kids and their furniture?

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:


And I keep trying to say that I'm not
*noticing* anything in that case. If someone
loaned me a widget, I would look at the widget
and what it was made of and not do anything
that would have me returning it looking any
different than I received it.

Well, the only way to be absolutely certain something is in exactly the
same condition is to not use it at all. A book that's been read WILL
have more body oils on it, and the spine WILL be bent just a little
further.

And if someone didn't want the state of their whatever changed in ANY
WAY -- they ought not be lending it out.

...and you wondered in a different exchange some weeks back why I'm so hesitant
to lend out my car...

Banty

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
not to be a burden and to be thoughtful. Now,
it is ungracious if you're the sort of person
who only gives and never lets anyone do for you.
Some people just can't stand the scales to be
"unbalanced" and keep playing a sort of one-upsmanship
game to make sure that everyone always owes them
and they never owe anyone else. If that's your
MIL, I can see that getting annoying too.

My IL's are wonderful. They really take care of us when we visit them, and
they take care of us when they visit us. It makes me feel badly, though,
because I'm never allowed to reciprocate. Sometimes, it makes me wonder if
they don't let me do anything because they don't like how I'm doing them. I
have to insist on doing my own dishes, because after they've done all the
cooking and shopping, I can't stand the thought of them also cleaning up;
but they do most of that, too. DH says it's because his mom still wants to
mother him. I guess it's true. He knows them best, but it makes me feel
bad, because I really want to reciprocate.

Part of my problem is I can't really cook a 5 course meal like MIL does and
she does it really fancy. I'm more a one pot supper girl and not much of a
cook anyway. We do really simple meals. We try to take them out to
dinners, but the scales are very unbalanced.

I feel very lucky to have landed the IL's I have, so I just try and remind
myself that there are people who would kill to be in my shoes.

In article ,
Banty wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:


And I keep trying to say that I'm not
*noticing* anything in that case. If someone
loaned me a widget, I would look at the widget
and what it was made of and not do anything
that would have me returning it looking any
different than I received it.

Well, the only way to be absolutely certain something is in exactly the
same condition is to not use it at all. A book that's been read WILL
have more body oils on it, and the spine WILL be bent just a little
further.

And if someone didn't want the state of their whatever changed in ANY
WAY -- they ought not be lending it out.

..and you wondered in a different exchange some weeks back why I'm so hesitant
to lend out my car...

Banty


No -- I understand why you're hesitant.

I was astonished that it upset you that someone else offered to drive,
that you thought that that was an out-of-line thing to do.

I know that some folks don't like having anyone else drive their car. I
feel differently, but am not offended that some folks are more --
looking for the right word here -- possessive? protective? But it
never occurred to me that, if I offered to drive (or even ASKED to drive
if it was a car I was dying to drive) the person I asked would be
offended by just being asked. How hard is it to smile and say, "No,
thanks. I don't let anyone else drive my car."

But if you DID lend your car out, you'd expect that it would come back
with a little less tire tread, and a little more wear and tear on the
engine -- not much, not enough to notice -- but a there would be
"normal" use wear and tear. There would have to be -- it isn't possible
to drive a care WITHOUT any wear and tear.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
bizby40 wrote:
it, I'd ask. So, even if I'd grown up like
you thinking that paperback books were
disposable, I would still treat someone *else's*
paperback books in such a way as to avoid any
state change--not just something that *I'd*
consider damage, but anything that would change
its appearance.

Sometimes using things in the manner in which
they are intended to be used causes a change
in appearance. The Yahtzee pads are a good
example of that. Anything edible. Anything
which needs a seal broken.

Almost anything you use will cause at least a
little "wear and tear." You use someone's
pencil, you wear down the tip. You use the
eraser, it's got a black smudge on it and is
no longer quite the same shape. You sit on
their couch and put a little extra wear on the
springs. You sleep on their sheets, and they
are one wash cycle closer to the trash bin.

Paperback books are not all that durable.
Even being careful, the book is almost
certain to fan a bit more when you return
it than when you borrowed it.

Either your MIL is playing games with you
or she isn't. If she is, you've got plenty of
reason to be upset over her behavior, but because
of the intentions behind it. If she's not playing
games with you, I honestly can't imagine why you
would think you had to treat her with kid gloves.

No, I don't think she's playing games. Nonetheless
an unequal relationship is uncomfortable whether
or not there is malicious intent behind it.

And we feel like we have to treat her with kid gloves
because we never know when a stray comment or
routine action will send her off in a frenzy of effort
and expense on our behalf.

Are you actually suggesting that people
should refrain from doing nice things for other
people for fear of making the other people feel
inadequate?

Oh, come on! I never said anything at all like
that!

of living? Do we really want to live in a world
where everything has to be tit-for-tat,

And I never said anything like that.

and every
act of kindness has to be interpreted as a
summons for a return favor

And I never said anything like that.

or an attempt to intimidate?

Okay, I did use the word intimidate. And it was
unkind. But I was rather stinging from some of
the things you said. The worst being the conversation
in which you said something like, "Well, my way
works! No one has ever complained about me."
And I said something like, "*shrug* Same here."
And you said something like, [paraphrased] "Oh,
sure they don't say anything while you are there.
But when *I* go to people's houses, not only
do they tell me how wonderful I am, but they
also tell me horror stories of people[implied]
like you."

I thought it was cruel of you to attempt to sow
seeds of doubt into every casual friendship and
acquaintance I ever had.

Bizby

In article , Rosalie B. says...

Ericka Kammerer wrote:


Honestly, to me it sounds more to me
like you have issues *yourself* with respect
to confidence or self esteem or whatever. I
realize that some people can be mean-spirited
and attempt to kill others with too much kindness,
and maybe that's what your MIL is doing, but
if not, good heavens, what's the issue? Why
on earth would you feel like you have to treat
her with kid gloves?

That may be (that she has confidence issues), but that is why she is
saying that she can't read the signals and why she objects to your
giving example after example of the signals that YOU have read.

Maybe I have confidence issues too - but I'm equally concerned how the heck I'm
supposed to know which one of my household practices are (in the words of one
here..) "abnormal" so that I can properly put my guests and my son's playmates
on notice as some here would have me do!

Banty

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:


And I keep trying to say that I'm not
*noticing* anything in that case. If someone
loaned me a widget, I would look at the widget
and what it was made of and not do anything
that would have me returning it looking any
different than I received it.

Well, the only way to be absolutely certain something is in exactly the
same condition is to not use it at all. A book that's been read WILL
have more body oils on it, and the spine WILL be bent just a little
further.

Exactly.

Most folks aren't quite that blatent, but it sounds to me like Bizby's
relative always makes sure she's fully aware of just how much care she's
taking to Not be a Burden.

No, it's not that she does that. She's the opposite in fact. "Oh,
it's nothing. I'm just putzing around." etc. But the effort that
she goes to becomes obvious after a while anyway, and then
you end up feeling guilty that you've caused it somehow. And...
well, she's just hard to explain. I used to feel really bad that I
got so frustrated with her because she was "only being nice"
and I had all these people telling me I was so lucky to have
a MIL like her, but then one day I was talking to my SIL
(BIL's wife) and it was like a dam opened as we each finally
opened up to each other. It was such a relief to find someone
who understood.

The funny thing is that without them ever saying the slightest
negative thing, I've always felt like I was a huge disappointment
to them. Then my SIL (who I always thought was the *good*
DIL) told me that she always figured they thought she was
pushy and obnoxious. I can't explain how all this negative
feeling came out of what sounds like niceness, but at least
now I don't feel alone.

Bizby

"Banty" wrote in message
...
Maybe I have confidence issues too - but I'm equally concerned how the
heck I'm
supposed to know which one of my household practices are (in the words of
one
here..) "abnormal" so that I can properly put my guests and my son's
playmates
on notice as some here would have me do!

But perhaps if *both* people are trying rather than either
expecting the other to take the whole burden, it's more
likely to work out better for all concerned.

Bizby

Barbara wrote:

You might not use the last one, but some other more clueless person
might.**So*we*keep*those*precious*score*pads*for *those*people*so*the
last sheet doesn't ever get used g

See I would hide the last one away somewhere and then use it as a
model after the other were gone.**Of*course,*I*also*remember*being
able to buy the score pads even when I was younger.

If I don't put stuff for the game away with the game, it will be
separated forever - never to be found again until the game has
disintegrated or been sold at a yard sale because we can't find the
score pads.

You could create a file with examples of one each of game pads, and
keep it in your file cabinet with other documents and receipts.**Or*you
could scan one, so that you always have an example.**With*respect*to
forms (not from games), I usually put a sticky on the last one,
reminding me to make copies before I write all over it.

Now its getting ridiculous!!!

You could create a word-processor document and do it all in fancy fonts
in a special directory on your hard drive labelled "games/spare_forms".

I mean its not hurting anyone else if Rosalie and I don't use any of the
sheets in our Yantse games. I mean, if we avoid using the forms most of
the time, we don't have to worry when our clueless friend uses a sheet,
because we've still got loads. If *we* use the sheets, then we have to
track how many are left and remember to do something when they are nearly
all gone.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:


And I keep trying to say that I'm not
*noticing* anything in that case. If someone
loaned me a widget, I would look at the widget
and what it was made of and not do anything
that would have me returning it looking any
different than I received it.


Well, the only way to be absolutely certain something is in exactly the
same condition is to not use it at all. A book that's been read WILL
have more body oils on it, and the spine WILL be bent just a little
further.

Sure. Nevertheless, there's a *huge* difference
between that and dog-earing pages and bending the book
in half, as Bizby described in her other post. I submit
that even if you have grown up in a home where that was
acceptable practice with paperbacks, you don't have to
conduct some sort of scientific study of who does what
to their paperbacks before borrowing a book. If you have
a simple rule that says you do your best to return things
in the same condition you received them, it is *automatically*
obvious that you don't dog-ear the pages, bend the book
in half, write on the pages, or whatever. Sure, maybe
you'll run into someone who loaned you the book so that
you could just handle it with gloves and not open it
and read it, but you're probably pretty safe on that
front.

It sounds to me like she's just trying
not to be a burden and to be thoughtful. Now,
it is ungracious if you're the sort of person
who only gives and never lets anyone do for you.
Some people just can't stand the scales to be
"unbalanced" and keep playing a sort of one-upsmanship
game to make sure that everyone always owes them
and they never owe anyone else. If that's your
MIL, I can see that getting annoying too.
Another thing that might be annoying is
if she is trying to send the message that she
thinks you can't manage on your own. I.e., does
she buy everyday things for you thinking that
you can't afford them on your own? That's
disrespectful too--just like always insisting
that you'll pay when you go out with your
adult children rather than letting them pay
sometimes and thereby acknowledging that they're
not dependent upon you.

There is another way that some people can annoy the crap out of me:
it's when they seem to always want me to be fully aware of just how
careful they are being to not inconvenience me, or to do nice things for
me. I know one or two like that. It isn't so much that they're always
asking: "Can I use this mug?" "Is it OK if I take some sugar for my
coffee?" "May I use your bathroom?" -- it's that in some sublte and
sometimes not-so-subtle ways, they make sure I know how much effort they
put into "not being a burden".

Sure. It's a form of passive aggression. It's not
nice. But there's a world of difference between that and
honest attempts to respect other people's stuff. I think
most people know when they're being toyed with in that way,
and there's usually some other history that goes along with
it.

For the woman who returned the borrowed car freshly washed, for example,
that was, indeed a lovely thing to do. But it wouldn't have felt quite
so lovely if you'd had to listen to 20 minutes about how difficult that
particular car wash had been to drive to, or about problems she had when
she got there, or that it was 20% more expensive than most car washes
("but I don't mind -- really -- I know it's the one you prefer.")

Most folks aren't quite that blatent, but it sounds to me like Bizby's
relative always makes sure she's fully aware of just how much care she's
taking to Not be a Burden.

And if that's the case, I totally agree that it's not
only annoying, but flat out rude. But if so, the problem isn't
that someone is trying to be too nice. The problem is that
someone is playing passive aggressive games. Someone who
does that can take the most innocuous, pleasant, normal,
kind things and turn them into attacks--that's the whole
point of that sort of behavior. They're *trying* to ****
you off while making it impossible for you to complain
about it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

bizby40 wrote:

The funny thing is that without them ever saying the slightest
negative thing, I've always felt like I was a huge disappointment
to them. Then my SIL (who I always thought was the *good*
DIL) told me that she always figured they thought she was
pushy and obnoxious. I can't explain how all this negative
feeling came out of what sounds like niceness, but at least
now I don't feel alone.

If you feel that way, there's a reason. It could
be your own insecurities, but if your SIL feels it too,
then there is likely something going on on your mother's
part. It's not usually the case that something that really
*is* well-intentioned comes off making you feel inadequate.
I suppose it could be some sort of massive miscommunication,
but you'll have to pardon me a bit if given what you've said
about your husband, I wonder a little bit about whether there's
*really* nothing going on with his mother, especially since
your SIL feels similarly. You might not be able to put
your finger on it, but there may well be something there.

Best wishes,
Ericka