dual immersion

DS knows Spanish and English. We speak English at home, and the dcp only
speaks Spanish. So, when it comes time for kindy in a few years, DS will
have the opportunity to be in a dual immersion program where 50% of the
classes are in English and 50% are taught entirely in Spanish. I like this
idea, but DH thinks DS will grow up to be only so-so in both languages. I
can see how the written language may suffer some, and it's only a
theoretical risk; but other than that, I don't see a problem. Has anyone
else had their child in a dual immersion program? What did you think? If
we don't do that, DS would still know Spanish, as it's spoken frequently in
this area, and I intend to hold onto the dcp for after school care. Would
it be better to keep him in an English only program until he's older, so
that his English reading and writing skills have more time to be ingrained?
He could always learn to read and write in Spanish in high school, though
maybe he won't do it as well if he learns it so late. This is a few years
down the line, but I'm always one to think ahead.

"toypup" wrote in message
news:sVsgb.702557$uu5.116149@sccrnsc04...
DS knows Spanish and English. We speak English at home, and the dcp only
speaks Spanish. So, when it comes time for kindy in a few years, DS will
have the opportunity to be in a dual immersion program where 50% of the
classes are in English and 50% are taught entirely in Spanish. I like
this
idea, but DH thinks DS will grow up to be only so-so in both languages. I
can see how the written language may suffer some, and it's only a
theoretical risk; but other than that, I don't see a problem. Has anyone
else had their child in a dual immersion program? What did you think? If
we don't do that, DS would still know Spanish, as it's spoken frequently
in
this area, and I intend to hold onto the dcp for after school care. Would
it be better to keep him in an English only program until he's older, so
that his English reading and writing skills have more time to be
ingrained?
He could always learn to read and write in Spanish in high school, though
maybe he won't do it as well if he learns it so late. This is a few years
down the line, but I'm always one to think ahead.



I don't think its ever too early to begin thinking about teaching kids other
languages. I grew up speaking English and Spanish at about the same rate as
your child. English at home, Spanish in a school program and with
babysitters and family friends.
Its much easier to learn a foreign language when you're young. Knowing one
foreign language is a good base for learning other languages. I've since
moved on to Russian.
I don't believe that my English suffered, at all, as a result of not being
fully devoted to learning one language in childhood. If anything, knowing
Spanish helped me understand "root words" and expanded my vocabulary in high
school.
I say go with your gut, but I don't think any harm could come from the dual
immersion program.

-D




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Hi -

There are three different dual-language immersion programs in our area
(Washington DC), all of which are very highly regarded. You might want
to give them a call or look at their web sites to get some information
on how that kind of program works. The schools a

The Washington International School (DC)
The Rock Creek International School (DC)
Rolling Terrace Elementary School (in Takoma Park, MD)

We have our kids in a 1-way immersion program (Spanish, you must already
speak fluent English to enter). I don't really know how the two kinds
of programs compare. I DO know that kids with two languages often lag
until about 3rd grade, but then pull ahead of their peers not only in
lanugage, but in mathematics. (I read one study; it was SES corrected.)

I also know that kids who don't study their first language in an
academic fashion in elementary school (as is the case with many native
Spanish speakers in our area) can't keep up with the immersion kids in
Spanish when they hit middle school. You'll also notice that many
colleges now offer courses in academic Spanish for native speakers of
the language who don't have a background in reading and writing
academically in Spanish. (I saw the Yale book of courses, recently, and
it had a series of such classes for native Spanish speakers who couldn't
yet take regular Spanish literature courses.)

I hope this helps.
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...
We have our kids in a 1-way immersion program (Spanish, you must already
speak fluent English to enter). I don't really know how the two kinds
of programs compare. I DO know that kids with two languages often lag
until about 3rd grade, but then pull ahead of their peers not only in
lanugage, but in mathematics. (I read one study; it was SES corrected.)

I also know that kids who don't study their first language in an
academic fashion in elementary school (as is the case with many native
Spanish speakers in our area) can't keep up with the immersion kids in
Spanish when they hit middle school. You'll also notice that many
colleges now offer courses in academic Spanish for native speakers of
the language who don't have a background in reading and writing
academically in Spanish. (I saw the Yale book of courses, recently, and
it had a series of such classes for native Spanish speakers who couldn't
yet take regular Spanish literature courses.)

I hope this helps.

Yes, it's very insightful. How much time is spent out of your child's
school day learning Spanish? Do you see his English reading and writing
skills suffering at all? I know they say kids with two languages eventually
pull ahead, but do they mean only kids who are bilingual because their
family speaks a different language or are they referring to the kids in the
immersion programs? I understand that kids from bilingual families can do
quite well, but those kids are schooled 100% in English. I'm wondering
about kids who only spend 50% of their time being schooled in English.

In response to your questions:

----------------- the questions ---------------
Yes, it's very insightful. How much time is spent out of your child's
school day learning Spanish? Do you see his English reading and writing
skills suffering at all? I know they say kids with two languages
eventually pull ahead, but do they mean only kids who are bilingual
because their family speaks a different language or are they referring
to the kids in the immersion programs? I understand that kids from
bilingual families can do quite well, but those kids are schooled 100%
in English. I'm wondering about kids who only spend 50% of their time
being schooled in English.

--------------------------- end questions ---------------

My kids are in school for 6 1/2 hours each weekday. Of that time, about
four hours are spent exclusively in Spanish. (The others include lunch,
recess, English (starting in 2nd grade -- age 8) and specialists (art,
music, library ...).)

We work with the kids on reading and writing at home. Those English
language skills haven't suffered at all. I did notice that some of the
kids in my older child's class had trouble learning to read in English
(Spanish is much easier, after all) but ALL were fluent readers by the
end of 2nd grade.

The study, as I recall, indicated that children in immersion programs
lagged behind their peers in **their native language** until 3rd grade.
provided that they received SOME academic instruction in their native
language, they caught up with their peers during the 3rd grade year and
surpassed them soon thereafter. An hour a day seems to be sufficient
(not from the study, but based on my observation of my older child's
class).

I think if you go to the AskERIC web site you may find some studies on
the 2-language topic. If you can't find them doing a search of the
database, don't hesitate to submit a question. The specialists there
are very helpful, and it's all FREE.

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"toypup" wrote in message news:sVsgb.702557$uu5.116149@sccrnsc04...
DS knows Spanish and English. We speak English at home, and the dcp only
speaks Spanish. So, when it comes time for kindy in a few years, DS will
have the opportunity to be in a dual immersion program where 50% of the
classes are in English and 50% are taught entirely in Spanish. I like this
idea, but DH thinks DS will grow up to be only so-so in both languages. I
can see how the written language may suffer some, and it's only a
theoretical risk; but other than that, I don't see a problem. Has anyone
else had their child in a dual immersion program? What did you think? If
we don't do that, DS would still know Spanish, as it's spoken frequently in
this area, and I intend to hold onto the dcp for after school care. Would
it be better to keep him in an English only program until he's older, so
that his English reading and writing skills have more time to be ingrained?
He could always learn to read and write in Spanish in high school, though
maybe he won't do it as well if he learns it so late. This is a few years
down the line, but I'm always one to think ahead.

I'm not familiar with the dual immersion program for school in the US,
but I am around many bilingual families (in some cases trilingual when
the dcp speaks a 3rd language) and grew up with many bilingual
friends. Also, many of these kids are currently in the local
equivalent of a 'dual imersion' program, just not in the US. My
partner and I each have a different native language and intend to
raise our kids bilingual. (Schooling will depend upon what country we
are living in at the time)

Speaking from this experience and observations, your child *will*
likely be a little behind in each language *at first*. Very quickly he
will catch up. To me, that is far better than trying to learn the
second language later. I would do everything possible to continue his
Spanish education throughout. The *best* time to fully learn a
language is when they are young. Yes, it WILL be somewhat confusing
and perhaps take a little extra time to sort out the two, but in time,
if he continues, he'll be fluent in both.

In many countries, a second language (often English) is introduced in
the earliest grades. However, these aren't usually immersion 50/50
programs. If you are at all concerned, I'd consider a school that
taught in English but had Spanish classes from day 1 (as opposed to
waiting until high school).

Your child is fortunate, IMO. Growing up bilingual (with any language)
is a huge advantage.

"XOR" wrote in message
om...
I'm not familiar with the dual immersion program for school in the US,
but I am around many bilingual families (in some cases trilingual when
the dcp speaks a 3rd language) and grew up with many bilingual
friends. Also, many of these kids are currently in the local
equivalent of a 'dual imersion' program, just not in the US. My
partner and I each have a different native language and intend to
raise our kids bilingual. (Schooling will depend upon what country we
are living in at the time)

Speaking from this experience and observations, your child *will*
likely be a little behind in each language *at first*. Very quickly he
will catch up. To me, that is far better than trying to learn the
second language later. I would do everything possible to continue his
Spanish education throughout. The *best* time to fully learn a
language is when they are young. Yes, it WILL be somewhat confusing
and perhaps take a little extra time to sort out the two, but in time,
if he continues, he'll be fluent in both.

In many countries, a second language (often English) is introduced in
the earliest grades. However, these aren't usually immersion 50/50
programs. If you are at all concerned, I'd consider a school that
taught in English but had Spanish classes from day 1 (as opposed to
waiting until high school).

Your child is fortunate, IMO. Growing up bilingual (with any language)
is a huge advantage.

I understand the advantage of being bilingual. I was bilingual as a child,
but lost it as I grew up. I just wonder if schooling completely 50/50 is
good. I'd like it better if they had it 80/20 or so throughout grade school
so that his English would be stronger. I just wonder if his fluency in
English reading and writing would be just as strong if it was 50/50. I've
never known anyone who was schooled 50/50, but I know many bilingual
families and was raised in one myself. When I was young, we had our native
language taught once a week on the weekends. That was enough to learn basic
reading and writing. It's just the excessive schooling that DH is so
concerned about, and I have some reservations myself after he brought up his
concerns.

DS will always know Spanish, I believe, because it is such a common language
around here, so I'm not afraid that he'll lose it. I'm just wondering how
much formal education he should have in it.

"toypup" wrote in message news:UkFgb.706327$uu5.116329@sccrnsc04...

I understand the advantage of being bilingual. I was bilingual as a child,
but lost it as I grew up. I just wonder if schooling completely 50/50 is
good. I'd like it better if they had it 80/20 or so throughout grade school
so that his English would be stronger. I just wonder if his fluency in
English reading and writing would be just as strong if it was 50/50. I've
never known anyone who was schooled 50/50, but I know many bilingual
families and was raised in one myself. When I was young, we had our native
language taught once a week on the weekends. That was enough to learn basic
reading and writing. It's just the excessive schooling that DH is so
concerned about, and I have some reservations myself after he brought up his
concerns.

In a 50/50 program, based on the kids I know in similar school
situations here, I would probably expect him to lag behind for awhile.
But I would also expect him to not only catch up but move beyond his
peers after a few years. If there was an 80/20 program (or I'd prefer
60/40), I'd probably lean slightly towards that myself. But if the
choice is between 50/50 or nothing, I'd go with the 50/50. Your DH's
concerns, IME, are valid. But unless your child has other learning
disabilities, the lack of fluency won't last very long, and the
learning experience is better in the long run.

DS will always know Spanish, I believe, because it is such a common language
around here, so I'm not afraid that he'll lose it. I'm just wondering how
much formal education he should have in it.

I'd go for full formal education, speaking from my own experience. I
grew up not in a bilingual household but in a heavily Spanish speaking
community (my grandparents frowned upon speaking Spanish - "we're in
the US. Speak English!", so my mother did not grow up bilingual).
However, as most of my childhood friends were children of immigrants
or immigrants themselves, I spoke Spanish regularly with them and
their parents. However, I never had formal schooling in it, and I
highly regret that. For dumb reasons I chose to study other languages
when I got to high school and college - esp because "I am always
around it so it's not necessary." I taught myself to read and write
it. I have lived in a Spanish speaking country and managed, and when
in the US I live in a very heavily Spanish speaking community, so I am
exposed to it on a daily basis, but the lack of formal training in it
has frustrated me - and I tend to speak it like a kid, because that
was my most intensive exposure to it. Yes, I know this is my own fault
now . For other reasons (work, and my partner), I've got two other
languages on my plate now, so Spanish is still taking a back seat....

So, in sum, I'd go with pushing the formal education from Day 1. Yes,
he'll probably be less fluent in both languages for awhile, but at 6
years old, is that a huge problem? It won't suffer for long, and soon,
he'll be more fluent in both.


fwiw - locally, many of the kids I know are in trilingual situations
at least: their native language, the local language, and english.
School is english and the local language (some schools are 50/50, some
more like 80/20), and their native language is spoken at home, unless
the parents speak two languages, in which case there's yet another
involved.... There are at least 4 languages commonly spoken in this
town, and that's just the locals, not including the foreigners!

"toypup" wrote in message news:UkFgb.706327$uu5.116329@sccrnsc04...
DS will always know Spanish, I believe, because it is such a common language
around here, so I'm not afraid that he'll lose it. I'm just wondering how
much formal education he should have in it.

Already posted a much longer response, but what I should have said
more simply, is that I don't think it's best to *rely* on "such a
common language" to *teach* it. Unless he's actually living in a place
where *only* Spanish is spoken and he is forced to use it daily, all
the time, he likely won't once it becomes easier to use English. And,
in such circumstances, more commonly you get "Spanglish."

I can't fully comment on whether the immersion vs as-a-second-language
programs are best, but do think intensive formal education in the
language is necessary from an early age (ie not one hour a week).

I STRONGLY agree with XOR who said:

"I can't fully comment on whether the immersion vs as-a-second-language
programs are best, but do think intensive formal education in the
language is necessary from an early age (ie not one hour a week)."

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.