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COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 4th 03, 01:04 AM
denise
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, so here's the story. (a bit long - sorry)

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago. At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding as she was losing too much
weight. Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again. Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed. We practically have to cram a bottle or finger feeding into her
mouth. I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.

I have seen *4* lactation consultants in the hospital (there for five
days) and 2 lactation consultants on an outpatient basis after that.
I cannot for the life of me get this child to BF. No matter what I
do. In fact, the last LC - GAVE ME A BOTTLE! Even she was like "um,
here's a bottle. I don't hold out a ton of hope for you".

I'm ready to SLAP the next person who sits there and berates me when
they find out I'm pumping and can't get her on the breast. I'm
trying!! Morning, noon and night, I am trying. I try at least four
times a day if not more and yesterday I got her one once but haven't
been able to since then and I've tried six times. Even my doctor said
most women would have thrown in the towel by now and I've tried it all
and not to feel guilty if I give her formula but I really, really want
this to work.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.
  #3  
Old August 4th 03, 01:31 AM
Charlotte M.
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!


"denise" wrote in message
...

Hi Denise,

I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions that I'm sure you've been
asked at least six times already, but your info will be helpful.

Also, I'm going to ask the UNthinkable: Can you post your answers without
trimming?

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago.


What type of drugs did you use through your labour? How far into your labour
were they administered? (As in hours into your labour AND how dilated you
were if you know.)

What type of drugs did you use for the epidural and when were they
administered?

At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding


What did you finger feed her and did you ever give her a bottle? If you did
give her a bottle, which brand nipple was it?

as she was losing too much
weight.


How much weight did she lose? Specifically, how much was she at birth and
how far did she drop by day 3? (I need to determine what percentage of her
weight she lost.)

Also, what was your due date compared to when you gave birth? Was she a
full-term baby?

How many times did you put her to the breast in a day?

Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.


That's still within normal parameters. :-)

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again.


What did she do when you tried to latch her? Did she scream and arch her
back? Did she make snorfling noises and whip her head back and forth in
frustration? Did she just lay there and do nothing?

Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed.


Noted.

We practically have to cram a bottle or finger feeding into her
mouth.


When you say finger feeding, do you mean a finger or do you mean a Haberman
bottle? How does she respond before you cram? How does she respond to having
food crammed in?

I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.


I bet.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.


Holy crow you've tried a LOT. In fact, my spider sense is that you've been
given too many things to try and not enough consistency. Let's see if we can
get rid of a whole pile of the stuff and get the babe back on your breast so
you can ditch the pump.

Me, I've never seen a suicidal newborn who prefers self-imposed death by
starvation, so I hold out LOADS of hope. You've come a long way already.


--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org


  #4  
Old August 4th 03, 04:19 AM
denise
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:31:27 GMT, "Charlotte M."
wrote:


"denise" wrote in message
...

Hi Denise,

I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions that I'm sure you've been
asked at least six times already, but your info will be helpful.

Also, I'm going to ask the UNthinkable: Can you post your answers without
trimming?

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago.


What type of drugs did you use through your labour? How far into your labour
were they administered? (As in hours into your labour AND how dilated you
were if you know.)


Water broke at 5:30 - at noon, only diated 1cm so they started pitocin
slowly. By 4, they were upping it, by 7, they were adding fentynol (?)
and kept upping the pitocin for what seems like every 30 minutes until
midnight even though I was 10 cm by 8pm. Finally had the csection at
2am.

What type of drugs did you use for the epidural and when were they
administered?


Had an epidural around 5pm I think. It was a "light" epidural. I
have no idea what drugs they used.

What did you finger feed her and did you ever give her a bottle? If you did
give her a bottle, which brand nipple was it?

Gave her a bottle when we came home. Finger feeding just wasn't
cutting it anymore as she was up to almost 2 ounces by day 6. Finger
feeding her my colostrum and supplementing with hospital provided
Nutragimen. Pumping my own milk to bottle feed and occasionally
supplementing with soy-based formula as well. Started out with Dr.
Brown bottles but the lactation consultant told us to switch to Avent.
as she was losing too much
weight.


How much weight did she lose? Specifically, how much was she at birth and
how far did she drop by day 3? (I need to determine what percentage of her
weight she lost.)


Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight. She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.

Also, what was your due date compared to when you gave birth? Was she a
full-term baby?


Gave birth at 37w3days.

How many times did you put her to the breast in a day?

Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.

What did she do when you tried to latch her? Did she scream and arch her
back? Did she make snorfling noises and whip her head back and forth in
frustration? Did she just lay there and do nothing?

She licks, then thrashes and will NOT open her mouth all the way. Then
cries, roots, cries, screams, won't open her mouth - roots the
opposite way, they goes into full ultra-sonic panic mode. Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.

When you say finger feeding, do you mean a finger or do you mean a Haberman
bottle? How does she respond before you cram? How does she respond to having
food crammed in?


Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.

I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.


I bet.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.


Holy crow you've tried a LOT. In fact, my spider sense is that you've been
given too many things to try and not enough consistency. Let's see if we can
get rid of a whole pile of the stuff and get the babe back on your breast so
you can ditch the pump.

Me, I've never seen a suicidal newborn who prefers self-imposed death by
starvation, so I hold out LOADS of hope. You've come a long way already.


I don't feel like it.
Thanks for any help.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org



  #5  
Old August 4th 03, 04:27 AM
Lara
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

denise wrote:

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago. At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding as she was losing too much
weight. Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again. Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed.


I hear you, Denise.
I'm afraid I can't help too much with getting your little one on to the
breast, but I'm sure others here will have ideas to try. Luke and I went
through a similar start - complete refusal/inability to latch from the
beginning (I had an abundant supply, but still no dice). We had a couple
of other issues contributing to the difficulty - nothing that should
have been a deal-breaker, but it all added up to no latch despite good
LCs, skin-skin time, mucking around with nipple shields, finger feeding,
re-admission for intensive LC input, etc. I only came to terms with the
possibility that he might never latch at around the four to five month
mark, and I still offer.

I ended up exclusively pumping, and am still going strong at nearly ten
months. It was VERY difficult at first, but it got much easier in a
practical sense as time went on. If you end up pumping for a while, I'm
happy to answer any questions. Top two tips - rent a good hospital-grade
double pump (I use the Medela Symphony), and rig up or buy a hands-free
pumping bra.

A wonderful and supportive partner helps a lot, too.

Lara
  #6  
Old August 4th 03, 06:28 AM
Charlotte M.
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Posts: n/a
Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!


"denise" wrote in message
...

Water broke at 5:30 - at noon, only diated 1cm so they started pitocin
slowly. By 4, they were upping it, by 7, they were adding fentynol (?)
and kept upping the pitocin for what seems like every 30 minutes until
midnight even though I was 10 cm by 8pm. Finally had the csection at
2am.


That's one heck of a birth story.

What I'm looking for in here is whether or not your baby was born doped up
on medical pain relief. From what you've told me, the answer is yes on this.

Part one in unravelling this is that your baby has probably still got a
massive headache from the birth. The drugs take much longer to clear out of
a baby's system than it does yours and this can affect all of your baby's
responses and cues. Besides which, it's plain old hard to think about much
when your apple-sized head hurts.

So, there's clue one. If your baby is still cleaning out the meds, your baby
may be a baby with a crappy suck for a few more weeks.... which is to say
that this MIGHT be a temporary situation. (More below. I'm not done yet.)

Gave her a bottle when we came home.


Alrighty. This is a second important clue. You may also be dealing with a
baby with nipple confusion. So, a dopey baby with a headache and nipple
confusion is what I'm guesstimating so far.

BTW, the reason why I'm asking all this stuff is because I'm shooting in the
dark. You're not sitting in my office where I can see you and see what's
going on. Posting on MKB is a long process that involves both of us sitting
at computers trying to answer crazy questions. In the end, I may be able to
help you with some more options to try... and maybe not. However, if I can
get as much info as possible, I might be able to make some better
guesstimates.

Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight.


This is totally normal. WAY normal. I have another few questions in he
was she diagnosed with jaundice or dehydration?

She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.


HOLY huge weight gain!

Gave birth at 37w3days.


OK. She was slightly undercooked by some standards, but a healthy weight.

Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.


Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

She licks, then thrashes and will NOT open her mouth all the way. Then
cries, roots, cries, screams, won't open her mouth - roots the
opposite way, they goes into full ultra-sonic panic mode.


OK... another question in he what was she suctioned with at birth? Did
you or your spouse see it and can you describe it?

Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.


LOL. That is 100% normal behaviour. In a few weeks, you'll look back on that
and wonder what happened?

Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.


OK. I'm pretty sure I know what is going on. If you can give me some answers
to the questions above, I'm going to make some educated guesses and what
you're dealing with.

The good news is that I think you'll be able to deal with the problems...
and yes, that word was plural. The hard news is that you're going to need
some serious patience AND you will definitely need your partner or someone
to help solve the problem. You can do it alone, but you'll solve it easier
if you have an extra set of hands.

I don't feel like it.


Well, you've last almost twenty days and you've used as many resources as
you could find. This is no small amount of work and you should be very proud
that you have done as much as you have. You're abviously committed to your
baby.

Thanks for any help.


You're welcome. I just hope I can help. :-(
The internet has its limits.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org


  #7  
Old August 4th 03, 07:48 AM
Jenrose
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!


"denise" wrote in message
...
OK, so here's the story. (a bit long - sorry)

snip I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.


Have you tried this...

1. Switch to cup feeds (small cup feeder--something she can't suck on)
2. No pacifiers, no breast, no NOTHING to suck on for 24 hours. Including
your finger. She is NOT going to like this, but the point is to tap into her
NEED to suck.
3. Quit trying to latch her on for about 24 hours. If necessary, quit trying
to latch her on for about 2 days. It's an emotionally loaded battle right
now and you have to quit fighting for a few days to give her a chance to get
out of "defense" mode. It sounds to me like she's caught up in a pattern of
fighting feeds. The trick is to break the cycle and sometimes,
chinese-finger-trap-style, you have to quit fighting in order to get out of
the trap.
4. Feed her as often as she wants to eat, but only from a cup or
spoon--nothing she can suck on.
5. Encourage her to open her mouth wide--the "big o" game (you make a big
wide open mouth, she may imitate it), just as a game, separate from feeding.
If she starts making kissy faces like she desperately wants to suck on
something, bring her up near your breast and if she roots her way onto the
nipple, fine, but don't make a big deal about it if she does or doesn't.
6. When she's gone about 24 hours without any of her usual suckies (finger,
whatever), try this:

a) With your nipple or your finger (finger if she fights being at the
breast, nipple if she's okay being up to your breast), tickle her lip. If
she opens wide, she can suck. If she doesn't, don't force the issue and
don't let her nibble her way on. You're asking permission to put something
in her mouth and she's giving it or not.

b) Watch her. Whenever she opens her mouth wide, smile and say "yes! Open!"
Even if you're not trying to feed her. When she opens her mouth wide, tickle
her cheek and smile. If she starts opening her mouth wide and turning toward
your finger you're halfway there. Let her latch on to your finger or nipple
if she manages to do it herself, but don't push it.

c) Do not push anything into her mouth, period. That's the point of the cup
feeding (the cap that goes over a bottle nipple works well, btw...), to get
nutrition into her without forcing things into her mouth. If she reaches for
something or tries to latch, that's different. But it has to be from her.
Use a little milk syringe and drip it just between her lips if you have to,
but don't push anything larger than the very tip of that syringe into her
mouth.

After the first 24 hours of no-bottle/no-finger feed, I would recommend
getting in bed with her and staying topless. Keep her skin-to-skin as much
as possible. Don't get up except to pee--you'll need someone to help you out
with meals, diaper changes, washing the pump... I would keep her
skin-to-skin with you near your breasts for the next two days. Not "at the
breast", just within easy reach, skin-to-skin.

The underlying strategy here is this:

1. Stop the battle, break the negative "fight to feed, fight to latch, fight
to get mouth open" pattern.

2. Work on getting more positive associations with food, being skin-to-skin.
Do as much as possible to "unload" the emotional side of things.

3. Tap into her biological NEED to suck. Often, by both quitting the battle
and not offering "suckables" for a time, baby's need to suck will overwhelm
the "battle" pattern. Chances are the first few times you manage to get her
latched on will be when she's drowsy and maybe not particularly hungry, just
playing.

Several things stand out for me he

1. She has latched on successfully, both at birth and once recently. This
means she can, she just WON'T right now. It may well be that you have to go
for a week with no attempts at latch on and no finger feeds (cup instead) to
get to the point of her actually asking to suck on anything.

2. You've been doing an incredible job at being persistant and doing
everything within your power to make this work. Babies aren't "supposed" to
fight breastfeeding--it's really NOT your fault. The fact that you are still
pumping, still trying, still working very hard at making this work is great.

Now here's the other side. She might not latch on and nurse "as usual". It
just might not happen. So you may have a choice coming up of continuing to
pump or not continuing to pump. What would make pumping easier for you? What
makes it harder now? What kind of pump are you using?

Jenrose


  #8  
Old August 4th 03, 09:16 AM
KC
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't have alot of help for you, but just wanted to suggest a
different pumping routine which may be as effective, but get you a
little more sleep. What I did to build supply was every 2 hours with
a 4 hour space between pumpings at night to get sleep. Then to
maintain supply only every 3 hours with the 4 hour space at night. I
tend toward poor supply, so you may be able to build supply with the
three and four hour spacing.

I am curious what happened when you tried the nipple shield? Were you
able to cram that in her mouth successfully? and what is finger
feeding, is that feeding with a syringe?

Hang in there.

KC

(denise) wrote in message ...
OK, so here's the story. (a bit long - sorry)

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago. At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding as she was losing too much
weight. Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again. Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed. We practically have to cram a bottle or finger feeding into her
mouth. I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.

I have seen *4* lactation consultants in the hospital (there for five
days) and 2 lactation consultants on an outpatient basis after that.
I cannot for the life of me get this child to BF. No matter what I
do. In fact, the last LC - GAVE ME A BOTTLE! Even she was like "um,
here's a bottle. I don't hold out a ton of hope for you".

I'm ready to SLAP the next person who sits there and berates me when
they find out I'm pumping and can't get her on the breast. I'm
trying!! Morning, noon and night, I am trying. I try at least four
times a day if not more and yesterday I got her one once but haven't
been able to since then and I've tried six times. Even my doctor said
most women would have thrown in the towel by now and I've tried it all
and not to feel guilty if I give her formula but I really, really want
this to work.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.

  #9  
Old August 4th 03, 10:46 AM
Iuil
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Posts: n/a
Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Jenrose" wrote

snipped

I'm coming late to this but I want to echo everything that Jen has said (so
much so that I'm saving her post for future reference!). My DD was
hospitalised for latch retraining at 8 weeks - the staff there used exactly
the same method. As long as the baby is getting food (and the cup is a very
good way to go about it), you can take weeks to work on the latch.

My DD realised very quickly that she was only going to get to suck if she
took the breast properly and is still nursing at 13 months.

2. You've been doing an incredible job at being persistant and doing
everything within your power to make this work. Babies aren't "supposed"

to
fight breastfeeding--it's really NOT your fault. The fact that you are

still
pumping, still trying, still working very hard at making this work is

great.

I left this bit in because you have to keep telling yourself that you're NOT
failing. I cried buckets, in front of doctors, nurses, dieticians etc
because I thought I was to blame. But the best place for support is going
to come from home, from your DH and anyone else who's going to be around a
lot. You don't need negative energies around you because that only feeds
the insecurities. If they don't already realise how important this is for
you then you either have to make them understand or ask them to leave.

Jean

--
"And he said:
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of
Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, and
though they are with you, yet they belong not to you." Khalil Gibran

Return address is unread. Replies to firstnamelastname @eircom.net.


  #10  
Old August 5th 03, 12:04 AM
Chotii
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Default COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Jenrose" wrote in message
...

a) With your nipple or your finger (finger if she fights being at the
breast, nipple if she's okay being up to your breast), tickle her lip. If
she opens wide, she can suck. If she doesn't, don't force the issue and
don't let her nibble her way on. You're asking permission to put something
in her mouth and she's giving it or not.


Please let me wade in on this with my unique perspective: One of my twins
became extremely orally defensive/aversive in part (but only in part)
because we continued to force a bottle nipple into her mouth over her
protests, for weeks. (She had congenital defects to her stomach, and a very
sensitive gag reflex that also contributed.) It's extremely important to
understand that you cannot make a child enjoy eating by forcing it, any more
than you can (pardon my graphic parallel here) than you can make someone
enjoy sex by forcing it on them.

c) Do not push anything into her mouth, period.


A baby experiences their whole world through their mouth. If they decide
that mouth = negative, then you're setting yourself, and your baby, up for
all kinds of grief you really don't want to find out about. Like g-tubes,
and years of therapy, which my daughter has, and has been going to now for 3
1/2 years.

Now, please don't panic. My situation is a worst-case scenario, compounded
by many factors that aren't there in your case. But do listen to these wise
ladies here. I don't think your sitution is unresolvable at this point, by
any means. *I* don't have any advice on how best to overcome your problems
because I didn't overcome them (had bad advice, plus other stuff.) But I
believe these ladies here can help.

--angela


 




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