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#61
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
Doan wrote:
So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the "never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere? You have proof all of these were "spanked?" Why is that? Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss it, like some that are spanked do. I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan. Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list might have turned out to do had they not been. I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too. Think they were spanked? I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a little of Toto's "bias" about CP. And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked. http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud of it and want to include it in his biography? Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out and ask him? He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy... " Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda, have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January 2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these critical areas will be available for all people." Doan Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:- On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine. I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time. My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you realized it you always apologized. Thank you." I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline. LaVonne 0:- wrote: toto wrote: On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-" wrote: But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact, "compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted. It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning illegitimate authority. Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive citizens. ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck. 0:-] People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as now adults. And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so. Kane -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#62
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, toto wrote: On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote: So far, of the research that done so, non-cp alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff. There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are much more likely to cooperate with adults. "anecdotal"? What does that prove? It proves that you either have to accept that as her understanding of her experience, or believe she is subjective, biased, possibly a liar, and does not know what she sees. Or it's just an opinion! Now given MY experience of YOU and HER in these newsgroups, which of you do you think I'd chose has having the best experience, the best education, and the most objective viewpoint on the subject under discussion? What you chose to believe is irrelevant to me. Doan You a teacher are you? Worked with children much? Studied child psychology and learning theory as part of a degree program? No. But Dr. Dobson has a Ph.D. and more. Here is what I found with a simple search: "Dobson holds a doctorate in child development from the University of Southern California (1967). He was an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Southern California School of Medicine for fourteen years. He spent seventeen years on the staff of the Children's Hospital of Los Angeles in the Division of Child Development and Medical Genetics. He is a licensed psychologist in California, and is listed in Who's Who in Medicine and Healthcare. He also has a long list of honorary doctorates from various institutions." Are you arguing that we should believe Dr. Dobson now? ;-) Done much time in the classroom with little children? Other than when you were a spanked child, that is? Seen a lot of kids in the classroom have you, for comparative assessment of methods of teaching? I'd presume toto has done all this and more and seen hundreds, possibly thousands of children in learning environments to make such assessments. And she's likely been required to as part of her profession. And you? Me? I am just a little boy who like to point out that the anti-spanking zealotS emperors have no clothes on. Hey, some like LaVonne, doesn't even have a penis! ;-) Doan |
#63
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote: 0:- wrote: ....correction....see *** toto wrote: On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote: So far, of the research that done so, non-cp alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff. There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are much more likely to cooperate with adults. Toto, need I remind you of the mendacious Doan and his posting in ways he considers "clever?" This point has been brought up before. In reference to Straus, which those Doan quotes review critically, the non-CP ... notice he says "CP" and you say "punishment?" While CP is always punishment by definition, not all punishment is CP. Straus's finding was flawed for the purpose of our discussion because he did NOT find non-PUNISHMENT methods less successful but NON-CP methods, three (3) of which were in fact punishment tactics. The fact the subjects did not improve or worsened isn't proof non *** CP methods don't work if they are punishment, but that in lieu of CP they are not much better, maybe even worse. So are you calling for a ban on all punishments? If not, why not? Nope. And Because I don't call for a ban on everything I disagree with. So some, as you admitted, even worse than spanking, yet you don't wan to ban them. I see. Are you calling for support of spanking nationwide? Where have you been? It's legal in all 50 stated, STUPID! How about school paddling? I let it decide on the local levels. If not, why not? It's none of my damn business. Doan |
#64
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, toto wrote: On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote: So far, of the research that done so, non-cp alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff. There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are much more likely to cooperate with adults. "anecdotal"? What does that prove? It proves that you either have to accept that as her understanding of her experience, or believe she is subjective, biased, possibly a liar, and does not know what she sees. Or it's just an opinion! That's how it appeared to me. On the other hand, we seek, in normal life, opinions of people, hopefully, that have higher credibility. My local country store owner, a friend, talks about a medical condition I am interested in. He talked about how he was treated. I listen because he's a friend, but believe it or not I PAY my doctor to give me HIS opinion because he has more knowledge than my friend the retail grocer. Now between you and toto, I consider you the retail grocer...though hardly my friend. Now given MY experience of YOU and HER in these newsgroups, which of you do you think I'd chose has having the best experience, the best education, and the most objective viewpoint on the subject under discussion? What you chose to believe is irrelevant to me. No, if it were you would not be as wonderfully dedicated to responding to my beliefs as represented in my posting here as you are. See how illogical you are, Doan? You are out of touch with reality, even when it's something this simple. I daresay you'd LIKE to not have any relevance concerning my beliefs, but it's obvious through hundreds of posts that you indeed DO. Doan You a teacher are you? Worked with children much? Studied child psychology and learning theory as part of a degree program? I asked you three questions. You answered NOT one of them. Instead you start trying to dodge by bringing up someone else and asking yet another evasive, though stupid question below. Why do you mislead like this, instead of answering the questions that would in fact disqualify you as an expert in comparison to toto? Dishonest maybe, Doan? No. But Dr. Dobson has a Ph.D. and more. Here is what I found with a simple search: I'm more than passing familiar. When a persons training is confounded by his or her beliefs I begin to look at his politics. That is his views about society and how it should be. "Dobson holds a doctorate in child development from the University of Southern California (1967). He was an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Southern California School of Medicine for fourteen years. He spent seventeen years on the staff of the Children's Hospital of Los Angeles in the Division of Child Development and Medical Genetics. He is a licensed psychologist in California, and is listed in Who's Who in Medicine and Healthcare. He also has a long list of honorary doctorates from various institutions." Are you arguing that we should believe Dr. Dobson now? ;-) No, there is more to a person than credentials. If my doctor got four out of five diagnosis incorrect for me, and I survived, I'd not believe him any longer. In the decades of health care he's been wrong once. I forgive him, and of course, being able to think, I know that leaving him for a new doctor that did NOT know me as well as this one does would be risk to take. Dobson has been wrong enough to make me prefer toto over Dobson. I've been observing toto for quite a long time and can find very few things were I'm sure she's wrong. In fact, I can't remember one...and the real world tells me there must be some. In fact, I will declare right now that toto is wrong. I don't know specifically about what, but she has to be, not being infallible. I will say the same about Dobson, and with Dobson there is a laundry list of things that aren't just "wrong" but sickeningly wrong. I'll ask toto when I have a question about the subjects we discuss here, not Dobson. Done much time in the classroom with little children? Other than when you were a spanked child, that is? No response. chuckle Seen a lot of kids in the classroom have you, for comparative assessment of methods of teaching? No response, again. I'd presume toto has done all this and more and seen hundreds, possibly thousands of children in learning environments to make such assessments. And she's likely been required to as part of her profession. And you? Me? I am just a little boy who like to point out that the anti-spanking zealotS emperors have no clothes on. Except you are looking at the wrong people. Most arguments for spanking is done by the "pantsless." Hey, some like LaVonne, doesn't even have a penis! ;-) Presuming by her name she is female, that surprises you? I take it you don't have any females in your life that will allow intimacies. Trust me, none of them do have penises. Though some will lie about it. Fern, for instance. Your closing your commentary in this post with such foolishness makes clear that you had nothing but foolishness in mind. That you do not take this debate seriously and your parents did spank a fool. Doan 0:- -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#65
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote: 0:- wrote: ....correction....see *** toto wrote: On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote: So far, of the research that done so, non-cp alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff. There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are much more likely to cooperate with adults. Toto, need I remind you of the mendacious Doan and his posting in ways he considers "clever?" This point has been brought up before. In reference to Straus, which those Doan quotes review critically, the non-CP ... notice he says "CP" and you say "punishment?" While CP is always punishment by definition, not all punishment is CP. Straus's finding was flawed for the purpose of our discussion because he did NOT find non-PUNISHMENT methods less successful but NON-CP methods, three (3) of which were in fact punishment tactics. The fact the subjects did not improve or worsened isn't proof non *** CP methods don't work if they are punishment, but that in lieu of CP they are not much better, maybe even worse. So are you calling for a ban on all punishments? If not, why not? Nope. And Because I don't call for a ban on everything I disagree with. So some, as you admitted, even worse than spanking, yet you don't wan to ban them. I see. No, you don't "see" at all. You presume with insinuation. I did not discuss "everything" about non-CP punishments. Some might be worse than others, even worse than CP. Those not only do I consider banning, I do not have to campaign for them being banned. THEY ARE BANNED ALREADY. Child protection calls them psychological abuse and they are listed in state statutes in some states. Why would I campaign for a ban on something already banned? Are you calling for support of spanking nationwide? Where have you been? It's legal in all 50 stated, STUPID! I didn't ask you if it was legal, or illegal. I asked if you were calling for SUPPORT nationwide. Do you support spanking? I want to see you put our your lie again...the one where you claim you just support parents making their own choice. After all the years of posting against non-spanking advocates, AND NEVER POSTING AGAINST SPANKING advocates you want us to believe your self delusions? I don't think so. But it's fun to watch you try to sell it, thinking maybe there are some newbies or fools that can't figure you out. How about school paddling? I let it decide on the local levels. It's not a question about "let," it's a question about what YOU believe in. If not, why not? It's none of my damn business. Yes it is unless you think yourself not a member of this society. Refusal to speak, one way or the other is support for an existing condition. Especially when brought to your attention in a newsgroup you have attended so regularly for so many years. It's not like you don't know the issues. So, are you for or against school paddling? Or are you immoral and refuse to take a stand because it's "non of" your "damn business?" Doan The children I worked with, teens, had as a single consistent symptom between them, no matter how mild or severe their mental health problem, the problem of social dysfunction. They simply could not decide and act accordingly, so they did all kinds of rather stupid, and sometimes dangerous behaviors instead...a way of deciding and acting without thinking they decided. My job was to help them understand that they always "decide," and do so when they don't decide. 0:- -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#66
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the "never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere? You have proof all of these were "spanked?" The probability is high, 90%+! Are you now claiming that Albert Einstein were never spanked, AGAIN??? Why is that? Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss it, like some that are spanked do. Hihihi! You did! I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan. Is that what LaVonne claimed? She survived the torture from her parents? ;-) Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list might have turned out to do had they not been. You right. They could turn out just like you! ;-) But they sure seem to be under-represented among great men in history. Do you think Gandhi were spanked? ;-) I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too. Think they were spanked? The probability is high, 90%+. I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a little of Toto's "bias" about CP. Hihihi! A teacher back in the 50's? Hahaha. I just love it when anti-spanking zealotS like you tried hard to fit that square peg into the round hole. ;-) And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked. Nothing in his biography said that he pooped in his diaper either. Does that prove that he did not? You are STUPID! ;-) http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud of it and want to include it in his biography? It's one of the ordinary things that happenned to almost everyone, why would any include that in his bio? I bet it didn't said that he was ever punished either. Are you claiming that he was never punished too? Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out and ask him? Go ahead and report back to us, ok? ;-) He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy... " Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda, have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January 2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these critical areas will be available for all people." You! Great people. What your points? Doan Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:- Your STUPIDITY is duly noted. ;-) Doan On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine. I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time. My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you realized it you always apologized. Thank you." I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline. LaVonne 0:- wrote: toto wrote: On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-" wrote: But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact, "compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted. It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning illegitimate authority. Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive citizens. ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck. 0:-] People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as now adults. And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so. Kane -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#67
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when isnt a spanking neccesary?
Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the "never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere? You have proof all of these were "spanked?" The probability is high, 90%+! Your proof being? A percentage is not proof of an individual event. Are you now claiming that Albert Einstein were never spanked, AGAIN??? Since I didn't claim that before I could hardly be expected to do it again. I posted the biographical information on him and his childhood. Why is that? Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss it, like some that are spanked do. Hihihi! You did! And? I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan. Is that what LaVonne claimed? She survived the torture from her parents? ;-) I've no idea. I don't read minds as you seem to think you can do. Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list might have turned out to do had they not been. You right. They could turn out just like you! ;-) But they sure seem to be under-represented among great men in history. Do you think Gandhi were spanked? ;-) Do you? And there was a considerable population that did not consider Gandhi great. And in fact hated him intensely. You speak from a biased western perspective. I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too. Think they were spanked? The probability is high, 90%+. Probability doesn't answer the question. Gates biography would come closer. I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a little of Toto's "bias" about CP. Hihihi! A teacher back in the 50's? Hahaha. I just love it when anti-spanking zealotS like you tried hard to fit that square peg into the round hole. ;-) Odd, I went to school before then, and in the fifties. I knew a lot of teachers that did not support spanking. Bill was born on October 28, 1955. Do you wish to claim she spanked him from birth, because she was a teacher in the 50's? And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked. Nothing in his biography said that he pooped in his diaper either. Does that prove that he did not? You are STUPID! ;-) I didn't claim proof he had not been. So your question is rather stupid. Nothing in his biography says he has a criminal record either. http://beginnersinvest.about.com/cs/...llgatesmug.htm "Busted! Bill Gates The richest man in the world was arrested in New Mexico on December 13, 1977. Not even he can hide from his past! Smile!" I wonder how serious a traffic violation it was to warrant his arrest and mug shot. Whew! Yet, it doesn't mean a thing. The speculation is, Doan, was it likely that he was spanked? Somewhere it's very possible there is information that he was...but if there is not...? http://www.answers.com/topic/bill-gates Looks like his parents had a problem, and looks like they used another tactic than CP, what do you think? "In the introduction before his interview with Bill Gates, the BBC's Jeremy Paxman said that the young Gates was "a difficult little sod whose parents ended up sending him to a child psychologist because they thought he was underachieving."" Since they did a background on him do you think it unlikely they did not ask about childhood discipline and had he been spanked it would NOT have been mentioned in "Spank Happy Britain?" I find it hard to reconcile a family that turns to a psychologist with them being spankers. And just for UNDERACHIEVING. Had he been a really difficult child he'd have been sent to a psychologist for sure. http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud of it and want to include it in his biography? It's one of the ordinary things that happenned to almost everyone, why would any include that in his bio? Are you saying it's not in MLK's or Ted Turner's bios? Because it's often mentioned in people's bios when it happens. I bet it didn't said that he was ever punished either. Are you claiming that he was never punished too? Are you asking if everything that is not in his bio I would claimed therefor happened? Your logic is wonderfully creative Doan. Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out and ask him? Go ahead and report back to us, ok? ;-) You are arguing it's likely he was spanked, Doan. Not I. He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy... " Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda, have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January 2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these critical areas will be available for all people." You! Me! What?! Great people. What your points? Well, it could be that you bringing up "great people" that have likely been spanked is an empty claim to support the practice of spanking as having good outcomes. And the people we are discussing may not be "good" at all. We have little proof. Many have some well known bad attributes. Do you wish to attribute them to NOT being spanked? Doan Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:- Your STUPIDITY is duly noted. ;-) Anyone tapping your posting archives would have little difficulty in more than two posts of noting that you are unwaveringly in support of all pro spanking arguments, and opposed to all anti-spanking arguments...and in addition are of questionable honestly when you claim to be against beating children, but do NOT speak up with your cohort defends parental beating of children. Doan 0:- On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine. I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time. My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you realized it you always apologized. Thank you." I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline. LaVonne 0:- wrote: toto wrote: On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-" wrote: But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact, "compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted. It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning illegitimate authority. Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive citizens. ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck. 0:-] People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as now adults. And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so. Kane -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
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