were holding hands jumping up and down. The second time, SIL's then fiance
was playing with him and pulled both his hands up. I was there, the
movement was not a harsh or jerking one. It was quite gentle. He was not
being swung. The third time, he was climbing out of the car and dislocated
it himself. No one was touching him, he did not fall and grab with a
jerking motion, he was just getting out of the car, grabbing my shirt and it
happened. My coworker's child had the same problem. Her ped said for some
children, it's just easy to do. That ER doc was just not a ped.

In general, though, the easy with which it happens is because of the
games we adults played with them swinging them by the arms.. I know
that I partially dislocated my shoulder when I was 18 and I was not
doing anything that should have caused a dislocation. But, I had been
swung around in play by my dad a lot as a child.. I loved it... It
damaged the cartilage though. Once you have had a dislocation, btw,
it becomes easier to do it the next time as well. I finally had to
get it operated on after waking up with my shoulder out (sleeping on
my stomach) and not being able to reach the phone or do anything for
myself. Luckily my son hadn't left for school yet.

The partial dislocation, btw, was for me the most painful injury I
ever had. Labor and delivery could not hold a candle to the pain.
I have a fairly high tolerance for pain, but I was in agony with this
until it went back in. The docs won't try to pop it back either
because it is too easy to cause nerve damage.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens the
child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
"Nobody died when Clinton lied." -- freeway sign

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"They walk with an unsteady, shambling gate." -- Article in the San Diego
Union Tribune

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman