when isnt a spanking neccesary?

Doan wrote:
So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like
Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the
"never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere?

You have proof all of these were "spanked?"

Why is that?

Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss
it, like some that are spanked do.

I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan.

Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list
might have turned out to do had they not been.

I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and
programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too.

Think they were spanked?

I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a
little of Toto's "bias" about CP.

And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked.

http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp
I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud
of it and want to include it in his biography?

Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation
to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out
and ask him?

He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy...

" Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda,
have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January
2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health
and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these
critical areas will be available for all people."


Doan

Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:-




On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine.

I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open
relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time.
My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or
made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you
realized it you always apologized. Thank you."

I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I
am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline.

LaVonne
0:- wrote:

toto wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-"
wrote:

But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and
go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted
behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact,
"compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted.

It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive
measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will
make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding
them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices
and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning
illegitimate authority.

Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive
citizens.

ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck.

0:-]

People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge
for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot
of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as
now adults.

And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so.

Kane

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits






--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, toto wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote:

So far, of the research that done so, non-cp
alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by
anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff.
There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but
anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are
much more likely to cooperate with adults.

"anecdotal"? What does that prove?

It proves that you either have to accept that as her understanding of
her experience, or believe she is subjective, biased, possibly a liar,
and does not know what she sees.

Or it's just an opinion!

Now given MY experience of YOU and HER in these newsgroups, which of you
do you think I'd chose has having the best experience, the best
education, and the most objective viewpoint on the subject under
discussion?

What you chose to believe is irrelevant to me.


Doan

You a teacher are you? Worked with children much? Studied child
psychology and learning theory as part of a degree program?

No. But Dr. Dobson has a Ph.D. and more. Here is what I found with
a simple search:

"Dobson holds a doctorate in child development from the University of
Southern California (1967). He was an Associate Clinical Professor of
Pediatrics at the University of Southern California School of Medicine for
fourteen years. He spent seventeen years on the staff of the Children's
Hospital of Los Angeles in the Division of Child Development and Medical
Genetics.

He is a licensed psychologist in California, and is listed in Who's Who in
Medicine and Healthcare. He also has a long list of honorary doctorates
from various institutions."

Are you arguing that we should believe Dr. Dobson now? ;-)

Done much time in the classroom with
little children? Other than when you were a spanked child, that is?

Seen a lot of kids in the classroom have you, for comparative assessment
of methods of teaching?

I'd presume toto has done all this and more and seen hundreds, possibly
thousands of children in learning environments to make such assessments.

And she's likely been required to as part of her profession.

And you?

Me? I am just a little boy who like to point out that the anti-spanking
zealotS emperors have no clothes on. Hey, some like LaVonne, doesn't even
have a penis! ;-)

Doan

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

0:- wrote:

....correction....see ***

toto wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote:

So far, of the research that done so, non-cp
alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by
anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff.
There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but
anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are
much more likely to cooperate with adults.
Toto, need I remind you of the mendacious Doan and his posting in ways
he considers "clever?"

This point has been brought up before.

In reference to Straus, which those Doan quotes review critically, the
non-CP ... notice he says "CP" and you say "punishment?" While CP is
always punishment by definition, not all punishment is CP.

Straus's finding was flawed for the purpose of our discussion because he
did NOT find non-PUNISHMENT methods less successful but NON-CP methods,
three (3) of which were in fact punishment tactics.

The fact the subjects did not improve or worsened isn't proof non
*** CP methods don't work if they are punishment, but that in lieu of
CP they are not much
better, maybe even worse.


So are you calling for a ban on all punishments? If not, why not?

Nope.

And Because I don't call for a ban on everything I disagree with.

So some, as you admitted, even worse than spanking, yet you don't wan to
ban them. I see.

Are you calling for support of spanking nationwide?

Where have you been? It's legal in all 50 stated, STUPID!

How about school paddling?

I let it decide on the local levels.

If not, why not?

It's none of my damn business.

Doan

Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, toto wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote:

So far, of the research that done so, non-cp
alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by
anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff.
There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but
anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are
much more likely to cooperate with adults.

"anecdotal"? What does that prove?
It proves that you either have to accept that as her understanding of
her experience, or believe she is subjective, biased, possibly a liar,
and does not know what she sees.

Or it's just an opinion!

That's how it appeared to me.

On the other hand, we seek, in normal life, opinions of people,
hopefully, that have higher credibility.

My local country store owner, a friend, talks about a medical condition
I am interested in. He talked about how he was treated.

I listen because he's a friend, but believe it or not I PAY my doctor to
give me HIS opinion because he has more knowledge than my friend the
retail grocer.

Now between you and toto, I consider you the retail grocer...though
hardly my friend.

Now given MY experience of YOU and HER in these newsgroups, which of you
do you think I'd chose has having the best experience, the best
education, and the most objective viewpoint on the subject under
discussion?

What you chose to believe is irrelevant to me.

No, if it were you would not be as wonderfully dedicated to responding
to my beliefs as represented in my posting here as you are.

See how illogical you are, Doan?

You are out of touch with reality, even when it's something this simple.

I daresay you'd LIKE to not have any relevance concerning my beliefs,
but it's obvious through hundreds of posts that you indeed DO.

Doan

You a teacher are you? Worked with children much? Studied child
psychology and learning theory as part of a degree program?


I asked you three questions. You answered NOT one of them. Instead you
start trying to dodge by bringing up someone else and asking yet another
evasive, though stupid question below.

Why do you mislead like this, instead of answering the questions that
would in fact disqualify you as an expert in comparison to toto?

Dishonest maybe, Doan?

No. But Dr. Dobson has a Ph.D. and more. Here is what I found with
a simple search:

I'm more than passing familiar. When a persons training is confounded by
his or her beliefs I begin to look at his politics. That is his views
about society and how it should be.

"Dobson holds a doctorate in child development from the University of
Southern California (1967). He was an Associate Clinical Professor of
Pediatrics at the University of Southern California School of Medicine for
fourteen years. He spent seventeen years on the staff of the Children's
Hospital of Los Angeles in the Division of Child Development and Medical
Genetics.

He is a licensed psychologist in California, and is listed in Who's Who in
Medicine and Healthcare. He also has a long list of honorary doctorates
from various institutions."

Are you arguing that we should believe Dr. Dobson now? ;-)

No, there is more to a person than credentials.

If my doctor got four out of five diagnosis incorrect for me, and I
survived, I'd not believe him any longer. In the decades of health care
he's been wrong once. I forgive him, and of course, being able to think,
I know that leaving him for a new doctor that did NOT know me as well as
this one does would be risk to take.

Dobson has been wrong enough to make me prefer toto over Dobson.

I've been observing toto for quite a long time and can find very few
things were I'm sure she's wrong. In fact, I can't remember one...and
the real world tells me there must be some.

In fact, I will declare right now that toto is wrong.

I don't know specifically about what, but she has to be, not being
infallible.

I will say the same about Dobson, and with Dobson there is a laundry
list of things that aren't just "wrong" but sickeningly wrong.

I'll ask toto when I have a question about the subjects we discuss here,
not Dobson.

Done much time in the classroom with
little children? Other than when you were a spanked child, that is?

No response. chuckle

Seen a lot of kids in the classroom have you, for comparative assessment
of methods of teaching?

No response, again.

I'd presume toto has done all this and more and seen hundreds, possibly
thousands of children in learning environments to make such assessments.

And she's likely been required to as part of her profession.

And you?

Me? I am just a little boy who like to point out that the anti-spanking
zealotS emperors have no clothes on.

Except you are looking at the wrong people. Most arguments for spanking
is done by the "pantsless."

Hey, some like LaVonne, doesn't even
have a penis! ;-)

Presuming by her name she is female, that surprises you?

I take it you don't have any females in your life that will allow
intimacies.

Trust me, none of them do have penises.

Though some will lie about it. Fern, for instance.

Your closing your commentary in this post with such foolishness makes
clear that you had nothing but foolishness in mind. That you do not take
this debate seriously and your parents did spank a fool.


Doan

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

0:- wrote:

....correction....see ***

toto wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:49:15 -0700, Doan wrote:

So far, of the research that done so, non-cp
alternatives have fared no better, a fact acknowledged even by
anti-spanking researchers like Gershoff.
There has been NO study at all of non-punitive parenting, but
anecdotally, I can tell you that children raised non-punitively are
much more likely to cooperate with adults.
Toto, need I remind you of the mendacious Doan and his posting in ways
he considers "clever?"

This point has been brought up before.

In reference to Straus, which those Doan quotes review critically, the
non-CP ... notice he says "CP" and you say "punishment?" While CP is
always punishment by definition, not all punishment is CP.

Straus's finding was flawed for the purpose of our discussion because he
did NOT find non-PUNISHMENT methods less successful but NON-CP methods,
three (3) of which were in fact punishment tactics.

The fact the subjects did not improve or worsened isn't proof non
*** CP methods don't work if they are punishment, but that in lieu of
CP they are not much
better, maybe even worse.

So are you calling for a ban on all punishments? If not, why not?
Nope.

And Because I don't call for a ban on everything I disagree with.

So some, as you admitted, even worse than spanking, yet you don't wan to
ban them. I see.

No, you don't "see" at all. You presume with insinuation.

I did not discuss "everything" about non-CP punishments. Some might be
worse than others, even worse than CP. Those not only do I consider
banning, I do not have to campaign for them being banned.

THEY ARE BANNED ALREADY.

Child protection calls them psychological abuse and they are listed in
state statutes in some states.

Why would I campaign for a ban on something already banned?

Are you calling for support of spanking nationwide?

Where have you been? It's legal in all 50 stated, STUPID!

I didn't ask you if it was legal, or illegal. I asked if you were
calling for SUPPORT nationwide.

Do you support spanking?

I want to see you put our your lie again...the one where you claim you
just support parents making their own choice.

After all the years of posting against non-spanking advocates, AND NEVER
POSTING AGAINST SPANKING advocates you want us to believe your self
delusions?

I don't think so.

But it's fun to watch you try to sell it, thinking maybe there are some
newbies or fools that can't figure you out.

How about school paddling?

I let it decide on the local levels.

It's not a question about "let," it's a question about what YOU believe in.

If not, why not?

It's none of my damn business.

Yes it is unless you think yourself not a member of this society.

Refusal to speak, one way or the other is support for an existing
condition.

Especially when brought to your attention in a newsgroup you have
attended so regularly for so many years.

It's not like you don't know the issues.

So, are you for or against school paddling?

Or are you immoral and refuse to take a stand because it's "non of" your
"damn business?"

Doan

The children I worked with, teens, had as a single consistent symptom
between them, no matter how mild or severe their mental health problem,
the problem of social dysfunction.

They simply could not decide and act accordingly, so they did all kinds
of rather stupid, and sometimes dangerous behaviors instead...a way of
deciding and acting without thinking they decided.

My job was to help them understand that they always "decide," and do so
when they don't decide.

0:-


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like
Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the
"never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere?

You have proof all of these were "spanked?"

The probability is high, 90%+! Are you now claiming that Albert Einstein
were never spanked, AGAIN???

Why is that?

Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss
it, like some that are spanked do.

Hihihi! You did!

I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan.

Is that what LaVonne claimed? She survived the torture from her parents?
;-)

Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list
might have turned out to do had they not been.

You right. They could turn out just like you! ;-) But they sure seem
to be under-represented among great men in history. Do you think Gandhi
were spanked? ;-)

I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and
programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too.

Think they were spanked?

The probability is high, 90%+.

I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a
little of Toto's "bias" about CP.

Hihihi! A teacher back in the 50's? Hahaha. I just love it when
anti-spanking zealotS like you tried hard to fit that square peg into
the round hole. ;-)

And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked.

Nothing in his biography said that he pooped in his diaper either. Does
that prove that he did not? You are STUPID! ;-)

http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp
I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud
of it and want to include it in his biography?

It's one of the ordinary things that happenned to almost everyone, why
would any include that in his bio? I bet it didn't said that he was
ever punished either. Are you claiming that he was never punished too?

Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation
to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out
and ask him?

Go ahead and report back to us, ok? ;-)

He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy...

" Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda,
have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January
2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health
and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these
critical areas will be available for all people."

You! Great people. What your points?


Doan

Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:-

Your STUPIDITY is duly noted. ;-)

Doan




On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine.

I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open
relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time.
My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or
made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you
realized it you always apologized. Thank you."

I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I
am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline.

LaVonne
0:- wrote:

toto wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-"
wrote:

But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and
go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted
behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact,
"compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted.

It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive
measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will
make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding
them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices
and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning
illegitimate authority.

Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive
citizens.

ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck.

0:-]

People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge
for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot
of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as
now adults.

And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so.

Kane

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits






--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Doan wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
So any one of them grew up to be great leaders like MLK or a genius like
Albert Einster, or a humanitarian like Ted Turner? Where are the
"never-spanked" kids? They seem to be "under-represented" everywhere?
You have proof all of these were "spanked?"

The probability is high, 90%+!

Your proof being?

A percentage is not proof of an individual event.

Are you now claiming that Albert Einstein
were never spanked, AGAIN???

Since I didn't claim that before I could hardly be expected to do it
again. I posted the biographical information on him and his childhood.

Why is that?
Oh, because people that are unspanked don't feel compelled to discuss
it, like some that are spanked do.

Hihihi! You did!

And?

I always considered it an "I survived torture" kind of claim, Doan.

Is that what LaVonne claimed? She survived the torture from her parents?
;-)

I've no idea. I don't read minds as you seem to think you can do.

Who knows what any of those you think were spanked from your little list
might have turned out to do had they not been.

You right. They could turn out just like you! ;-) But they sure seem
to be under-represented among great men in history. Do you think Gandhi
were spanked? ;-)

Do you?

And there was a considerable population that did not consider Gandhi great.

And in fact hated him intensely.

You speak from a biased western perspective.

I wonder if the greatest humanitarian of today, in terms of dollars and
programs, was spanked. Bill Gates. And we might ask Warren Buffett too.

Think they were spanked?

The probability is high, 90%+.

Probability doesn't answer the question. Gates biography would come closer.

I notice that Bill's mother was a teacher. That might tend to give her a
little of Toto's "bias" about CP.

Hihihi! A teacher back in the 50's? Hahaha. I just love it when
anti-spanking zealotS like you tried hard to fit that square peg into
the round hole. ;-)

Odd, I went to school before then, and in the fifties. I knew a lot of
teachers that did not support spanking.

Bill was born on October 28, 1955. Do you wish to claim she spanked him
from birth, because she was a teacher in the 50's?

And nothing in his biography suggests he was spanked.

Nothing in his biography said that he pooped in his diaper either. Does
that prove that he did not? You are STUPID! ;-)

I didn't claim proof he had not been. So your question is rather stupid.

Nothing in his biography says he has a criminal record either.

http://beginnersinvest.about.com/cs/...llgatesmug.htm

"Busted!
Bill Gates
The richest man in the world was arrested in New Mexico on December 13,
1977. Not even he can hide from his past! Smile!"

I wonder how serious a traffic violation it was to warrant his arrest
and mug shot. Whew!

Yet, it doesn't mean a thing. The speculation is, Doan, was it likely
that he was spanked? Somewhere it's very possible there is information
that he was...but if there is not...?

http://www.answers.com/topic/bill-gates

Looks like his parents had a problem, and looks like they used another
tactic than CP, what do you think?

"In the introduction before his interview with Bill Gates, the BBC's
Jeremy Paxman said that the young Gates was "a difficult little sod
whose parents ended up sending him to a child psychologist because they
thought he was underachieving.""

Since they did a background on him do you think it unlikely they did not
ask about childhood discipline and had he been spanked it would NOT have
been mentioned in "Spank Happy Britain?"

I find it hard to reconcile a family that turns to a psychologist with
them being spankers. And just for UNDERACHIEVING. Had he been a really
difficult child he'd have been sent to a psychologist for sure.

http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp
I mean if he was spanked, like other famous people wouldn't he be proud
of it and want to include it in his biography?

It's one of the ordinary things that happenned to almost everyone, why
would any include that in his bio?

Are you saying it's not in MLK's or Ted Turner's bios?

Because it's often mentioned in people's bios when it happens.

I bet it didn't said that he was
ever punished either. Are you claiming that he was never punished too?

Are you asking if everything that is not in his bio I would claimed
therefor happened?

Your logic is wonderfully creative Doan.

Next time Gates does a product introduction why not wangle an invitation
to Redmond (I'll be there) or wherever he's appearing, and just call out
and ask him?

Go ahead and report back to us, ok? ;-)

You are arguing it's likely he was spanked, Doan. Not I.

He likely tops Ted Turner for philanthropy...

" Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda,
have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January
2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health
and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these
critical areas will be available for all people."

You!

Me! What?!

Great people. What your points?

Well, it could be that you bringing up "great people" that have likely
been spanked is an empty claim to support the practice of spanking as
having good outcomes.

And the people we are discussing may not be "good" at all. We have
little proof.

Many have some well known bad attributes.

Do you wish to attribute them to NOT being spanked?

Doan

Your advocacy for spanking is duly noted. 0:-

Your STUPIDITY is duly noted. ;-)

Anyone tapping your posting archives would have little difficulty in
more than two posts of noting that you are unwaveringly in support of
all pro spanking arguments, and opposed to all anti-spanking
arguments...and in addition are of questionable honestly when you claim
to be against beating children, but do NOT speak up with your cohort
defends parental beating of children.

Doan


0:-



On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

I don't know hundreds, but I know many. I also know mine.

I made many mistakes as a parent. I wasn't perfect. I have an open
relationship with my children, and we talk about this from time to time.
My youngest daughter (23) just told me, "You never hit me, hurt me, or
made fun of me. You did some kinda dumb things though. When you
realized it you always apologized. Thank you."

I look at my 27 and 23 year old daughters, and I am so proud of them. I
am so thankful that I never hit them in the name of discipline.

LaVonne
0:- wrote:

toto wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:38:07 -0700, "0:-"
wrote:

But parents that simply don't indulge in the 'punishment' model and
go with the supportive, coaching, corrective, validate wanted
behavior model consistently have high scores of compliance...in fact,
"compliance" is usually NOT even tracked, though COOPERATION is noted.
It is so evident to me when I see how kids react to these supportive
measures. Kids are learning. They won't be perfect and they will
make mistakes, but by accepting and validating their feelings, guiding
them to acceptable alternatives, kids learn how to make good choices
and how to comply with legitimate authority while questioning
illegitimate authority.
Egad, we could end up with a whole country full of responsible assertive
citizens.

ALARUM ALARUM! Run out the guns. Up the mizzen. All hands on deck.

0:-]

People that have been raising their children this way to my knowledge
for the past 40 years (I was one) know of which you speak. I know a lot
of them and I'm hard pressed to find ONE bad apple in these children as
now adults.

And I know hundreds of them personally and more less so.

Kane

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)